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Research Study: Long Term Ecstasy Users Don’t Have Brain Damage

Thank god MDMA doesn't hurt me! I guess my anxiety and depression comes from running everyday. I'll take more pills and run less. Thank you thank you thank you!
 
^^ dont be a tit... if you had read antying you would have at least learnt that it is a PROVEN fact that E causes many problems related to the brain...

Moderation as pointed out many a time is the key, i think most drugs if not all can be used be any one for as long as they like, although maybe not as often as they like and still be fine... i think that if there are to many drugs going through your system your causing your brain not to work as well..

a car which uses nitrous goes faster, and more enjoyible, but blows quicker, then if you start addin engine mods, which are going to increase power, the car will blow alot quicker..

the same with drugs.. do too many and yes there will be a problem, like eating too many chocolate bars, you get fat, drinking to much coffee, you get addicted irratible etc. etc..

the fact is it isnt about proving that drugs dont cause damage but more that every thing does, the question is "how much damage is been done" not "lots or no damage" more people believe that drugs either harm you or they dont, the fact is they do, wether you like it or not...

the studies are here to find out, limitations, useage and problems occuring from them... even nuclear componentents can touch a human and have almost minimal impact on that persons life... and mostly if only a small amount gets expoused you wont even notice...

same goes with anything, everything, and nothing...

AS for ecstasy, im no scientist, but i know it causes damage, its pretty obvious by the harsh come downs you experience, you brain levels are incorrect.. your brain needs time to sort its self out, and by thinking that E harms this point of your brain and cocaine harms this part and therefore you can do twice as many drugs.. isnt true...

for my conclusion:

All drugs are harmful, infact everything you see and sence is harmful, try naming something that isnt...... Moderation has proven to be the key and everyone has different effects off the same substances, its all down to mental state... if your strong minded, healthy, and clever you could do any thing you wanted till the day you die with no problems.. as long as you no there are limitations...

all drugs do is cause more risks to the individual.. and its the users responsibilty to be more careful and look out...

Peace
 
find some one who did it when they first started and see if there depressed... not very scientific, but a good education aboutdrug use later on in life..
 
Well i do know somone who has ill effects from it me i used to take it alot and in the end i now suffer from panic attacks so who ever is doing thease tests should really do a world wide test of people and not base it off a cupple of brain scans

and 4 the people who dont know what panic attacks r it is a depleation of seritonion and damage to the replenishing factor in the brain there 4 u will need to go on anti depressents to fix the problem and to b nomal it isnt a pleasent thing to have take it from me so people who like to abuse drugs and think nothing will happen please think again


there my 2 cents worh

:p
 
cronicEtard said:
I..... roll (were im from we call it "dose or kick") about 4-5 times every week. And i drop about 8 pills each time.
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First of all, if this isn't abuse, then nothing is. For a newbie, 100mg is more than enough. In a more experienced user (say a once-a-month-for-a-year type person) it might take 200, possibly up to 300. If I had to use more than that, though, I'd be questioning exactly what the hell I was doing to myself. Of course, that's just me, and my goal is to use only infrequently, when it won't interfere with my studies... and I'm a fairly light person (6ft tall, but weiging only around 60kg) so I wouldn't need as much anyway. By the way, I dont intend to sound judgemental, sorry if I do, but I'm just a little shocked - this seems a bit excessive.

Secondly, most people who take E also take other drugs - I've only done it once and, aside from alcohol one night on weed I've never taken drugs (I've never even smoked tobacco). However, the friends I have who do drugs do all the others as well - amphetamines, benzo's, LSD, etc. Often in combination - speed before heading out keeps you going for longer before you take the pill. We KNOW that speed causes serious damage, and I'm certain the others do some damage too (including E). But if you take a range of drugs, how can you possibly single out one of them to blame all your problems on?

