Restoring estrogen / test balance

I

interleukin

Bluelighter
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
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111
It has been over 8 months since I finished my last cycle (tren/test). I used low doses of arimidex during the cycle and tamoxifene for PCT. I recently ran bloodwork showing highly elevated E2 levels.
Total test - 630 vs 850 pre cycle
E2 - 50 vs 22 pre cycle
Also, the boys are not at their normal size.

What is the best way to try and fix this? I'm thinking of running a short, mild cycle followed by an extensive PCT.
 
a cycle would be a stupid idea at this point if normalization of HPTA is a concern. I would suggest 10mg of aromasin everyday and 20mg of toremefine everyday also. This should get your boys back to order and also lower estrogen levels. Bloodwork after 45 days of this.

Has your bodyfat climbed since your cycle? This could lead to more estrogen.

Each cycle will never be fully recovered but a 200 point drop on test is shitty imo and is not full recovery (I'd expect full recovery to be around low 800s). Each cycle will damage your nuts and hypothalamus and pit gland. Eventually you'd need TRT. This is why I think cycling without being on TRT is stupid.
 
Matsuo Munefusa. said:
a cycle would be a stupid idea at this point if normalization of HPTA is a concern. I would suggest 10mg of aromasin everyday and 20mg of toremefine everyday also. This should get your boys back to order and also lower estrogen levels. Bloodwork after 45 days of this.

Has your bodyfat climbed since your cycle? This could lead to more estrogen.

Each cycle will never be fully recovered but a 200 point drop on test is shitty imo and is not full recovery (I'd expect full recovery to be around low 800s). Each cycle will damage your nuts and hypothalamus and pit gland. Eventually you'd need TRT. This is why I think cycling without being on TRT is stupid.
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Bodyfat hasn't increased since the cycle - I have lost a bunch of weight and some bodyfat. I dont think that can explain the doubling of estrogen values though. Also, I forgot to mention that I used hCG and HMG during the cycle. I ran bloodwork 2 months after the cycle and estrogen and testosterone levels were almost the same as now. So it seems like something has chronically upregulated the aromatase pathway.
Why do you think that stopping aromasin and torem won't cause a rebound back to current levels? Is there something about the combo that will permanantly lower aromatase funtion?
I was thinking of the mild cycle followed by some kind of comprehensive PCT as a way to try and reset the HPTA axis. Maybe thats not the best idea though as you mention.
I'm curious why you think a cycle will "damage" cells in the nuts, hypothalamus, pit and adrenal glands? Have there been studies done on this? I know excessive hCG use can damage testicular cells but I am not sure about high amounts of androgens. Do these cells (except the hypothalamus) even respond to androgens directly?
 
no dude you dont stop the AI/SERM. If you want levels near what you had then you gotta use those AIs and SERMs. You've damaged your HPTA. Sucks bro it happens to a lot of people with AAS.
 
Matsuo Munefusa. said:
no dude you dont stop the AI/SERM. If you want levels near what you had then you gotta use those AIs and SERMs. You've damaged your HPTA. Sucks bro it happens to a lot of people with AAS.
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Thanks. So I should be running the AIs and SERMs long term? Why do you think I should run the torem along with the aromasin? Shouldn't reducing estrogen levels (to normal levels) via aromasin bring testosterone levels up without the need for a SERM?
I thought that my problem was only excess estrogen conversion which casuses HPTA supression by itself. Never considered some kind of unfixable damage and am not completely convinced yet.
 
Matsuo Munefusa. said:
a cycle would be a stupid idea at this point if normalization of HPTA is a concern. I would suggest 10mg of aromasin everyday and 20mg of toremefine everyday also. This should get your boys back to order and also lower estrogen levels. Bloodwork after 45 days of this.

Has your bodyfat climbed since your cycle? This could lead to more estrogen.

Each cycle will never be fully recovered but a 200 point drop on test is shitty imo and is not full recovery (I'd expect full recovery to be around low 800s). Each cycle will damage your nuts and hypothalamus and pit gland. Eventually you'd need TRT. This is why I think cycling without being on TRT is stupid.
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THANK YOU , I don't care , at 25 I will never go off juice unless I am forced by living situation / legal situation.

I'm going to crash after my cycle and I have a sports doc around here for TRT , the HGH is a fucking joke take home piss in a bottle give it back in 24 hours hahahaha.

I don't see myself going lower than 250mg of test a week ever, for the as long my body will let me (death).
 
OK I though about this a bit more and I think I'm going to try pyramided dosing of aromasin with a long drop off for 6-8 weeks. Dose at the peak will not be more than 10mg. I'm keeping the dose low in order to avoid more aromatase upregulation. I don't expect this to fix my problem in the long term though.
I'm working on the hypothesis that aromatase upregulation due to excessive tamoxifene use (+ adex, hcg and even mifeprestone...) is the cause of my problems. The only way I can think of to reduce aromatase activity is to actually use estrogen or progesterone chronically for a while.
 
