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Relapse Relasped 4 weeks ago I have Induction question (subutex or suboxone)

mike13118

mike13118

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Sep 4, 2018
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I posted before about Rapid detox that I was thinking about. I want to start over with my history. This is my 4th relapse and now am doing 10 bags heroin a day for last 4 weeks. was on Suboxone for 6 months before that. Have been doing heroin for 3 years before that oxys for about 3 years. I have home inducted at least 3 times and I get sick for 2 days even with suboxone and Subutex. I want to try something different, Looking at rapid detox and the Bermise method where u do dope and suboxone I would think Subutex would be better but they use suboxone from what I read. Ive only been doing dope 4 weeks now do you think I can avoid some of withdrawls with just doing like 16 Subutex after waiting 12 hours from last use. Or has anyone tried the bermise method. I think I have chucked the rapid detox idea. HELP want to get off heroin and subs.
 
They is no easy way to get off heroin Mike. Are you injecting? When you say "I get sick for 2 days even with suboxone and Subutex" what exactly do you mean? Is the dose of Sub too low for your heroin use? How much Sub have you been using each day?
 
Hey thank you for sticking around mike13118. I will let others address the chemical transition as the underlying stuff is of more interest to me. What does your support system look like? What are you doing outside of cessation of substances to deal with the causes and conditions that may be leading back to resumption of use. Are you utilizing therapy? Are you seeking recovery supports through the many avenues that exist (12 step, SMART, Refuge, Celebrate, et al.)? Have you engaged in structured treatment before? Is outpatient treatment available to you? Have you ever truly stabilized on a maintenance medication (i.e. regulated dose taken as indicated in concert with some form of psycho-social therapeutic mode)?
 
I have been injecting do u think if I snort last 2 days before jumping off it would be easier. I was taking about 6mg sub a day I was stable on subs 2 years ago at 4mg a day for 2 years before relapsing.So each time I induct at home it seems like I am in full blown withdrawls for 2 days even taking 16 mg suboxone. This time ive only been on H for 4 weeks and have Subutex want to jump in a few days.
 
No if you stop using Heroin (10 bags a day) wait 24 hours then start Sub's for 2 days you will be fine for another 3 days then as soon as the Sub starts dropping out your body you will go straight into full blown withdrawal.
 
has anyone tried the Bernese method or something like that. Im thinking only being back on dope 4 weeks should not be bad induction. Ive also heard but I don't believe that Subutex can be takin sooner that suboxone when I induct. ???
 
Subutex will chuck all the heroin off your receptors just as fast as suboxone and throw you straight into withdrawal if you take it too soon i always wait at least 24 hours. So just because Subutex has no Naloxone in does not mean you can take it sooner.

It sound like you are trying to avoid even the slightest bit of withdrawal which is just not possible. 4 weeks is not too bad if it was your first ever Heroin use but how long has it been since you have been completely clean from both Heroin and Sub's?
 
I'm probably the gal you are looking for.

First off, being back on dope 4 weeks isn't going to matter induction-wise...sorry. Unless you were off less than 3 days..it's gonna suck. I've had equally as bad of re-inductions after 6 days off as I have with a month off. So, go ahead and get that out of your head. Going from shooting to snorting might have made it easier. I always recommend tapering.

Unfortunately, I don't know the potency of the 10 bags of heroin you've been doing...but, isn't 10 bags a gram? Sorry, where I live we buy in gram (or points of a gram) amounts. If so, that's about my average dope tolerance, give or take, or was anyways. When I first inducted, I also didn't get much relief. I was sick for almost an entire week...not precipitated wd either. Going from a full agonist to a partial agonist takes your body time to adjust, that's just that. The Bernese method DOES work, but you have to be VERY VERY diciplined about it. I have had times when I was, and reinducted just fine, but most of the time I kept the dope up along with the subs and then you just end up becoming dependent on both...which is EXPENSIVE. I thought I would be able to pull it off each time, but I always failed n the end...and that's why I'm on methadone now. And it works great for me. Also an option, btw, just don't let the stigma scare you.