Next, consider again the placebo effect. We're told all this stuff that E causes this sort of damage, or it destroys these neurons, or whatever. This damage leads to feelings of depression and causes memory loss and so forth... well, we then take E and all of a sudden we begin to notice that we're starting to lose our memories, feeling depressed, stammerring more than normal, rambling on unable to keep track of where the sentence we are trying to tell is going. I noticed these things the day or so after my roll, and wondered if this would be long term if I ever took enough E. But then I got to thinking, and realised that I'm like that normally, I was just paying more attention to it because I EXPECTED that sort of thing to happen to me. I'm not saying those effects were purely placebo, but I think for the most part they were. And the more we experience that, the more likely we are to develop larger psychosomatic effects latter on. I'm all good, of course, but it was kinda fun to notice and pay attention to just how weird I am normally, instead of thinking I'm acting like a normal person :D

Also, to back this up, the power of suggestion and the placebo effect can be amazing. A study demonstrated just how powerful. A group of people were taken and divided in two. One half was explicitly told "you are going to be given alcohol"; the other half told "you are NOT going to be given alcohol". Unbeknownst to the participants (here's where the double-blind bit comes into play), each group had further been halved, so that one half of each group actually got alcohol (enough to get them reasonably drunk) and the other half didnt, irrespective of what they had been told (they used something strong enough to disguise the taste of the alcohol so that they wouldnt know if it was there or not). So, what happened? Well, the people who were told they had alcohol acted drunk - including the poeple who didnt get any alcohol. The people who had been told they were getting no alcohol acted sober - including those who were given alcohol. They acted like they had been told to. Of course, in ability tests they tested impaired or not as expected for whether they were given alcohol or not. But the way they acted was as they were told, not as they were dosed.

Another thing to consider... E is an interesting drug, in that it seems to attract people with a certain type of personality, more so than other drugs, I would think. Of course I can't back that up, but it does seem that the people who tend to make the choice to use E - USE, not ABUSE - are reasonably intelligent, and also slightly insane to start with (hey, I know if I ever went to a psychiatrist he'd give me drugs! Same for most of the people I know). If this generalisation is true (and it's only based on my fairly small field of experience, so it could be wildly wrong), then it seems likely that people who use E are going to exacerbate the problems they had when they started... thus studies would be automatically biased because of the difference in demographics between users and non-users.

LOL - here's an idea... I'll submit myself to my Uni's physiology department - since I've only used once, my brain should be more or less unchanged. Do all the tests, scans, etc. Could be kinda fun, and useful work experience, too, for later on (my major is pharmacology ;)). Then, in a few years, after more experience, I'll come back and do it all again to see the effects. And, of course, since the experiement would need to be controlled, we wouldn't want me getting something that isn't MDMA, so we'd have to make sure I was taking only pharmaceutical grade MDMA, or at least some MDMA that we got the Chem department to make for us, so we knew what it was... sounds like a good deal to me ;) (although I'm not sure the ethics committee would approve...).
 
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Nobody will ever be able to tell me that ecstasy doesnt cause some type of brain damage and it is in no way "safe". I have seen people get prety messed up from doing ecstasy all of the time, my self included. I think that most problems caused by E (speach problems, memory etc.) go some what back to normal after a cupple months of not useing, but i dont think your ever totaly the same. This is just what I think, could be totaly wrong... -Adam
 
E is a drug and all drugs have their negative effects. Even if you don't do drugs, drinking too much water has it's negative effects.... so all in all... everything is bad for you!!!! :\
 
This whole subject can't really be tested or debated about IMO because there are way too many factors to take in. Personally on the level of x giving you depression, I can't say with 100% confidence that it's really the x. I know for a fact I had clinical depression before I ever rolled. But I think the people who have problems with depression or other mental disorders are more likely to be drawn to using x because of what it gives to you. Yeah okay so it doesn't really help but i've been using for a year now and haven't noticed any significant change in my depression, actually in some ways it's gotten better. I think x in general however can bring out the fact that you do have depression or another problem because it gives you a greater spectrum of realization and inhibition. To tell you the truth they need to do a study on how many x users were diagnosed with mental health issues prior to their x expirences.

On the topic of memory, again, right after I roll I always seem to expirence poor concentration, lack of short term memory but after a week or two it seems to have all but disappeared and I feel normal again. I feel like I lose more short term memory after smoking bud frequently then rolling.