You have no idea what you are talking about. Tamoxifen is a synthetic estrogen. It binds to the estrogen receptor and 'signals' to the hypothalamus that there is excessive estrogen in the bloodstream (so LH and FSH is kickstarted so test can balance out the estrogen).

No need to pyramid aromasin. It is a suicidal inhibitor meaning it literally kills off aromatase.

And lastly, my advice is you should never mess with AAS again. You obviously do not know enough to keep yourself safe.
 
Matsuo Munefusa. said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. Tamoxifen is a synthetic estrogen. It binds to the estrogen receptor and 'signals' to the hypothalamus that there is excessive estrogen in the bloodstream (so LH and FSH is kickstarted so test can balance out the estrogen).

No need to pyramid aromasin. It is a suicidal inhibitor meaning it literally kills off aromatase.

And lastly, my advice is you should never mess with AAS again. You obviously do not know enough to keep yourself safe.
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Obviously lol...

Tamoxifen has mixed agonist / antagonist action depending on tissue type. Mainly for us, it is an antagonist in brain and breast tissue and an agonist in sites like the liver (for cholesterol). Low ER signaling in the hypothalamus (because of tamoxifen) will cause LH and FSH to be pumped out and will obviously upregulate enzymatic pathways leading down to testosterone and estrogens. Now since you are sill blocking the ER in the brain the body's other option to increase estrogen levels is to upregulate the enzyme aromatase. Do bloodwork during tamoxifen - you will see highly elevated estrogen levels because of this. This is also why a PCT should ideally consist of SERMs and AIs.
Unfortunately AIs can lead to estrogen rebound if not handled correctly and people chose to avoid them and hope that estrogen levels normalize after the SERM is stopped. This is also why I am tapering down aromasin - to try and avoid an estrogen rebound. In this case the fact that aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor vs a competitive inhibitor is actually a bad thing.

References: http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/HMBCI.2010.042
"Together, these results demonstrate that estrogen deprivation results in the upregulation of the estrogen signaling pathway at the level of AIB1, ERα and aromatase, which might attenuate ER-mediated transcription "

Edit: Just reread this part of your post - "Tamoxifen is a synthetic estrogen. It binds to the estrogen receptor and 'signals' to the hypothalamus that there is excessive estrogen in the bloodstream (so LH and FSH is kickstarted so test can balance out the estrogen)."

This is exactly the opposite of what tamoxifen does. It competes with estrogen for ER binding in the hypothalamus reducing its action as a transcription factor making the brain think that there is "less" estrogen.
 
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Whats with all the attitude man? So far your contributions have been:
"no dude you dont stop the AI/SERM. If you want levels near what you had then you gotta use those AIs and SERMs"
"the tore will help with sexual health"
"Tamoxifen is a synthetic estrogen. It binds to the estrogen receptor and 'signals' to the hypothalamus that there is excessive estrogen in the bloodstream (so LH and FSH is kickstarted so test can balance out the estrogen)."

After these gems of misinformation you procede to say that I have no idea what I'm doing and that I should never touch AAS. If you have a reason to believe that my reasoning is not sound then present a rational argument instead of: "You have no idea what you are talking about. *Insert misinformation here*. You should never touch AAS again."

Anyway, for anyone else reading this thread that may want to help - my problem is elevated estrogen levels several months after my last cycle.
 
Matsuo Munefusa. said:
lol your problem is elevated estrogen levels. I told you to get on a SERM and an AI.

/thread

little asshole
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The fuck dude. You said SERM + AI long term. I said I don't think thats a good idea and explained instead what I think is could be the problem. Then you call me ignorant and now an asshole? Seriously WTF.
 
theartofwar said:
THANK YOU , I don't care , at 25 I will never go off juice unless I am forced by living situation / legal situation.

I'm going to crash after my cycle and I have a sports doc around here for TRT , the HGH is a fucking joke take home piss in a bottle give it back in 24 hours hahahaha.

I don't see myself going lower than 250mg of test a week ever, for the as long my body will let me (death).
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Art the other prob with me is I can't trust the dosage I buy bro. I would love to rock 200 mg per week and every 3 months do a cycle. I wish I could import some powder and homebrew some.. I am 25 also

Oh and for the guy with the estrogen problem..
U drinking soy milk stop if u are...
U need to roboot your self

Try ON choco whey protein
12 raw eggs
1 cup full fat coconut milk
ice
blend

drink for two months

get some sun to bro.
If this doesnt work in 2 months send me a message
 
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