Question about half-lives and duration - quetiapine vs olanzapine

[Anon54]

Im currently taking the antipsychotic Zyprexa & I find myself a little tired during the day.
According to wikipedia Zyprexa has a half-life of 21–54 hrs
Does this mean that 50 hrs later Im I may still be feeling the effects of the drug and it's still only half out of my body?

I used to take Seroquel which only has a half-life of 6 hrs.
Does this mean that it has a shorter duration in effect or what?

I may switch back to Seroquel if this is the case but I'm assuming that the half-life of a drug has nothing to do with its duration because according to wikipedia Valium has a half-life of 20-100 hours (36-200 hours for main active metabolite) & when I dose Valium, although it lasts a long time I certainly dont feel half as high as I did after first taking it 2-3 days later. If this were the the case than u could possibly still be under the influence of taking the Valium 400 hrs later.

So I'm just wondering how it works because if the half-life of a drug is an indication of its duration than maybe I should switch back to Seroquel so Im less tired during the day.

I use antipsyhotics for imsomnia & don't want to be under the influence of them during the day

...
well I just read on erowid under dose of Zyprexa:
Onset : 60 minutes
Duration : 6 hours
Normal After Effects : 24 hours

it doesnt state Seroquels duration.

 

[Tripman]

The elimination half life of a drug does in fact have a lot to do with the duration that the drug is taking effect upon you.

You won't particularly notice the full effect of a drug towards the later parts of its half life, but it is still working. For example, this is why diazepam and clonazepam are great for tapering from benzodiazepines because they stay in your system for a longer period of time.

If you have to take an anti-psychotic for insomnia then quetiapine (seroquel) is your best bet. However, taking an anti-psychotic for insomnia is a terrible idea IMO and it's disgusting how over prescribed they are for sleep... Taking Olanzapine (zyprexa) for sleep is honestly a terrible idea... These kind of drugs completely change you... I was prescribed both seroquel and zyprexa for Bi-polar disorder and the effect they had upon me was huge, I even still now have some tardive dyskinesia issues 8 months after quitting them.

 

[Anon54]

im sorry to hear that tripman. hoe those symtoms get better over time

I dont know what else i can use for insomnia. no amount of benzos will actually make me wanna sleep & my dr doesnt like precribing them anyway.

tardive dyskinesia? I'll do a bit of research on that on wikipedia
this would only occur in a small % of ppl right? otherwise why would they be precribed to me?
Im going to have to have a word with my dr for not warning me about this if it occurs commonly. i wont be happy. the last night i need is symptoms of more anxiety

how many mg of zyprexa and seroquel were u taking?
how long were u taking them for?
have u stopped now?
what are u taking instead?

it says on wikipedia that it's not reccomended to take small doses of seroquel long term. im not sure why. it doesnt say why.

I take 5-10mg of zyprexa each night

the dr tells me that it's good for anxiety/insomnia. he probably just desnt wanna give me anything addicitve which his right cuz i do abuse benzos.

i dont want any permenent damage. Ive been taking antipychotics for a year now & I dont seem to be having any side effects.

u'r scarring me off taking them

 

[Tripman]

When I was taking seroquel I would take 400mg XR in the morning and 600mg IR in the evening. When I was taking Zyprexa it was 30mg daily. Also had a stint on 100mg thorazine which was one of the worst times I've had in my life.

I have a similar problem with Benzo's for sleep. My daily benzo RX's used to be 120mg Diazepam, 12mg Alprazolam and 2mg Flunitrazepam... Still had a lot of issues sleeping. At the moment I am scripted 1mg Triazolam for sleep, which doesn't really put me to sleep.

Many doctors will tell you that they are good for anxiety and insomnia, which essentially they are... What you have to remember however is what these drugs are - Anti-psychotics... They do a lot more than work as anxiolytics and sedatives...

Taking anti-psychotics for long periods of time can have permanent side effects in the long run.

They greatly effect cognitive function to the point where you basically end up in a zombie like state with no highs or lows, just flat.

