Quantum Mechanics, Power of thought, Reality- Truly amazing

[PGTips]

That's not how it works. You have to prove it does. It's like saying "If you can't prove God doesn't exist, you should believe he does". No, you have to prove something which isn't immediately obvious, not people disprove it.

I am not saying it validates this view i was just using it as an example that much more could be going on around us then we realized. String theory does state that.

I think you're a little confused about what it implies.

Saying there's extra particles or the topology of space-time isn't what it immediately appears to be is WAY different from saying our thoughts create reality.

Pretty much any new scientific theory says "We didn't know it all before", infact that much is obvious. That doesn't mean science says "Accept everything which isn't proved false".

As I said, I've no problems with people wanting to believe this, just they should leave science out of it. Quantum mechanics seems to be a HUGE focal point for cranks, either because they don't like it and want to replace it with some kind of classical dynamics or because of the opposite, they see it as some kind of validation for their more wacked out ideas.

String theory seems to be taking over that mantle now, since it predicts more dimensions. Suddenly "What if the extra dimensions are thought or pure energy!" cranks come out of the woodwork, without having any idea at all about what string theory actually says about space-time. Hell, they don't understand what the meaning of dimension is!

See my avatar? That's a 6 dimensional compactified manifold from string theory. That's what's string theory is about, not thought and higher dimensional beings.

 

[TheGreeenGlob]

That's not how it works. You have to prove it does. It's like saying "If you can't prove God doesn't exist, you should believe he does". No, you have to prove something which isn't immediately obvious, not people disprove it.
I think you're a little confused about what it implies.

I think you are a little confused of what i meant.

I was just saying that there is much more going on then we can visual see with our eyes. I was only using string theory as an example because in string theory there is much more going on then meets the eye.. Get what i'm saying? I am not saying string theory has any other correlation to what i am saying. I have done plenty or research on string theory and i know that it says nothing about what i was discussing, i was just using it as an example that much more could be going on in "reality" then most of us want to believe or that our eyes can see

 

[PGTips]

I have done plenty or research on string theory

You'll forgive me if I don't believe you've researched it properly if you considered WTBDWK to be a good film. Even if you considered the general message good, you'd have mentioned the terrible physics conclusions they draw, if you knew enough quantum mechanics to be familiar with string theory on more than "It's about strings!" level.

 

[TheGreeenGlob]

You'll forgive me if I don't believe you've researched it properly if you considered WTBDWK to be a good film. Even if you considered the general message good, you'd have mentioned the terrible physics conclusions they draw, if you knew enough quantum mechanics to be familiar with string theory on more than "It's about strings!" level.

Lol i would have to say i know a little more than that. I am not saying i am an expert in the field or anything but i have read a book on it, watched the elegant universe by pbs, and read various paper on it. This is no way qualifies me as an expert but i don't think am on the base level.

As i have stated many times throughout this thread i was simply starting this thread to discuss the awesome power of thought and it's effect on life. I guess you missed out on that part, which means you prob didn't read many of my other posts on this thread

 

[PGTips]

Lol i would have to say i know a little more than that. I am not saying i am an expert in the field or anything but i have read a book on it, watched the elegant universe by pbs, and read various paper on it. This is no way qualifies me as an expert but i don't think am on the base level.

What papers? If you count 'The Elegant Universe' and it's TV version as giving you proper understanding you're a little mistaken and I'm not sure you appreciate what proper material on string theory is like. The PBS show is great for introducing people to string theory but totally devoid of specifics. If you've not done the maths of it, I find it hard to believe you've read any proper papers on it. Proper papers like this.

I've done plenty of maths and physics, even a course in string theory by one of the people in the documentary but I can't understand 98% of the stuff published on string theory and the 2% I can involved a HUGE amount of reading and plenty of ground work.

I'm not trying to showboat, I'm attempting to convey that anyone versed enough in string theory to actually read papers published by people like Witten, Green, Greene, Schwarz and Polchinski (they all appear in the PBS documentary) wouldn't for a second think WTBDWK is even close to describing quantum mechanics from a scientific point of view.

The views put forward in the film are those of a cult who are attempting to scam money out of mostly young, somewhat naive people who like the whole "We're really important in the universe, we can transcend this crappy life etc" notion.

As I said, only one person in the film is actually a physicist and they editted his comments to completely reverse his actual opinion. He has publicly stated that.

The title of the film is right, what the fuck do they know?!

 

[TheGreeenGlob]

The views put forward in the film are those of a cult who are attempting to scam money out of mostly young, somewhat naive people who like the whole "We're really important in the universe, we can transcend this crappy life etc" notion.

Can you please explain to me how they are trying to scam money from young people. In no where in the video do the ask for donations and they don't ask you to buy the video since you can download it for FREE. Please explain how they are trying to scam money.

Also i don't know how this got onto a topic of string theory. The only reason i brought it up at all was to convey how little we are aware of though our senses and that there could be alot of "reality" going on right in front of us that we are unaware of. That is it. I am not comparing string theory to quantum mechanics or anything. You seem to be stuck arguing about something you **think** that i meant. Even though i've tried to explain in every post that wasn't what i meant.

For the last time the only reason I brought up string theory was to prove a point about our senses. Someone was arguing that we can see everything that goes on in "reality". I simply argued that there was much more in front of us that we are unaware of. String theory was just an example of how things could be going on right around us that we are unaware of. That is it.

This will probabiltiy be the 5th time i have typed this so i hope this time it does not go unnoticed. This thread was made to really discuss the awesome power of thought. Please read my whole post before you jump off the handle with your own personal views.

 

[PGTips]

It was initially released as a DVD. Also, given it's essentially an advertisment for their cult, they are attempting to get people interested enough in 'Ramtha' to go to their group activities and conferences about 'self affirmation' or whatever the hell it is. Those can costs thousands of dollars.

