• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Religions of the future

Science can't give us:

the meaning of life

I think 42 is pretty close to the 'answer'.

what was going on at t+0 sec of the big bang or before

I think this is premature as it was science that gave us the question, and only in the last few decades at that - it's not like we have yet exhausted all avenues of research here.

what happens post-mortem

It can give a fairly thorough accounting of the biodegration of the human body. There is not any evidence for anything else so far as we can tell despite plentiful whishful thinking to the contrary.

what the ethical good and evil might be

That's more philosophy than science but i for one have no problems deriving an ethical outlook on life in terms of good and evil from first principles without requiring religion or spirituality.

what ontology we should be working with among several congruent with our physical theories.

don't know much about that one.
 
Last edited:
Religion is nothing but garbage, a tool for brainwashing. It makes for a really nice story though! Nuff said.
 
Religion is nothing but garbage, a tool for brainwashing. It makes for a really nice story though!

I would tend to agree, but;

Nuff said.

Not really. The topic of discussion is how you think religion will evolve in the future. If you think religion is garbage that is fine with me but how do you think this will affect things in the future and why?
 
Well, I would hope that people would come to the realization that there is no "God," and stop imposing their beliefs upon others. I remember once trying to believe in God but I felt as if I were trying to fool myself, so I long abandoned that belief. I'm not saying it's impossible for there to be a God, I'm just saying if he did exist he's a shitty God, 'cause if I were God there would be no murder, rape, poverty or theft, even if that meant humans have no "Free will," because apparently that's too much for us to handle.
 
In the near future, I think there will be a revival of the ages-old struggle between gnostic/occult/eastern thought and judeic/islamic/christian thought. As people become more aware, they will naturally shed their belief of the "god as one man", replacing it with "god is the universe and so am i".

The only thing standing in the way is western apathy. Greed isn't a problem once you realize your cosmic identity, but, unfortunately, too many people have been conditioned to interpret their mystical experiences as meetings with god (as other), instead of conversations with their (true) self.
 
the world is becoming more and more globalized and communication is becoming easier
revolutions are happening faster than they ever have before
ideas can spread like wildfires throughout the planet

i think more and more branches of the core religions will form
then as views are switching from broad so specified, its core values wear off
and religion will die out.

and i agree with religion meaning god/goddess type.
therefore people will have to fill their emptiness with something else
and it will probably be technology where people can access anything at any time they want and since advancement is occuring faster and faster, they will always be consumed and occupied.

i feel like that sounds cliche, but you can see it with people who have iphones. at any break where they have time to themselves, instead of engaging in cogative stimulation, theyll play words with friends on their iphones.

its kind of like convienence is becoming more and more available so people stop thinking and just entertain themselves.
 
In the near future, I think there will be a revival of the ages-old struggle between gnostic/occult/eastern thought and judeic/islamic/christian thought. As people become more aware, they will naturally shed their belief of the "god as one man", replacing it with "god is the universe and so am i".

The only thing standing in the way is western apathy. Greed isn't a problem once you realize your cosmic identity, but, unfortunately, too many people have been conditioned to interpret their mystical experiences as meetings with god (as other), instead of conversations with their (true) self.

Amen to all this except your last sentence; isn't one of the hidden truths that mysticism reveals that 'God' and 'true self' aren't separate?
 
Me and my friends believe in Presto Manifesto, the mysterious godly powers of the ghost of Jerry Garcia.
 
I think this is premature as it was science that gave us the question, and only in the last few decades at that - it's not like we have yet exhausted all avenues of research here.

The notion of time, and what 'exists' outside of time, was posited long before any organized, scientific theory generated it. Whether you ask the question consistent with the Standard Model (what was occurring at t=0), or philosophically, "What exists outside of time," you are still asking the same general (abstracted) question. Even if we assume an oscillating Universe, expanding and contracting infinitely, each time potentially producing different physics, there is still an instant when time does not exist (t=0) and this begs the question, "What is occuring when t=0?". What or how can something occur? Does something necessarily have to occur when t=0, and how does something 'exist' when t=0. When Constantine answered the question regarding God and Time (and why God does not necessarily require a cause of Himself), he conjectured that God is eternal and exists outside of space and time. Obviously, this does not have any scientific value, however, science was not the first paradigm to generate an inquiry into the questions related to time and existence.

It is really only in the last few decades that complex and mathematically elegant theories have generated answers for what preceded the Universe (such as other Universes), and what was occuring (and whether or not that question has value), however, some of the 'answers' to these questions are seemingly impossible to verify (and possibly to falsify depending on the theory) and will only provide us with mere correlates (although probably one day very strong correlates).

This presents a problem to those who do not choose to accept the pressuppositions and assumptions required to accept a scientific solution to these questions. There are also many people who cannot accept the possibility that there does not necessarily need to be a reason or solution to some of these questions (such as those who accept that our consciousness is responsible for wondering why we are here, or why the Universe exists and that the question does not exist outside of our minds) - these people will likely seek religion for answers.

It can give a fairly thorough accounting of the biodegration of the human body. There is not any evidence for anything else so far as we can tell despite plentiful whishful thinking to the contrary.

