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Question for piracetam users

I've commented in several other threads (and perhaps here) that alcohol + piracetam + 5-HTP is LOTS of fun.

lostNfound: piracetam's primary mode of action is not through vasodilation. The exact mechanism is uncertain, but appears to relate to ion channels. Piracetam DOES have a mild vasodilatory effect after sustained use, but not anything like good vasodilators.

What makes you assume that it's alcohol that's killing your brain cells? Much of the hangover is probably from acetyldehyde + dehydration + trace products in your drink.

It's poor logic that piracetam will damage you more by exposing your brain to more alcohol. If your brain was exposed to more alcohol, then you'd simply be drunker. The equivalent effect is simply having more alcohol than you would have had otherwise....

Besides, studies show piracetam is neuroprotective with alcohol anyway:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9269855
Alcohol Alcohol. 1997 Jul-Aug;32(4):471-84. Related Articles,Links

The GABAergic system of the dentate gyrus after withdrawal from chronic alcohol consumption: effects of intracerebral grafting and putative neuroprotective agents.

Cadete-Leite A, Brandao F, Andrade JP, Ribeiro-da-Silva A, Paula-Barbosa MM.

Department of Anatomy, Porto Medical School, Portugal.

We have demonstrated that, in the rat hippocampal formation, withdrawal from chronic alcohol consumption aggravates the ethanol-induced loss of pyramidal neurons and dentate granule cells. We have also shown that intracerebral grafting and piracetam could have a protective effect in these conditions. In this study we utilized immunocytochemical methods to investigate whether gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)ergic dentate gyrus cells, which are known to be inhibitory, were also affected by withdrawal from alcohol and, if so, whether putative neuroprotective agents could ameliorate the alterations found. Rats were alcohol-fed for 6 months and further divided into several groups: (1) alcohol-fed for an extra 6 months; (2) withdrawn from alcohol for 6 months; (3) withdrawn and grafted with newborn rat hippocampal tissue; (4) withdrawn and orally treated with piracetam for 6 months; (5) withdrawn and treated systemically with monosialoganglioside GM1 for 6 months; (6) withdrawn and treated with the vehicle used to dissolve the GM1. Control animals were pair-fed. All animals were killed 12 months after the beginning of the experiment and processed for GABA immunocytochemistry. GABA-immunoreactive (IR) neurons in the dentate gyrus were quantified and we found that alcohol-fed animals had a significant reduction in the numerical profile density of GABA-IR neurons in the dentate gyrus as a whole and in the hilus and in the granular layer of the suprapyramidal limb. Withdrawal from alcohol aggravated the GABAergic neuronal loss. Of the treatments used, only piracetam had a striking beneficial effect. Data gathered from the present work and from our previous studies indicate that the neuronal loss following chronic alcohol consumption and withdrawal affects both excitatory and inhibitory neurons in the dentate gyrus and that piracetam may have a useful protective role in this condition.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7639963
Alcohol. 1995 May-Jun;12(3):279-88. Related Articles,Links

Piracetam impedes hippocampal neuronal loss during withdrawal after chronic alcohol intake.

Brandao F, Paula-Barbosa MM, Cadete-Leite A.

Department of Anatomy, Porto Medical School, Portugal.

In previous studies we have demonstrated that prolonged ethanol consumption induced hippocampal neuronal loss. In addition, we have shown that withdrawal after chronic alcohol intake augmented such degenerative activity leading to increased neuronal death in all subregions of the hippocampal formation but in the CA3 field. In an attempt to reverse this situation, we tested, during the withdrawal period, the effects of piracetam (2-oxo-1-pyrrolidine acetamide), a cyclic derivative of gamma-aminobutyric acid, as there is previous evidence that it might act as a neuronoprotective agent. The total number of dentate granule, hilar, and CA3 and CA1 pyramidal cells of the hippocampal formation were estimated using unbiased stereological methods. We found out that in animals treated with piracetam the numbers of dentate granule, hilar, and CA1 pyramidal cells were significantly higher than in pure withdrawn animals, and did not differ from those of alcohol-treated rats that did not undergo withdrawal. These data suggest that piracetam treatment impedes, during withdrawal, the pursuing of neuronal degeneration.
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Here's some more reading material:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6677895
Pol J Pharmacol Pharm. 1983 Nov-Dec;35(6):451-65. Related Articles,Links

The effect of piracetam on the central action of ethanol in mice and rabbits.

Czarnecka E, Stanislawska E.

