Regular Disassociative Users: Lend me your Stories :)

[thoughtsUnThought]

i just posted this in the 'are disassociative hard drugs?' thread, but i think this is something worth making a thread about.....

curious to catalog both 'in the middle of the usage' as well as retrospective analysis regarding regular disassociative use. does the habit-forming quality end up mis-guiding the true function of, and appropriate timing, of the psychonautical value..?? also, does it end up being more of an 'effect drug' for you guys..? by this i mean does mxe and ket maintain a sort of intrigue to the psychonaut even when being abused regularly..? or does one end up coming back simply for the sensations almost like with opiates...? and in terms of these last 2 questions...how much does the addiction potential 'bleed into' your own decision making facilities when it comes to deciding on respectful and 'purely psychonautical' use of these chems....???

i hear more and more of you guys using mxe regularly in particular, which is why i started this as its own thread.....
heres my original post relevant to this:

man it strikes me as strange that many psychonauts are abusing disassociatives and making them 'regular use' drugs. i mean, i can understand the interest, i used to love dxm, and can see the habit-forming potential of it. so i can correlate that and see the obvious reasons why a nice clean powder disassociative could be even more compelling to consume regularly...but just the overall 'adjustment to one's life' or ajustment to ones daily mindset and/or emotional backdrop that would come from 'letting a disassociatvie come along for the ride' full-time seems like a kind of strange choice of 'passangers' in the car of consciousness.

any drug consumed once a week or so, and especially when used much more frequently than that, tends to cause a certain 'tone change' to one's life...largely from the after-glow melting into the next experience repeatedly. since it takes weeks or even a month i've read for the neurotransmitters to go back to 'normal' (arguable that there is such a thing as neurotransmission norms, but back to 'stable' and 'integrated' levels which one is used to). i can always feel little parts of each of my drug uses with me for quite a while after taking it and coming down.

to each their own, but it seems like a strange trend in consciousness and in the pscyonautical community for such a large demographic of our own to becoming a 'disassociative-head'.

do you guys (who are using mxe and/or ket with regularity) feel that the overall 'change' in one's daily mindset and emotions caused from regularly using these drugs is a beneficial adjustment to your daily mindset...? and also, does the 'ego softening' effects of regularly disassociating ones self have benefit as a 'launch pad' for psychedelic and/or meditative transcendent experiences...?

i'm not judging, just curious...to each their own. i'm just trying to extract understanding from the guinea pigs who happen to be doing the study of this material but really, be careful guys..! i love you guys, and don't want to see a generation get overly 'grayed out' from drifting too far and i'd also hate to see anyone lose their articulation and abilities to compile useful information and discussion of psychedelics...afterall thats what i'm here for..!! (not to say disassociative inherenetly do this, but some ketamine addicts i know are rather 'distant' and seemed kind of 'burnt out' from it, even though they're deep cats by nature..)

 

[Scunch]

Copy/pasted from the other thread, good questions btw

MXE isn't an effect drug as much as a journey for me still. I've been using for nearly 6-7 months, and during most of that time I've used daily (with a break of 1-3 weeks between orders). I've ritualized my use to a degree, first dose to get me feeling it, 2nd dose to bring me to the edge, and the third dose to let the universe collapse so I realize I can fly. It's still a highly mental drug that I submit myself to when I do it, but I suppose I have come to learn how to maximize my enjoyment and bring out some sensations that I particularly enjoy.

Oh yes, daily use certainly sticks around for a while. And negative or positive? I'd say overwhelmingly positive. I'm usually anxiety ridden anytime I'm in public. Nowadays my worst bouts of anxiety last 15 minutes. I'm comfortable with myself in public, and although I'm still not good with strangers I don't get overly concerned every moment I'm around them. As for it's effects on my private life, I'm often in a great mood with no discernable reason. I'm less often frustrated. As far as it's effects on psychedelics: I've grown a spiritual connection to an artist and when I listen to his music on psychedelics it's indescribable. Sometimes when listening to him sober I'll be sucked into a hyper-euphoric state reminiscent of MXE, but psychedelics it's transcendent anytime I take a moment to listen. As far as mental effects go: A little "out-there"ness that sticks around, I forgot words or my line of thought on occasion, and misspell more frequently. I do have fairly severe adult ADHD which makes most of these problems occur regardless (besides misspelling, I'm usually great at spelling), but they've become slightly more frequent.