Also many of you have stated that you or people you know have had long term effects from using, but I know plenty of people in their late to mid-twenties who have been rolling for 5 or 6 years and they are perfectly well-adjusted people. Honestly I wouldn't have even known if no one told me in the first place and all of these people I happen to know very well.

I think drugs personally are a necessity of life in this day and age if you aren't niave. (IMO, not to offend anyone). I'm not saying x has no effects or doesn't cause brain damage but I think we under estimate the resilance of our bodies. And although this might contridict the previous statement in a few ways, at the rate cancer has been affecting all populations, a little brain damage isn't going to hurt anyone.

My point is, I knew the risks and took them anyway and I don't regret that I took them. In the long I think this has benefitted me more than it has hurt me. Furthermore, the US is ignorant in the first place for trying to do the mind control moral bit of its citizens. The war on drugs is just making things worse, give it up. From my standpoint I'd rather live a full life with many many expirences then sit around wondering what if? Hey, snorting lines of coke didn't seem to stop our President why should it stop the rest of us? I could probably go on for a while but I think I'll end it here.
 
Can one of the moderators change the title of this thread please? I really feel that it sends the wrong message. After all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You can't definitively prove the absence of brain damage with a noninvasive method such as a PET scan.

As for the question of ecstasy causing mental illness, there's actually another German study showing that people who were mentally ill or psychologically unstable before they started using drugs used ecstasy and other drugs at a higher rate than psychologically stable people. Thus, rather than ecstasy use causing mental illness, it may actually be the case that mental illness is a risk factor for ecstasy use. However, I think it is undeniable that ecstasy use can exacerbate exisiting psychological problems.
 
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pardon if this point has already been brought up,

...i think one thing to consider in the long term ill-effects debate is the quality of the experiences had....we all know that e use is hard on the body. tho the amount of damge vs dosage ratio is still debatable. but i am willing to bet that the majority of reported "brain damage" is not organic...but learned behavior. how many of the test subjects exhibiting "ill-effects" had bad rolls? how many times after taking mdma did they spend half the night lost in thier own heads?? mdma is a powerfull emotional stimulate, how much of the reported "emotional disturbances" are caused by "bad rolls"?

ya catch my drift?
 
Wow , after reading most of the post here I'm surpise that all you drug users bring up good points. I'm just confused on how much is too much. What do you people consider as moderation?

What about the other factors that can lead to neurotoxicity, like heat and dehydration? They should be factored in too.
 
I know 20 people who were doing X almost every week during 90s. They are all normal people and they don't have brain damage. So I don't need to read studies to know that long term X users don't have brain damage.
 
Nice to know, but early 90s.... i'm sure E pills are much different now. Proably cut with alot other chemicals.... but i could be wrong. Never was into E in the 90s... proably cuz i was still watching kiddie shows and learning to tie my shoe laces....
 
Ecstasy affects memory, new international study shows



People who take the recreational drug ecstasy risk impairing their memory, according to an international study which surveyed users in places including the UK, other European countries, the USA and Australia.

The study, which also surveyed non-drug users, found that those who regularly took ecstasy suffered from mainly long-term memory difficulties, and that they were 23 per cent more likely to report problems with remembering things than non-users.

The British research team, led by the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, also questioned volunteers about their use of other recreational drugs. It found those who regularly used cannabis reported up to 20 per cent more memory problems than non-users. Their short-term memory was mainly affected.

Because evidence has shown ecstasy users are likely to use other drugs, including cannabis, the researchers say they are vulnerable to a myriad of memory afflictions which may represent a ‘time bomb’ of cognitive problems for later life.

Results of the study are published in the current edition of the Journal of Psychopharmacology.

Use of ecstasy, otherwise known as 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, or MDMA, is on the increase, with up to two million tablets being consumed every weekend in the UK.

Until now, little has been known about the impact of ecstasy and other drug use on everyday and long-term memory.

Researchers from the Universities of Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumbria, Westminster, Teesside and East London surveyed drug users via a web-based questionnaire.

Volunteers were posed questions about their everyday and long-term memory and asked to rank the probability of scenarios such as finding a television story difficult to follow and forgetting to pass a message onto somebody.