Valdoxan is fairly great for sleep, however it is also an anti-depressant, though I would consider it a better bet than anti-psychs.

 

[Anon54]

Valdoxan? what drug is that. ive tried mirtazepine before but it gave me vivid dreams.
I found this article on tardive dystonia: http://www.power2u.org/articles/selfhelp/tardive.html

What causes tardive dyskinesia and tardive dystonia?
The exact ways in which psychiatric medications cause tardive dyskinesia and tardive dystonia is still under debate. However, there is no doubt that traditional anti-psychotic drugs cause these disorders in some people who use them. Examples of medications which cause these movement disorders include Thorazine, Stelazine, Haldol, and Prolixin. The relatively new drug Zyprexa (Olanzapine) has been found to cause TD. The risk of TD and other movement disorders cannot be ruled out for people using Risperdal (risperidone). At this time no cases of tardive dyskinesia have been reported for people using Clozaril (clozapine).

Who will get tardive dyskinesia and tardive dystonia?Although the statistics vary somewhat, there is no doubt that a significant percentage of people who use neuroleptic or "anti-psychotic" medications will develop a movement disorder caused by those medications. Some studies estimate there are already 250,000-400,000 people in the United States who have tardive dyskinesia. Different studies quote different rates of tardive dyskinesia ranging from 15%-20% for people using the drugs for more than three years, to as much as 40%-70% of elderly people with long term use. The rates at which tardive dystonia occurs has not been reliably established.

These statistics tell us that although many people do develop movement disorders as a result of using psychiatric medications, some people do not. Unfortunately there is no way to predict who will and will not develop TD. What seems certain is this: the longer we use certain neuroleptic or antipsychotic medications, the greater our chance of developing tardive dyskinesia and/or tardive dystonia

15-20% is quite alot & over half of elderly ppl omg. im not happy with my dr for not warning me about this.
they should have just kept letting me have a fucken pack of valium a month. benzo w/d isnt permenent
Im going to go do some more reading but it seems like u were taking a hell of alot more than what I was

I dont know how the fuck u got precribed that many benzos but yeah I gotta take atleast 80mg of diaz to get any anxiety releif. thats why i dont get precribed em. they actually consitered me taing 20mg a day of valium to be abuse & put me on antipsychotics. crazy

...anyways so u think that seroquel doesnt last as long?
i want my body to have a beak during the day from antipychotics

 

[Tripman]

Agomelatine - Valdoxan

It's a melatonin receptor agonist.

I can't stay still for anytime at all after my anti-psychotic use... I twitch uncontrollably basically.

20mg of valium a day is not in the slightest bit abusive... I mean look at my old daily rx ha.

It took a lot to get prescribed that many benzo's, 7 psychiatric institution visits for a combined total of over 100 days...

 

[Anon54]

the save link wont work when I go to edit.
I was going to add that ive been daignosed with general anxiety disorder.
I was consitered a drug addict when i wanted to take 20mg a day & had to go & see a fucken drug & alcohol councellor. shit

anyways. im only taking 5-10mg of zyprexa. it does help me sleep. i shouldnt be to worried should I?

u think if i switch to seroquel it wont last as long as zyprexa & i'll feel less tired during the day?

I might change drs. my dr wont give me benzos anymore.
I have to get them other ways
in other words they're pretty easy for me to get but they cost
ive also been precribed xanax & temazepam before.
6mg of xanax got rid of my anxiety pretty good.
alcohol works good too but I get a tolerance to it within a day & cant stand hangovers

 

[Tripman]

The link that i posted? Do a quick research on Agomelatine then.

I don't see why they have an issue with prescribing you benzodiazepines if you've been diagnosed with GAD...

I think that seroquel would be better to take than olanzapine for sleep... They will both make you feel a bit groggy during the day, but Seroquel less so. Especially if you're only taking 25-50 mgs or so.