I've found that if I'm taking MXE more than once a week I need a trip at least once a month to keep my mind anchored and in check. For a while I wasn't doing psychedelics but was doing MXE daily and frankly I was lost in there. I didn't do anything too crazy or ruin my life or anything, I was actually very functional, but I was not self aware and was losing my connection to reality. When I started taking AMT bimonthly with a friend about 3 months ago I found that it completed me, allowed me to anchor myself and keep my mindset more stable and centered. Without tripping semi frequently to get my mind right I become too lost in the state and it would be hard to control my use or gain as much therapeutic value from it as I do now.

As far as choosing dissociatives as a passenger...well, dissociatives just click with me. One of the few drugs that allow me to just slow down and enjoy being and occasionally not being. Opiates don't do it for me, the high is too subtle and straightforward, my mind cuts right through it and makes them hard to enjoy. Psychedelics are great but aren't forgiving when you abuse them. Alcohol wrecks my stomach and makes me feel like shit, doesn't really help my racing mind. Weed is nice sometimes, but it really triggers my anxiety and makes me hyper aware of--everything--, generally exacerbates the moment-to-moment symptoms of ADHD and I find it hard to enjoy it. Dissociatives are perfect in that the high doesn't stifle my mind, it occupies it perfectly, outside input becomes a lot less distracting, and I can get lost in music or an activity without needing 3 other things happening at once to allow me to focused on it. And the effects of daily MXE, though they make some symptoms of ADHD worse (impulsiveness, trouble accessing and categorizing memories, scatterbrain tendencies) they mediate some other symptoms alot. I generally need less stimulation to concentrate and am less overwhelmed by stimulation, I am able to generally socialize more successfully even if I don't feel engaged (I still struggle with this one, but noticeable improvement), my attention span is more stable so I'm less easily distracted and I can multitask easier. I'm also much more in control of when I zone into something and when I zone out of everything, I'm more able to do them intentionally and less likely to get completely lost in what I'm doing/thinking. A lot less natural thought loops too, and I cannot describe how godly that is.

 

[bluedolphin]

Much like Scunch has said, I've found daily MXE use (with the occasional week or two off) to be a constant journey, a constant learning process, and a constant enhancement of my levels of energy and enthusiasm, as well as drive to accomplish tasks that will benefit myself and increase my happiness.

Do I still "trip out" on MXE? No. It works as a really interesting stimulant, without the hard edge of drugs like amphetamines or cocaine. And without the comedown. And without being so hard on the body.

Ketamine is a different story. I used Ketamine daily for about 1.5 years straight and it basically sent me to the psyche ward. Bad news.

It is not possible to maintain a low-level constant high with Ketamine, like it easily is with MXE.

MXE is a much better drug for daily use and being able to function in society as well as on the job. In fact it can easily increase productivity if you don't go crazy with the doses. And tolerance builds more slowly than with Ketamine so you can still get some magic out of MXE even after extended use.

Ketamine is only better for one thing, and that is the K-Hole. But daily use of Ketamine will ruin your ability to K-Hole anyway. It is a drug best used sparingly.

 

[monkeyemergency]

I find disassociatives have completely lost their mystical and intrigueing fx, i find them very predictable now and use them cause they make me feel nice

 

[Biovail]

I don't understand how you guys can do this...

Dissociatives for me are a dark deep void of senseless truths. They reveal the obscene workings of the world shamelessly truthful ways. They've shown me a world where I'm not me, the conversations I have aren't mine. The very nature of my perception of reality shatters and I'm left looking at the pieces realizing that that's all they are, and any significance we give them beyond that is illusionary, a trick played on ourselves by our own minds. Even reason and fact have their applicable limits in this life and pushing those boundaries with dissociatives doesn't lead to enlightenment.