The research team based their findings on responses from 763 participants but they also looked closely at a sub-group of 81 ‘typical’ ecstasy users who had taken the drug at least ten times.

As well as analysing volunteers’ responses to the memory tests, the team recorded the number of mistakes made when filling in the questionnaire.

They found the group of ‘typical users’ reported their long-term memory to be 14 per cent worse than the 480 people who had never taken ecstasy and 23 per cent worse than the 242 non-drug users.

In addition, this group made 21 per cent more errors on the questionnaire form than non-ecstasy users and 29 per cent more mistakes than people who did not take drugs at all.

Lead researcher Dr Jacqui Rodgers, of Newcastle University, said: “We all know of cases where people have suffered acutely from the use of ecstasy, such as the teenager Leah Betts, but relatively little is known about the more subtle effects on the increasing number of regular users worldwide.

“Users may think that ecstasy is fun and that it feels fairly harmless at the time. However, our results show slight but measurable impairments to memory as a result of use, which is worrying.

“It’s equally concerning that we don’t really know what the long-term effects of ecstasy use will be, as it is still a poorly understood drug. The results indicate that users are potentially creating a time bomb of potential cognitive difficulties in later life.

“The findings also suggest that ecstasy users who take cannabis are suffering from a ‘double whammy’ where both their long-term and short-term memory is being impaired.”

Dr Rodgers, of the School of Neurology, Neurobiology & Psychiatry, added that the results could inform drug therapy techniques: “The findings may help drug services in the UK and elsewhere to explain the potential consequences of use so that people can make an informed decision as to whether to take ecstasy or not.”

The study also found no significant differences between results from male and female participants
 
Ecstasy affects memory, new international study shows



People who take the recreational drug ecstasy risk impairing their memory, according to an international study which surveyed users in places including the UK, other European countries, the USA and Australia.

The study, which also surveyed non-drug users, found that those who regularly took ecstasy suffered from mainly long-term memory difficulties, and that they were 23 per cent more likely to report problems with remembering things than non-users.

The British research team, led by the University of Newcastle upon Tyne, also questioned volunteers about their use of other recreational drugs. It found those who regularly used cannabis reported up to 20 per cent more memory problems than non-users. Their short-term memory was mainly affected.

Because evidence has shown ecstasy users are likely to use other drugs, including cannabis, the researchers say they are vulnerable to a myriad of memory afflictions which may represent a ‘time bomb’ of cognitive problems for later life.

Results of the study are published in the current edition of the Journal of Psychopharmacology.

Use of ecstasy, otherwise known as 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, or MDMA, is on the increase, with up to two million tablets being consumed every weekend in the UK.

Until now, little has been known about the impact of ecstasy and other drug use on everyday and long-term memory.

Researchers from the Universities of Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumbria, Westminster, Teesside and East London surveyed drug users via a web-based questionnaire.

Volunteers were posed questions about their everyday and long-term memory and asked to rank the probability of scenarios such as finding a television story difficult to follow and forgetting to pass a message onto somebody.

The research team based their findings on responses from 763 participants but they also looked closely at a sub-group of 81 ‘typical’ ecstasy users who had taken the drug at least ten times.

As well as analysing volunteers’ responses to the memory tests, the team recorded the number of mistakes made when filling in the questionnaire.

They found the group of ‘typical users’ reported their long-term memory to be 14 per cent worse than the 480 people who had never taken ecstasy and 23 per cent worse than the 242 non-drug users.

In addition, this group made 21 per cent more errors on the questionnaire form than non-ecstasy users and 29 per cent more mistakes than people who did not take drugs at all.

Lead researcher Dr Jacqui Rodgers, of Newcastle University, said: “We all know of cases where people have suffered acutely from the use of ecstasy, such as the teenager Leah Betts, but relatively little is known about the more subtle effects on the increasing number of regular users worldwide.

“Users may think that ecstasy is fun and that it feels fairly harmless at the time. However, our results show slight but measurable impairments to memory as a result of use, which is worrying.