Valium isn't really a very good benzo for sleep however, the hypnotics would undoubtedly work better, temazepam, nitrazepam, lormetazepam, triazolam, flunitrazepam etc.

Alprazolam is a good one to get prescribed for GAD if you suffer from panic attacks, and it also generally works pretty well for sleep.

 

[Anon54]

How many individuals currently have TD?

It is not known how many individuals currently have TD. No large scale epidemiological prevalence survey has been done. It would also change because TD can be transient or persistent, and it can be more common in some persons with risk factors than others.

However, there have been several follow-up studies of individuals who start taking antipsychotics in order to measure the annual occurrence (incidence) of TD. Eight studies in young individuals (average age 29 years) receiving the older antipsychotics showed practically the same rate of 5% of those persons develop TD every year, year after year, until eventually almost 50-60% develop TD over their lifetime. The incidence of TD is higher in older individuals (average age 65 years) where our studies have shown that TD occurs in 26% after only one year of exposure to haloperidol, which increases to 52% after two years and up to 60% after three years.

Do the newer generation atypical antipsychotics pose a lower risk of TD?

Yes, the newer atypical antipsychotics are much safer than the older generation when it comes to TD. The first year incidence of TD with risperidone, olanzapine, quetiapine, and ziprasidone in young persons about 0.5%, which is ten-fold lower than with haloperidol. Similarly, the incidence of TD with atypical antipsychotics in the first year in geriatric patients is 2.5%, which is also ten-fold lower than with haloperidol. There is also growing evidence that the incidence is even lower in subsequent years of exposure to atypicals. The problem of TD has been significantly reduced with the advent and wide-spread use of atypical antipsychotics.

Abstract
PURPOSE OF REVIEW: To provide an update on tardive dyskinesia rates in patients treated with first-generation or second-generation antipsychotics in studies published since the last systematic review in 2004.

RECENT FINDINGS: Across 12 trials (n = 28 051, age 39.7 years, 59.7% male, 70.9% white, followed for 463 925 person-years), the annualized tardive dyskinesia incidence was 3.9% for second-generation antipsychotics and 5.5% for first-generation antipsychotics. Stratified by age, annual tardive dyskinesia incidence rates were 0.35% with second-generation antipsychotics in children, 2.98% with second-generation antipsychotics versus 7.7% with first-generation antipsychotics (P < 0.0001) in adults, and 5.2% with second-generation antipsychotics versus 5.2% with first-generation antipsychotics (P = 0.865) in the elderly (based almost exclusively on one retrospective cohort study). In four adult studies (n = 2088, age 41.2 years, 71.2% male, 62.0% white), tardive dyskinesia prevalence rates were 13.1% for second-generation antipsychotics, 15.6% for antipsychotic-free patients, and 32.4% for first-generation antipsychotics (P < 0.0001).

SUMMARY: Current evidence supports a lower tardive dyskinesia risk for second-generation antipsychotics than for first-generation antipsychotics. Tardive dyskinesia incidence was higher with second-generation antipsychotics than previously reported, possibly due to recent studies with relatively short mean durations and use of nonstandard tardive dyskinesia definitions.

the ricks dont seem to high as it seems. Id have to take around atleast 100mg of Seroquel to feel anyting & probably 200mg to get to sleep. is says on wikipedia that low doses like that shouldnt be precribed for long term

Dosage:
At very low doses quetiapine acts primarily as a histamine receptor blocker (antihistamine) and α1-adrenergic blocker. When the dose is increased quetiapine activates the adrenergic system and binds strongly to serotonin receptors and autoreceptors. At high doses quetiapine starts blocking significant amounts of dopamine receptors.[32][33] Use of low-dose quetiapine is not recommended except temporarily during drug titration period (less than 30 days).[34]

I wanna eventually only take 100mg. they actually changed the wiki article it used to say that doses under 250mg arnt reccomended for long term use.
that's what's put me off going back to Seroquel. I have no idea why it's not reommeded to use less than 250mg except temporarily during drug titration period

is there anyone out there who has been taking less than 250mg of Seroquel a night long term?