If you are going to do bernese I recommend this: Start LOW on your subs...like 1-2mg at most. If you keep it low like this, you can take your sub between 6-12 hours after dope but MAKE SURE you have dope on hand or you will be unhappy you did this. Do dope like you normally would at night. Sleep. Wake up and take 1-2mg subs. Wait. Wait like an hour. If you don't feel anything, no precipitated wd or anything, take 1mg more. At this point, you should start to feel the precipitated wd kicking in...do some dope (snort it, though, keep your tolerance low). Do only enough dope till you feel better...you WON"T GET HIGH (the subs will block that). The key is to have the dope take away the sickness but to have subs in you. If you start feeling wd creep in again later in the day, take another little bit of dope...like I said, just use enough to be ok enough to function. The next day, take 2-4mg subs. Do some dope (but do less than the day before). The next day take 8mg..use less dope than the day before that. NExy day go up to 16mg. At this point, the subs should be fully in your system and blocking dope anyways, but if you don't feel ok...use a little more dope. After this, you should be inducted and shouldn't need anymore dope to feel ok. Basically, the idea is to slowly decrease your subs and then to slowly increase your dope...and, like a taper, the longer you take to do this..the easier the transition in the end. The problem I've found with this method is that it's hard to put down the dope...your body will convince you that you still aren't well enough to ditch it yet and you'll find yourself still using. If you think you can push past this voice, I'd recommend this method. I have shitty self control.

Let me know if you have any more questions regarding this...I used the bernese method like once a freaking month till i just got tired of that life..methadone has turned everything around for me :) Good luck
 
Hi Ladyglove what is the point in the method you explain, i am little confused in what it will achieve? Thanks ;)
 
It helps you adjust to the subs A LOT easier and without much pain.

If you have a heavy habit, like I did and like OP has, no matter how long you wait from your last dose of dope to take your sub, you will still be sick. Maybe not as sick as you'd be cold turkey, but still pretty damn sick (so sick I had to still stay home from work for days). Like I mentioned in my post, going from a full agonist to a partial agonist is traumatic on the brain and body if your tolerance is high enough.

Also, some people get precipitated withdrawal no matter how long they wait. I've known people who get it after 40+ hours still. This is another option to having to wait 3 days to take a sub.

Also works well for people who are switching from methadone so they don't have to wait 6+ days in misery to begin subs.
 
I always found the Physical side of coming off Heroin as hard but you give up 5 days and get in the right frame of mind and get through it. It can't last forever its what comes after 5 days which I can't bear the real pain of depression and also anxiety and insomnia.
 
Well, with this method..you don't have to give up five days. That's the point of it. Some people have jobs, children, and other various responsibilities that we can't take 5 days away from. "

It's all a matter of opinion. There's actually lots on this induction method in other forums and lots of people's opinions of it. Some people love it, some would just rather deal with a couple of days misery and get it over with. Just like everything else in recovery...everyone differs.
 
To be completely safe wait 36 hours after last dose then start with 1mg sublingually. If that goes ok add 1mg sublingually every hour until your out of withdrawal. If you get inpatient you can take a bigger dose after the first 2 sublingual doses fairly safely.

If you want to be risky you can start the above process as soon as you feel SIGNIFICANT withdrawal symptoms. That doesn't mean the first time you yawn funny!!!!

By using this system I've inducted myself countless times with no precipitated withdrawal problems
 
in my understanding its when my eyes and nose start running which is 24-36 hours after my last dose. but thats me and I only know that through experience.
 