“It’s equally concerning that we don’t really know what the long-term effects of ecstasy use will be, as it is still a poorly understood drug. The results indicate that users are potentially creating a time bomb of potential cognitive difficulties in later life.

“The findings also suggest that ecstasy users who take cannabis are suffering from a ‘double whammy’ where both their long-term and short-term memory is being impaired.”

Dr Rodgers, of the School of Neurology, Neurobiology & Psychiatry, added that the results could inform drug therapy techniques: “The findings may help drug services in the UK and elsewhere to explain the potential consequences of use so that people can make an informed decision as to whether to take ecstasy or not.”

The study also found no significant differences between results from male and female participants
 
listen guy's i really think they don't know what the hell they r talkin about. i think they r just tryin 2 scare us into not enjoyin ourselves.
 
"Variety is the Spice of life" and as mentioned "Moderation"


from a scare monger post at dr.bob:

Frederick DL, Annals of the NY Academy of Science, May 30 1998, Vol 844, p 183-90. Showed 50% decrease in serotonin in frontal cortex and hippocampus (memory area) of rhesus monkeys 6 months after being given MDMA for only 4 days at doses comparable to human use.

Scheffel U; Synapse, June 1998, Vol 29:2, p183-92. In baboons, PET scans 13 months after being given MDMA for only 4 days, showed decreased serotonin activity and fewer serotonin transporters. This was confirmed on autopsy of the animal. This indicates that PET scans may be useful in diagnosing MDMA damage in humans.

Parrott AC; Journal of Psychopharmacology, 1998, Vol 12:1m p 79-83. Tested cognitive performance in regular users (have used 10 times or more), novice users (1-9 uses) and a control group (have never used). Tests done were done on a drug free day. Reaction time was similar in all groups, but immediate and delayed recall was decreased in both MDMA groups.

Simantov R; FASER Journal, Feb 1997, Vol 11:2, p 141-6. Showed MDMA killed human serotonin cells, changed the cell cycle, arrested cell development and caused DNA fragmentation. MDMA did not affect non-serotonin cells.

Curran HV; Addiction; July 1997, Vol 92:7, p 821-31. Compared MDMA with Alcohol. Participants consumed either MDMA or alcohol on Day 1 then remained abstinent. Mood and cognitive tests were given on Day 1, 2 and 5. On day 1 MDMA and alcohol users had elevated mood. On day 5, MDMA users had significantly lower mood with some users scoring in the clinically depressed range. Alcohol users felt worst on day 2 with gradually improved mood by day 5. MDMA users also scored worse on cognitive and memory tests than alcohol users throughout the study. The conclusions were that weekend use of MDMA may result in midweek depressions.


P.S. I didnt read these, so cant comment on validity.
 
Raas said:
I've heard about this study before, and a lot of people deciding "ecsatsy is completely safe" because of it.

Problems with study:

1) It assumes all heavy ecstasy users have no long term damage after there serotonin has fully replenished. Anyone who has been reading the dark side, and health Q&A forums on this site or knows a lot of ex-pillheads will know that people do suffer effects long after...such as myself.

2) It does not pick up on other possible brain damage, such as a damaged short term memory, or speach problems.

3) It does not show how a heavy ecstasy user's serotonin system would react. My personal theory is that heavy ecstasy use will see a person more prone to psychological problems in the future... an example of such, is heavy users report their come-downs get even worse over time.

4) As it measures people with an average pill intake of 827 and 793 pills, chances are those people have taken that many because they are the lucky ones who don't get a problem from it. People who react badly to the drug would stop at about 100 for instance.

Please correct me if anyone feels those evaluations are unjust.
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But they weren't saying E is problem-free, only talking about neurological damage. Lot's of people have problems for a long time after their E use, but who's to say they wouldn't have anyway (lots more people have big problem than we admit), or that the E simply brought about something that was already there and would have emered later anyway.

Maybe the users bought pills in bulk of supplies they knew were good (and people who use E alot tend to meet bigger supplies eventually), so it might be the pills they took were, in total, alot less filled with crap that will screw you up.

I do think E can be really bad and cause alot of problems. But not because it just "damages the brain".
 
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