The effect of combined single administration of ethanol and piracetam on the rabbit EEG and on locomotor activity and ethanol sleep in mice was investigated. In addition, the effect of prolonged administration of piracetam together with ethanol on rabbit EEG and after-discharges evoked by electrical stimulation of the hippocampus was studied. The blood ethanol concentrations were also monitored. Single administration of piracetam did not change the effects of ethanol, while when given prolongly with ethanol piracetam attenuated the effects of ethanol. Piracetam did not affect the ethanol blood level.
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da_sense said:
ozbreaker piracetam is a long term drug, you usually need to take it longer to feel it. Choline is present in many foods like eggs and sardines, look for it on google.
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I've been on it for about 3 weeks now - Thanks for the quick answer, i reallly should have done my own research anyhow :)
 
Velocidex, what dose of piracetam + 5-htp would you recommend with a heavy drinking session (e.g. 10+ standard drinks on a moderate tolerance)? I'll give it a spin on the weekend and write up a trip report.
 
5htp+alcohol=seizure! No one should ever take 5htp with alcohol.
 
tokey said:
5htp+alcohol=seizure! No one should ever take 5htp with alcohol.
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In seizure prone individuals, perhaps, but they're likely to know who they are already.

Serotonin enhancing drugs lower the seizure threshold, as does alcohol.

If you can take MDMA without seizures, you're not going to have a problem with 5-HTP and alcohol
 
aunty establishment said:
Velocidex, what dose of piracetam + 5-htp would you recommend with a heavy drinking session (e.g. 10+ standard drinks on a moderate tolerance)? I'll give it a spin on the weekend and write up a trip report.
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Ive found that 6g of piracetam + 200mg 5-HTP + 1.5 phenylalanine + alcohol produces a fun experience. It's not pills, but its certainly got a few similarities.
 
would there be any problems combining:

piracetam
choline or centrophenoxine
5-htp
niacinamide
?
 
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All that suggests is that randycaver is prone to seizures. I've seen dozens upon dozens upon dozens of people take this with no ill effects whatsoever.

The suggestion that your liver has a "hard time" metabolising both is entirely wrong. Alcohol is metabolised via alcohol dehydrogenase and subsequent pathways. 5-HTP is metabolised via amino acid decarboxylase to serotonin and then via MAOA to 5-HIAA.

She appears to have a problem with it, so I guess the only conclusion is that its possible. As I said, I've never ever seen anyone have a problem with it.

It's worth noting that piracetam has antiseizure properties, even if only mild ones. Levitiracetam is a decently researched antiseizure drug.
 
VelocideX said:
lostNfound: piracetam's primary mode of action is not through vasodilation. Besides, studies show piracetam is neuroprotective with alcohol anyway: ..............................................................................................................

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9269855
[rl]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7639963[/url]
Here's some more reading material:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6677895
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Cool, cheers for that Velocidex. I don't think I worded myself correctly but that's cool, that was some good reading.
Thanks for correcting me. I'll read up more on the link you posted.

That aside, does anyone get a dirty feeling from piracetam sometimes. It's hard to describe. I feel extra alert heightened senses, slightly speedy almost, yet dirty at the same time with doses from about 2G and higher.
Only I can describe it is that it feels as if my pores close up and my skin isnt "breathing",for better use of the word.

I also get a similar feeling on occasion when using 5-htp in large doses after taking a big night on pills. maybe 300G or more over a couple of hours.

anyone?
 
lostNfound said:
That aside, does anyone get a dirty feeling from piracetam sometimes. It's hard to describe. I feel extra alert heightened senses, slightly speedy almost, yet dirty at the same time with doses from about 2G and higher.
Only I can describe it is that it feels as if my pores close up and my skin isnt "breathing",for better use of the word.

I also get a similar feeling on occasion when using 5-htp in large doses after taking a big night on pills. maybe 300G or more over a couple of hours.

anyone?
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High doses of piracetam (2400 mg+ at once) make me feel clumsy and a bit cloudy headed.

I took 200mg of 5-HTP (did pills on the weekend), 1600mg of piracetam and 250mg of centrophenoxine and I felt extremely nauseous for about 15-20 minutes (nearly threw up) but it passed and felt pleasant afterwards.
 
Well I just got my 700gram tub of Piracetam today. Took 1640mg twice today. I will keep at that dose to see what happens. going to use it long term for cognitive enhancement since I'm an old fart . Also using modafinil with it. Hoping the combo will be synerginistic(sp?). Perhaps my spelling will improve;)
 
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