It's pretty common knowledge that the longer you wait, the better Suboxone will work for you. But I don't know about you guys, I could never make it that long in withdrawal. He wanted ppls experience with Bernese..which is the method of reducing dope while increasing subs to make the adjustment easier. It totally works too..just requires discipline (that I lack but op might do better at)
 
I recently used the Bernese Method to induct my subs. Everything ladyhlove said...w/maybe a couple exceptions for me personally. Prior to trying this method, we tried inducting numerous times over the years, everytime being awful...trying every tip we'd read.
My background - I've been snorting 1-2 grams per day for about 8 years. I live on the east coast, so it's mostly fentanyl now, which testing has confirmed in myself & my husband over the last 1.5 yrs. Over the last 3 months, we weaned down due to financial restraints, to .5 g/day...we were also taking 4mg of sub during this time to supplement. Yes, we would feel the fentanyl, no we never got PW. When we started taking the sub, we started on a low dose of 1mg, before upping it 1mg/day to 4mg for awhile. For 1 week before stopping the dope, we'd up the sub by 1mg/day up to 8mg & then the last 3 days we cut our use down & took a lil more sub, maybe 1mg. The 1st 2 days without dope, we upped our sub dose to 12mg too.
Aside from very minor laziness the 2nd day, we had no physical w/d symptoms. His cravings were gone by day 2, mine by day 3. We even slept straight through the 2nd night. (The 1st night wasn't bad either, we were comfortable, just waking up every 30 min or so. Which, you could obviously take something to prevent this.)
After having so much trouble over the years trying to induct, this was the way to do it. Every other time, with subs, I'd be laid up in bed for almost a week, super uncomfortable & depressed... & this time on day 3 I was back to working on my house.
Just to answer some common questions from our experience - when we were using both sub & dope, did we still get high? Yes, but it was because it was fentanyl. We did do dope a couple times & felt about 75%...but we were straight until 24 hrs later. Did we time out the sub to avoid PW? Actually, no, we never paid any attention, but we also always did a bump right after doing the sub, so I wouldn't know if we did. It did take trying this method twice to get it right, as I believe the 1st time we weren't taking enough sub. The hardest part was making that final decision to cut off the dope. Because, as always, we'll justify one more day. But, once we did, it was nothin'. Lastly, my advice to make sure it works - make sure you're taking enough sub the 1st 3 days without dope. I always thought, "There's noway I'd need more than 4mg of sub." Once stable, that's enough for me...but the 1st 3 days, I needed more to get rid of all the symptoms & cravings.
Over the years I've read SO many posts that have helped me out SO much. I really hope this will help someone else having a hard time inducting.
 
I live on the east coast..idk if what I was taking was fent but def strong. I remember after my .5-1g habit took over..once I couldn't get h and only oxy30s (roxis). I bought 3 for myself (2 normally would do it, but I knew my tolerance was high so I thought ok 3) and 7 to sell to someone else bc I got them mad cheap and could make a profit selling. I ended up taking all 10 of those bitches before I even stopped withdrawing. So..maybe I was on fent too. Who knows.
 
Lady is exactly right about the Bernese thing. Me and her both did it around the same time. Several times unfortunately. I got it to work and got off all of it completely. No subs, nothing. I was happy, sleeping, eating, normal again!! Got drunk and celebrated my sobriety with... you guessed it. Going for it again soon. Just gotta get my benzos. I suck!! How do I have such short memory about how brutal quitting was. I legit almost died. (Not from the physical wds, just the level of crazy I went) I do recommend trying to get off the subs as quick as you can unless you KNOW you will relapse without them. Kicking subs after maintenance is worse than dope imo.
message me if you have any questions on induction or the way I did it. I feel like I could help you even though it didn’t stick last time for me. I think I wasn’t truly ready to deal with life sober when I got there. I feel I am now. Trying to quit when I didn’t (my best friend, my dad, died) was a disaster. I had to come to terms with lots of stuff.
I need to go visit your thread ladyh. I’m sorry. I’ve been mia. A real winner lately. Your an awesome person and a big motivation for me when I needed you and thank you. Stick around if you will. It’s probably gonna get hairy for me again soon. Lol!! Well not really laughing.��
 
Thanks Lady Love and all 1 question should I use Subutex or suboxone. and do subs in am then dope rest of day or try and add more subs every 12 hours
 
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