 

[Help?!?!]

I don't understand how you guys can do this...

Dissociatives for me are a dark deep void of senseless truths. They reveal the obscene workings of the world shamelessly truthful ways.

Well why do you fear this? Are you scared that the world is a dark place? Or did you just lack the knowledge and it came as a shock? I feel pretty similarly about them, I like to describe them as dark comedies. They reveal the darkness in life and myself but its nothing I didn't know before and the comic spin on it makes it pretty useful. I never cared and actually believe life is simply a joke anyways, at least in the grandiose terms we force ourselves to think of it as. I however thought I would be a monster when it came to something like ketamine and it is one that I used more when it was in my possession but rarely more than three times a week. Thats the highest i've ever gone with MXE as well, but i've barely used in like that. Maybe used it three times in a week twice. I thought I might have problems wanting to do it often but I actually found that feeling is pretty rare. MXE for me is a pretty grand experience as others describe and I just feel like I don't need to return that often. However i'm the same with nitrous oxide as well. Its one of the most miraculous chemicals i've had the pleasure of using but even when its constantly around I rarely pick it up unless i'm tripping and rarely do it more than once a week. I've always been a pretty firm believer that consistent use of any chemical is never going to be an extremely positive thing so this may well come into play. Sight will always be lost that way and sometimes even more.

 

[Biovail]

I can't interact with the world on a human level unless I view it from a [sane] human point of reference.

Take riding a skateboard for example. If I think too much about how to kickflip, I won't be able to do one. I have to attempt to do this trick without thinking about it. I have to feel the board and manipulate it with my body to what I want it to be, without any thought. The same applies here to dissociatives (I think).

In order to be human, my actions have to be more than actions. They have to be the manifestation of my thoughts. And those thoughts have to be more than thoughts. They must be a will towards an end, an entity. They aren't, but they have to be. While on dissociatives they aren't.


Other psychedelics remove the filter on reality, allowing you to go places you normally can't, but with reserve. Reality is still there, tantalizingly, waiting for you to tie everything together. Dissociatives suck you in. You see a side of reality normally hidden from view, but that side is all that exists, and that side becomes your reality.

Psychedelics allow you to see the other side. With dissociatives, you become the other side.

 

[jazz hands]

I'm the same way Biovail... It's like a cold, harsh reality that I find myself experiencing with dissociatives. I may be sensitive, but I can't see how they wouldn't distort reality to some degree when taken regularly, especially with the doses I'm seeing.

 

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

I've used dissociatives semi-regularly (say 1-2 times a month on average) for the past 3-4 years. Initially used DXM, and then MXE as it became available (Oddly, I'm probably one of the few people I've heard of that prefers DXM, since MXE gives me an unmistakeable dopaminergic comedown).

I've always found dissociatives to be among the more fascinating and "magical" drugs I have ever tried, which is my primary motivation for taking it. By taking it for "effects" I understand that to mean taking it for the physical effects, or the effects that occur while just on the cusp of entering a deeper experience (say a moderate 2nd plateau on DXM). I do this perhaps 50% of the time. This is more the case with MXE than DXM, because the dopamine drop-off inevitably makes the dissociative experience (at higher doses) uncomfortable and disturbing, which it rarely is on DXM or 4-meo-PCP. When taking DXM at higher doses I often encounter the "cold, harsh reality", as jazz hands mentioned, and as Biovail says, it becomes the overarching reality. I sometimes can't help speculating, even while sober, that dissociatives show one a glimpse of an external reality that is just as valid (in a metaphysical sense) as consensus reality. However, I consider the dissociative realm as a place for my unconscious mind to create its own private universe, which I can explore at my leisure.