I cannot imagine a way to empirically verify what occurs post-mortem, other than biologically and chemically. I suppose if one could construct an empirically verified model of phenomenal consciousness, then we could induce what occurs post-morterm. The problem with that assumption, is that it implicitly contains an additional assumption that we could ever observe the subjective experiences of another consciousness.

This is another problem that science attempts to answer (and certainly will require much more time to determine whether it is possible to answer), and that some people choose not to accept and therefore likely seek religion.

That's more philosophy than science but i for one have no problems deriving an ethical outlook on life in terms of good and evil from first principles without requiring religion or spirituality.

The notion that the question itself is more philosophy than science, is precisely the reason he presented it. It is a question that science cannot answer, and yet, it is a question that has been asked since the moment man's consciousness became aware of it. Another reason why people likely seek religion.



don't know much about that one.

My understanding of ontology is limited as well, however, from the limited reading I have done, this is my understanding:

Ontology is the philosophical inquiry into the substance of reality. Two major ontologies are known as 'substance ontology' and 'process ontology'. Substance ontology is the ontological paradigm that sciences presupposes. The presupposition is that the whole of reality can be deconstructed into its constituent parts (people into matter, matter into atoms, atoms into particles, etc., or that reality is an extension or creation of God). Western religions all presuppose a substance ontology. A process ontology is one in which reality oscilliates between states of being and non being (this is a simple description). It is more of an eastern perspective (Taoism, Buddhism), and for me at least (because I have always just pressupposed a substance ontology although I didn't know that of course), it is difficult to really apprehend.

Some very basic examples that I can think of are:

A mountain cannot exist without a valley, and a valley cannot exist without a mountain.

A room cannot exist without space between its four sides, and four sides do not exist without space between them.

I do think some languages (e.g. romantic and germanic languages), already imply a substance ontology and makes it difficult to transform our thought process into one capable of really understanding what it even means for reality to exist without any kind of "building blocks" or constituent parts (especially with the advancements in science).
 
Yeah cP, I can see future religious groups going for more of a process, rather than substance, ontology for their philosophical basis.

Creep and MrM, please keep this thread on the future of religion, not the merits of it.
 
a process ontology is not incommensurable with science. the 'building blocks' you speak of (i'll call them foundations) are temporary, intermediate stages or 'holdups'; in which the process is so slow at that point that it is apparently solid, in which its 'other' (opposite) is reduced to almost nothing, though still at work in a very small margin. this 'appearance' is called 'the ontic' (how the underlying process is manifested at a certain point). in science you can see this in the method of induction, which means any theory still may (however unlikely) be contradicted. as such, a certain scientific dynamism is possible. connected with this is the observed non-linearity of scientific development (Kuhn's paradigms). this would be the stronghold when assuming a process ontology underneath science.

(sorry for off-topic)
 
Last edited:
I do think some languages (e.g. romantic and germanic languages), already imply a substance ontology and makes it difficult to transform our thought process into one capable of really understanding what it even means for reality to exist without any kind of "building blocks" or constituent parts (especially with the advancements in science).
All languages honor "substance" as a valid reality in that they are all based on the pronoun structure.

I don't think it is necessarily a problem for thinking about processes since process ontology's still use substance. The difference is these constructs take the interconnectivity between substances as valid ontological entities as well.
 
^hmm strictly speaing substance itself doesn't |quite| reach ontological status. it is still used for description in and about the realm of the ontic. it serves as stepping stones, or stairs, towards grasping the ontology. the heart of a process ontology is beyond language (or even 'thought', in the way we usually think of it). all the words are only approximations, preparing one for the 'leap'. the concepts only gain their value in their coherence/relation with all the others in their formation of said stepping stones or stairway.
so it is only through the relation ontic-ontologic that substance has the status of 'truth', within a process of 'truthing' yet this only appears/exist through these 'solidified truths'. so well; its actually both yes and no. as usual. or perhaps: 'no... leaning to yes.' the different philosophers lay different nuances and stresses here, but generally, the process seems to have 'the last say'; though this seems to me a compensatory movement to counter the historic weight that substance ontology carries as of now. so i essentially agree. and yet i don't. argh! :!
 
Last edited:
A cataclysmic war unlike anything we can imagine between tranhumanist, basically techno-Hermetic alchemists seeking immortality through technology and their enslaved subhumans who will increasingly seek strength in traditional spirituality. Winner takes all, either we are emergent gods, or the current gods will have noticed what's going on and confirm that the only truth is what you believe.
 
^ Sounds like good novel material, dude!

Some further thoughts:

I think a lot of future religious movements are going to revert back to the way a lot of primitive tribal religions were: heavy on the doing, light on the verbalizing and philosophizing. For example, you might find religious communities that have only vague and imprecise notions of the divine, and very simple propositions concerning mankind's role in the world, but worship services marked by elaborate and passionate dancing, entrancing music, and yantras (visual images meant to inspire spiritual awe) around the worship space. Such practices could be justified, as in times of old, as simply Natural Law or The Way, rather than as rationally prescribed due to revealed articles of faith.
 
^ Sounds like good novel material, dude!