I dont understant why it's not reccomended

I was only suppose to take 5mg of Valium a day. that dose is a joke. & when i was found out taking more i got cut off. I cant get them any more even though ive never had a real addiction to them

I would be happy to get 50 valiums a month & it would do me less harm than the APs Im taking. stupid drs with there "its addictive" bs

I prefer valium over temazepam too but ive heard that temazepam is the only benzos that doesnt mess around with ya REM sleep. problem is a can only get a very mild effect no matter how many i take

 

[Tripman]

Yeah temazepam are useless IMO, but they seem to work well for some people. Drug i've had most success with is Flunitrazepam, however getting doctors to prescribe you Rohypnol isn't exactly easy ha.

I can't imagine why 50 valiums a month is not possible for you... You have GAD and sleep issues... Jesus...

I would say that anyone taking large doses of anti-psychotics daily for over a year it is highly likely they will develop TD. I guess though, I was on 1000mg daily or seroquel, and often was given olanzapine, thorazine and even zuclopenthixol.

 

[Anon54]

yeah i souldnt worry to much im only taking 5-10mg zyprexa like I said. I have taken up to 400mg seroquel before but I didnt need that much. I could get by on 200mg. yeah i know im pissed off its not fair.
im turning to other drugs. i have to do codeine all the time or get oxy. & sometimes i drink just to get rid of anxiety.
i feel sorry for u having to have to take all that crap. my dr wont budge wont even let me have 5mg if im having a panic attack. no compasion. but like i said i still get em.
yeah i dont even feel 150mg of temazepam. & they only come in 10mg here. i swear i get higher from a cup of tea.
anyways i might cut down to just 5mg zyprexa. see if i keep feeling tired. & i might have to get myself a knew dr. save myself some money.
oh so thats what Flunitrazepam is roofies. I cant beleive u could get out of bed taking that much seroquel.
why dont u just drink some chamomile tea lol

 

[Tripman]

Are you in australia? I ask because I know we only get 10mg and a lot of other countries have 30...

Haha i am actually off it all now thankfully! Only on 40mg escitalopram and 1mg triazolam as needed.

Trust me on that much seroquel i don't think I was actually ever awake. I was a zombie in a walking coma...

I'd definitely get a new doctor. Oxy and codeine and drinking for anxiety are far worse than benzo's ha, but I know what it's like.

 

[Anon54]

yeah man im from aus.
Ive had my olanzapine so im off to bed.
thanks for the advice.

yeah i try to explain all that to the dr but he wont listen.
all i can get is ADs & APs. might be time to find a knew dr

I dont know how the fuck u got off such high doses of benzos & APs. uve done well.
I might change back seroquel. I'll have to ask my dr why wiki says that u shouldnt have low doses long-term. I dont understand that at all.
Does anyone know why wikipedia says that?
i think this zyprexa is making me put on weight & I know Seroquel doesnt put on as much weight. ive done my research on that and because it has a shorter half life I might be less tired throughout the day plus seroquel kicks in quicker too.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

Anon54, I feel you may be right about the doctor thing...if the APs and ADs they've got you on aren't working and they're not willing to help you explore other options, you do have the right to change doctors.

Good luck!

 

[Venrak]

...i think this zyprexa is making me put on weight ...

I would seriously watch your weight if you're on olanzapine(zyprexa) as I used to have a very fast metabolism, couldn't put on weight etc, and then I was put on Olanzapine 10mg nightly and in four months I gained 50 pounds. Granted, I was trying to put on weight anyway, but once I reached my goal weight I really had to watch what I eat or I can easily gain 5 pounds a week.

 

[Vaya]

Significant weight gain is a common side effect of many (if not all) of the atypical antipsychotics - Zyprexa, Seroquel, Risperdal, Geodon, etc. etc. I've experienced it myself, it's fuckin' startling!