As far as the "intrigue" of these experiences, I have not found it to decrease even after numerous encounters. Even at doses that do not cause one to trip, I feel an expanded awareness that does color my non-dissociative experiences as much as a month after any given use. These epiphanies have, on the whole, been positive or self-affirming without being delusional, but the curiosity to explore this side of my psyche, which I associate strongly with a natural dream-state, is definitely a factor in my use. Overall, I do feel that the mental adjustment caused by these drugs has a positive, beneficial (and long-lasting) effect on my daily mindset. I feel that overall the after-effects of my dissociative use have contributed to a more positive and optimistic mindset, to the degree that even months after a particularly meaningful experience, I will have significantly reduced anxiety in my day-to-day life. As far as using dissociatives as a launch pad for psychedelics, I have generally had dark, unpleasant experiences mixing the two (bar cannabinoids). I generally do not mix dissociatives with anything, as it detracts from the magic of even a light dose of a dissociative, and makes the experience much more unpredictable. However, as a testament to how intruiging the different flavors of the dissociative state are, I am looking forward to acquiring some 3-meo-PCE in the next few weeks, in order to investigate it's particular "flavor" of dissociative qualities. My experiences with this class of drugs have made me very curious of other NMDA antagonists, and their unique effects-profile.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Personally I'd think the insular quality of dissociatives is quite pleasant, and I wouldn't describe them as cold and dark, at least not in the ways you guys are. They whisk you away from your worries, it's wonderful. They're as much like opiates as they are psychedelics IMO.

I'd also like to repeat there warnings given at the subtlety with which you can become psychologically addicted, and the delusional thought patterns lasting into sobriety for some time if you get in the habit of taking them too frequently only increase the obsession with them. Folks out to be careful playing with such things (and unhealthy use patterns tend to worsen depression while making you feel like they're helping, well that's the way addiction works, but people who would normally by quite savvy to this with most drugs seem to not recognize dissociatives as having this quality).

 

[Mr. Tambourine Man]

Personally I'd think the insular quality of dissociatives is quite pleasant...They're as much like opiates as they are psychedelics IMO.

This is very true, and in some ways I find them to be more appealing even than opioids (although opioids are undoubtedly easier to integrate into day-to-day life than dissociatives, which leads to an increased abuse profile).

Also, I strongly associate NMDA antagonists with reduced opiate tolerance, so much so that I tend to view both dissociatives and opioids as two "sides" of the same drug family (as seen with DXM vs. Levomethophan). I will often use low doses of opioids the day after a strong dissociative experience, as I feel it helps me integrate my experience, as well as drastically reducing my tolerance, leadign to a contemplative state that opioids alone rarely achieve.

However, in the spirit of harm reduction, I'm not suggesting or condoning this particular strategy, as the decrease in tolerance can prove very dangerous. As a matter of fact, it was a contributing factor in an OD I suffered two years ago, so PLEASE be careful.

 

[Transcendence]

Ketamine is a different story. I used Ketamine daily for about 1.5 years straight and it basically sent me to the psyche ward. Bad news.

What effect did daily ketamine use have on you psychologically, and how does mxe differ? Also, are you concerned about bladder damage?

 

[bluedolphin]

What effect did daily ketamine use have on you psychologically, and how does mxe differ? Also, are you concerned about bladder damage?

Ketamine caused schizophrenic thought patterns and beliefs to emerge. I began having much trouble in determining fact from fiction. Also I lived with a girl at the time who was into some really weird shit and thinking the world was going to end, and I started to become paranoid thinking this may be true. Then I started to think some people were reptilian and the devil or some evil force was out to get me. And I was seeing syncronicity in everything around me which reinforced my new-found crazy beliefs.

Stopping Ketamine it took about 2 months before I really got my bearings straight.

With MXE, which I started using about 6 months after the last of the Ketamine, I've seen the opposite take place. No strange beliefs, only positive revelations which have actually made me more grounded, positive, happier, sane, and just a generally more well-balanced person. I have been using MXE for 10 months or more. I have been reasonable with my doses pretty much the entire time, with a few exceptions.

With Ketamine I found myself chasing the rabbit hole, which became impossible after a while. With MXE I find myself maintaining a constant level of "better, happier, more energy" which is a whole lot more compatible with real life.