Some further thoughts:

I think a lot of future religious movements are going to revert back to the way a lot of primitive tribal religions were: heavy on the doing, light on the verbalizing and philosophizing. For example, you might find religious communities that have only vague and imprecise notions of the divine, and very simple propositions concerning mankind's role in the world, but worship services marked by elaborate and passionate dancing, entrancing music, and yantras (visual images meant to inspire spiritual awe) around the worship space. Such practices could be justified, as in times of old, as simply Natural Law or The Way, rather than as rationally prescribed due to revealed articles of faith.

Interesting, a reversion back to The One True Religion, as the underground stream rectifies man's hubris, a cataphatical 'notion' of the supernal is 'invoked' through ceremony, a return to the Eleusian Fields.

However I see all this, Hermetic lore, Mercurian and neo-Gnostic matching closely with the trans- and post-humanists goals. Dissolution of Gender, genetic manipulation, a singularity and then - well the ultimate archetype of man's quest for immortality where minds will interact as a hive-mind, Web 9.1 with man becomes magus, or even God himself. In his infinite boredome immortal man will mostly have virtual sex, some will create new realities which they both 'inhabit' and control, the dream from the Asclepius finally realised. You might find this article on transhumanism's ancient roots of interest http://www.re-public.gr/en/?p=989

The esoteric tradition is alive and well and lurking in the recesses of the internet. Will you be H+ or H-?

On balance I think the latter.
 
^ Oh I think the esoteric tradition is more than lurking. I'd say the secret's out of the box, just when it's most helpful.

I believe theologian Karen Armstrong when she says that Christianity was not originally a literalist revealed faith, but a set of loosely connected mystery schools, that took Jesus and his deeds mostly symbolically, kind of the way Freemasons Take Hiram the stonemason of Tyre, who's quite likely legendary.
 
^ Oh I think the esoteric tradition is more than lurking. I'd say the secret's out of the box, just when it's most helpful.

I believe theologian Karen Armstrong when she says that Christianity was not originally a literalist revealed faith, but a set of loosely connected mystery schools, that took Jesus and his deeds mostly symbolically, kind of the way Freemasons Take Hiram the stonemason of Tyre, who's quite likely legendary.


And in my opinion she couldn't be more correct. It is interesting how in seminars/conferences Christianity of late antiquity is often reffered to as 'Hellenised Judsidm', but many theologians, particularly with sectarians, balk at the idea as tenuous at best. I was looking at a researcf proposal on Christian Platonists of Alexandria, with the focus on why the Greek word Logos was chosen to designate Christ in the NT, and how Middle Platonism shaped the early Carholica. I didn't gnniteet the most encouraging support from my supervisor (Emeritus world expert in Gnosticism) so changed my plans. I was once even 'face=palmed' by a professor for drawing the obvious similarities between Socrates and Jesus. Early followers of 'The Way' (1st Century C.E.) syncretised with great ease their mystery cults with Pauline, or Johanite apostolic teachings, enjoying the extra mystery that the ancient Jewish transcendent Monad that accorded with the Platonic immaterial 'One'.

Out of interest what do you mean by the 'esoteric position...being out of the box'? Just curious to see how it might accord with my own.

GNOTHI SEAUTON
 
I mean that for most of the recorded history of the West (and the Middle East, I think) esoteric and mystery schools were not public. You had to know the right people, or be born into the right family. I chalk this up not only to political expediency, but also to the widely-held notion that esoteric teachings get much of their impact from the way they're ritually REVEALED to the initiate, who was raised to believe starkly different interpretations of similar stories and symbols.

In the modern day West, exoteric religion is not a tool of political power in nearly the same way it was for much of history, starting in the Enlightenment but really changing with the Industrial Revolution. Nor are esoteric groups bastions of their original sort of consolidated, hidden political power (though I'm sure many would beg to differ). In a way, the return to natural law, and the elevation of mankind's capacity for reason, have already been enacted in the form of the secular republics that now make up the West. These were two of the greatest jewels of classical philosophy protected by mystery schools from destruction by Christendom. And now they need not be secret any longer.

In India and China, by contrast, esoteric teachings have long been far more publicly available, and really make up the bulk of Eastern religions' public faces that Westerners see and seek. This is because Indian and Chinese societies have always had a very different place for metaphysical inquiry than the West. It's not really possible to say either of them (until British colonial hegemony or Communism, respectively) had any idea of a discrete entity called 'religion', that could be separated from natural law and obedience of it in everyday life. Spirituality followed from obeying natural law in one's everyday life, it didn't precede or underlie it.

You see an explosive interest, nowadays, in worldviews that rely on symbology and ritual to reorient the individual's inner world, and help him to find and make peace with his place in the natural order. Gnostic, Hermetic, and Platonic influenced groups are opening their doors like never before to fill that demand, as are groups that take most of their influence from Indian, Chinese, and various animist and indigenous systems of belief.

This is crude and ballsy, but I'll make this generalization anyway: Exoteric religious traditions (think Churches and Mosques) aim to change the outer world to better fit people. Esoteric religious traditions aim to change people to better fit the outer world.
 
Top