One more thing: Up until very recently I was employed on the "front lines" of a psychiatric facility and tardive dyskinesia is not at all as uncommon as you'd think. During my tenure there I worked with in the ballpark of 7,500-7,700 people ages 5-97 was the oldest. And it was part of the reasons I quit. Pumping out adult dosages of anti-psychotics that aren't even approved for pediatric use into these children and adolescents, day after day. I would estimate a healthy 30% of those on excessive antipsychotic treatment (such as Zyprexa for Manic Depression) developed very mild to quite severe telltale signs of TD. I fed many patients who would not control their faces in order that they not choke or bite their tongues.

But even moreso?!? They were no better off than when they had come in with an exacerbation of paranoid shizophrenia or extremely low-functioning Asperger's or perverted sex fetishes or Oppositional Defiant Disorder - they left as drones with minds as cloudy as I've come to see 'em (when recreational drugs are taken out of account). I routinely pitied these people. That hospital utilized medicines and chemical restraint way too much.

I wholeheartedly agree with those posters who mentioned their fundamental opposition to the over-prescription of AAP's. I mean, fuck's sake - over prescribing of amphetamines holds a bright candle to indiscriminately dispensing AAP's. Someone else said it - even at the lowest doses of several (12.5mg Seroquel or 0.25 Risperdal) left my affect blunted and ineffectual, as though my head were inside a glass box, or as though I were viewing reality from the moon. It was really awful, and there are plenty of things out there that will help you sleep. Perhaps a short-acting benzodiazepine such as Halcion? Best one I've ever been prescribed. I enjoyed Temazepam for a week and then it just got ineffective. Valerian root, 5-HTP, GABA, Phenibut, kava kava, chamomile tea, warm milk and honey, MELA-FUCKIN-TONIN (can't stress this one enough), proper sleep hygiene, maybe some benadryl if you really need to supplement even more. But for your own sake, man! None of this deleterious AAP fad for you...!
Hope you can get outta that one. I would highly suggest it, in fact.

~ vaya

 

[Anon54]

I do suffer from anxiety/insomnia & somtimes APs have helped expecially with insomnia

I feel tired all the time through the day though. I only take 5-mg of Zprexa. Do u think it could be the Zyprexa making me feel this way?

Would Seroquel wear out of my system faster because it has a much shorter half-life giving me a break from the sedation during the day?

 

[effie]

^ it could well be, olanzapine (Zyprexa) often makes people feel tired the next day even at low doses...

Shorter half life does mean the drug is eliminated from your body faster, yes. However the duration you feel it for also has to do with what serum levels are needed for it to be felt - so a drug could hang around in your system a long time but you might not feel it, for example. But yes, quetiapine (Seroquel) should have less of an effect the next day than olanzapine. It also generally has fewer side effects; however, it is still an antipsychotic so make sure the risks are worth the benefits for you.

 

[Vaya]

I do suffer from anxiety/insomnia & somtimes APs have helped expecially with insomnia

I feel tired all the time through the day though. I only take 5-mg of Zprexa. Do u think it could be the Zyprexa making me feel this way?

Would Seroquel wear out of my system faster because it has a much shorter half-life giving me a break from the sedation during the day?

I'd hasten to wager that yes, it is the Zyprexa. Most of the super out-of-it patients at the psych hospital were on Zyprexa, and sometimes even in combination with Seroquel, Depakote, Trazadone, etc.
It just didn't look like any kind of life at all. Dosage-dependant, of course, but in my experience even low-dose AAP's suck a bit of life out of me.

~ vaya

 

[Oxide]

I'd hasten to wager that yes, it is the Zyprexa. Most of the super out-of-it patients at the psych hospital were on Zyprexa, and sometimes even in combination with Seroquel, Depakote, Trazadone, etc.
It just didn't look like any kind of life at all. Dosage-dependant, of course, but in my experience even low-dose AAP's suck a bit of life out of me.

~ vaya

Totally agree.

I'm looking at you, seroquel. ಠ_ಠ