As for bladder damage, no, I never got any bladder damage from insufflating a kilogram of Ketamine.. so I am not too concerned about it from MXE and haven't noticed it either.

Also I might note that during my Ketamine use I lost a lot of weight and my health went to shit. I also let myself become addicted to benzos pretty bad.

Using MXE I have got my health and physique in great shape as I am feeling motivated to do so, and MXE does not impair my ability to exercise or go skiing or hiking or anything like that. I do not get "wobbly" from MXE probably as I have been using DXM / Ket / MXE for a long time I am adjusted to that effect.

I actually enjoy MXE more with a tolerance than without. I could care less about chasing some M-Hole. I just want a light dissociative psychedelic dopaminergic drug to blend in with waking life.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

good information guys, thanks :D

what i meant by launch pad was a little mis leading though. i was more-so trying to address how the mindset of regular diassociative use was integrative into the psychedelic psyhonautical lifestyle.

do you guys think that if you took 2 of yourselves in parallel dimensions and gave them both the same regimen of psychedelic use over a year or two period. one with the addition of disassociatives used regularly alongside the psychedelics use..all other variables the same in the 2 parallels ..at the end of it how would the insights gained vary between the two...?

how would the disassociative use alter one's integration abilities, when it comes to the psychedelics experiences taken not specifically in combination with the disassociatives. do you think the effects that regular disassociative-use produces in the daily mindset are specifically conducive to 'psychedelic transcendence'? and especially important i feel, how is ones proceeding ability to integrate and readily utilize the experiences of psychedelics going to be effected by being disassociated in the coming days after the experiences..? qualitiative variations in insights, quantitiative amount of insight-fruits...?

how do the 2 parallel selves vary at the end of the hyper-dimensional experiment?

 

[Transcendence]

I actually enjoy MXE more with a tolerance than without. I could care less about chasing some M-Hole. I just want a light dissociative psychedelic dopaminergic drug to blend in with waking life.

Yeah, I don't see much value in the M-Hole. It's a really grimy confusing experience compared to ketamine. MXE tolerance is good in that regard. But the BLAM change in perspective after abstaining for a couple months and then using small doses again is a uniquely refreshing experience (sounds like some soft drink commercial).

MXE shows you how to not give a fuck, but in a proactive way if that makes any sense at all. Opiates and benzos are like a blanket that just cover up and shield from external reality, masking the good and the bad. MXE seems to sweep away stress and give you a choice in the matter. It's like coming up for air after living underwater.

The value of good psychedelics like LSD (to me at least) isn't treating anxiety or depression, but really enhancing the imagination (something that dissociatives don't seem to really do). Dissociatives clear away the muck and psychs sow the seeds. I want to punch myself in the face for saying that but I can't think of any other way to say it at the moment.

 

[bluedolphin]

Nah I think you said that pretty well. I agree with all you just said.

Perhaps I find more use in MXE (I might say all dissociatives but that is not really true, since I'm not into taking drugs that I've come to find less than ideal... so Ketamine and DXM -- which in the past I had a love affair with both -- no longer qualify in comparison to MXE) since I've had probably a few hundred psychedelic trips in my life. I think my imagination has been about as fully developed as it could be. I work as an artist and programmer and am a pretty good musician.

MXE shows you how not to give a fuck in a proactive way" your quote. I totally agree, it's almost like cheating. But cheating to attain a goal that can be put to good use for yourself and the people around you. So it also works to discourage use of other drugs, which might get in the way of that goal.

MXE might actually get me to quit, or seriously reduce the amount of marijuana I vaporize and smoke. I used to think the opposite, but I'm starting to think that pot just makes me dumb and occasionally paranoid.

 

[Transcendence]

Ha, yeah MXE made me throw out half a pound of weed and quit entirely for two months (which was the longest I've gone without it since I started). I usually fiend for the stuff but mxe is really good at eliminating that desire. Weed makes me so lazy and apathetic when I abuse it that I even lose interest in playing videogames or listening to music, all I do is eat junk and press f5. Pretty much just makes me sink into depression and avoid people entirely.

 

[<SpaceHead>]

"Using MXE I have got my health and physique in great shape as I am feeling motivated to do so, and MXE does not impair my ability to exercise or go skiing or hiking or anything like that. I do not get "wobbly" from MXE probably as I have been using DXM / Ket / MXE for a long time I am adjusted to that effect."
I have to say I think some of these posts are delusional reasons to justify MXE addiction. Bluedolphin you should take your prior ketamine experience into acount. Daily dissociative use ruined your life and now you're preaching daily MXE use like a health plan. This is painfully, obviously delusional. No offense to you personally, I've spent time doing ketamine daily and methoxetamne daily before too. They both made me an egotistical detached retard. In my experience most drugs that flood your brain with dopeamine make you an egotistical asshole with frequent use. I think these drugs can have extremely beneficial effects when used very infrequently. In my experience they are more beneficial when used with tryptamine's. I did dxm recently and found it really comfortable and warm and very therapeutic. It made me think it might be a better dissociative to use because its long duration makes it extremely difficult to ever use in daily life, although I'm sure people have. Incorporating dissociative use into your daily life, in myself and many of my friends experiences, has reliably led to delusional thinking, paranoia, depression and egocentricity. I'm not trying to preach but I've seen it seriously damage my life and several of my friends. These drugs have a very real potential to be "hard drugs" and they demand to be used in a respectful way or they will drive you insane and ruin your life eventually. Haven't you guys read about jon lilly!? You should all read the entire methoxetamine addiction thread. I hate to sound like a parent here but for the sake of harm reduction, especially for a new drug like MXE, I think it is dangerous and misleading to describe its frequent use as having such great benefits and not be problematic at all.

 

[zirbeldude]

two years ago i took dxm almost daily for a few months.
i began my day with 300mg. and took another 300mg in the evening.
and 1 or 2 days of a week i took trip doses in the evening ranging from 600mg to 1,2g.

looking back i was a different person. this just wasn´t me.
it turned me into a maniac asshole without noticing it.
i behaved in ways i usually never would.
like going in a pharmacy and asking for a ketamine injection. and even arguing with them.

at the time i just thought it´s fun and helps me with socializing and getting things done
(for sure i knew that it´s unhealthy but i didn´t care).

this whole thing ended with an amphetamine induced psychosis.

it took a few months for my cognitive abilities going back to normal.
my memory was totally fucked up. sometimes i wasn´t even able to differ memories of dreams
from things that really happened.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

good information guys, thanks :D

what i meant by launch pad was a little mis leading though. i was more-so trying to address how the mindset of regular diassociative use was integrative into the psychedelic psyhonautical lifestyle.

do you guys think that if you took 2 of yourselves in parallel dimensions and gave them both the same regimen of psychedelic use over a year or two period. one with the addition of disassociatives used regularly alongside the psychedelics use..all other variables the same in the 2 parallels ..at the end of it how would the insights gained vary between the two...?

how would the disassociative use alter one's integration abilities, when it comes to the psychedelics experiences taken not specifically in combination with the disassociatives. do you think the effects that regular disassociative-use produces in the daily mindset are specifically conducive to 'psychedelic transcendence'? and especially important i feel, how is ones proceeding ability to integrate and readily utilize the experiences of psychedelics going to be effected by being disassociated in the coming days after the experiences..? qualitiative variations in insights, quantitiative amount of insight-fruits...?

how do the 2 parallel selves vary at the end of the hyper-dimensional experiment?

I don't even know, I struggle to determine what beneficial effects psychs may or may not have granted me by themselves. Throwing in dissociatives and supposed benefits....I personally feel uncomfortable even speculating on the matter. Of course, I use dissociatives more as opiates (that are intellecutually interesting) than as mind-expanding substances (well certainly I do love their entheogenic effects, but I tend to toss them out as of no value, well, kind of, the things they have left me with are mostly unhealthy and thinking about them is not any good for my mental well being).