 

[TheGreeenGlob]

i see what ur saying but i still would like to know how they would make money on this. They don't mention anything about "Ramtha" in the entire movie let alone asking people to join it. They only time the world even appears in in the credits. I think if their goal was ot make money they would have mentioned it a bit more then for 3 seconds as a word on the screen and not even discuss it

 

[PGTips]

If their goal wasn't to mislead at the very least, they'd give the names and jobs of the people talking to the camera when they first appear on the screen. That's how every other documentary does it (including The Elegant Universe).

It's not till you've been watching for more thn 90 minutes you find out the people who are talking to you about quantum mechanics are anaethesiologists! Why are you asking a doctor to explain quantum mechanics? Or a professor of theology?

Why did they edit the one person who DID do quantum mechanics as a profession so much that what he comes across as saying was the opposite from what he thinks.

The whole thing stinks of a scam. They are being dishonest, both on a scientific level and a moral level by lying or twisting people's words. I'm in no doubt some people have watched that then gone and searched for more info on the people who made it or Ramtha and ended up paying money to them for something.

Yes, you can watch it on Google video or Youtube, but most people will not, they'll buy the DVD (which is available on places like Amazon for $15~25) so they are making money from it in that respect.

 

[TheGreeenGlob]

We got very off topic and it has become a power struggle that doesn't even pertain to the original purpose of the thread.


This is what the thread was supposed to be about as i have stated 5 times now.

And like I said I was creating this thread to discuss the amazing power of thought. There are so many things that people can do because they believe they can, which does not fit with a traditionally scientific view of “reality”. How can you explain how some martial artists can break bricks with their hands? Doctors will tell you they should break their hands on the bricks. Or how some martial artists can be stabbed with swords and instead of their skin being pierced, the sword bends. How about monks who can sit on top on a cold mountain and have a wet blanket put over their shoulders and just by using the power of thought, can dry the blanket. How about people who beat diseases that doctors say should absolutely 100% kill them and yet they believe so much that they can get better that they do. Or how about the power of placebo? People are given placebos for various reason and told they will feel something and just because they think they will, they do. How are these things possible?

^^^^^What are everyone's views on this?^^^^^



How powerful does everyone think that thought truly is? Can thought really change anything that is going to happen in the future? And if you don't think thought can influence "reality" in any way, then how can people do these amazing things?

 

[qwedsa]

^why should i assume any of those things occur? have you seen these things happen?

what if i told you my dog talked because i believed he could. would you believe me? see the problem?

about the placebo effect, there's nothing mysterious about it. take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#How_the_placebo_effect_works

by the way, winamp is playing a song at 128 kbps, but apparently my brain can only process 0.244 kbps... there's 524 times more information per second in a song than in my brain!? where'd you get those numbers?

 

[elemenohpee]

greenglob: we got "off topic" because the premise with which you based this thread off of is demonstratively wrong.

 

[go-ee]

How can you explain how some martial artists can break bricks with their hands? Doctors will tell you they should break their hands on the bricks.

I have seen countless funniest home videos (very credible source, up there with WTBDWK) where they don't break the brick, but rather their hands. The martial artists have the correct technique, strength and training to do this.

Or how some martial artists can be stabbed with swords and instead of their skin being pierced, the sword bends.

I highly doubt this. If I were to go stab some karate expert with a sword, I suspect it would cut their skin.

How about people who beat diseases that doctors say should absolutely 100% kill them and yet they believe so much that they can get better that they do.

Having a positive mindset can have huge positive influences on your life. Indeed, there is plenty of correlational research showing positive thinking has beneficial effects on your physical health. However, there are so many variables at play can you really just attribute to the power of thought? How about accounting for the thousands of other things going on in a person's life? For every person that beats the odds and recovers from a serious illness there are countless others that die, with the same positive mindset as those who survived.

Or how about the power of placebo? People are given placebos for various reason and told they will feel something and just because they think they will, they do.

As stated by qwedsa, the placebo effect is not mysterious nor is it that powerful. There are many medications out there which barely work, yet are more effective than placebo. Indeed, that is the very nature of how they conduct experiments to test medications.

I am not trying to discredit the power of thought. Thinking positive is good for anyone, just don't fool yourself into thinking that your thoughts can change the physical world. Right now I'm trying to open your bedroom door to give you a bit of a scare. Let me know if it works.

 

[ninjadanslarbretabar]

the placebo effect is not mysterious nor is it that powerful.

your joking right !
you never heard of god ?
(i mean god is a placebo right)

 

[AcidRain]

How about monks who can sit on top on a cold mountain and have a wet blanket put over their shoulders and just by using the power of thought, can dry the blanket.

It's very dry on top of mountains because all the water freezes out of the air. It's also very windy. Perfect conditions for drying a blanket really.

 

[go-ee]

your joking right !
you never heard of god ?
(i mean god is a placebo right)

Yeah scientists often give half the participants God and the other participants the drug they are trying to assess when conducting double blind experiments.

 

[PGTips]

Positive mindsets can have a big effect. I've seen friends of my parents age 10 years in a few months when their parents become very ill with cancer or have a stroke. The stress of it all makes people go grey suddenly or become much more wrinkled.

Constant stress means a constant flow of less than good chemicals in your body. Your blood pressure is up all the time which causes problems for your heart. Your brain is constantly out of wack on the neurochemical side of things. You get sleep deprivation. All those things are proven to be bad for your health over long periods of time.

Conversely, if you're happy, you don't have those things much and your health doesn't deteriorate. It's hardly unexpected. If you're sleeping comfortably and not constantly full of adrenaline, your body is more healthy.

The Green Blob, if you'd wanted to talk about this stuff, you could have just asked the question you quoted after my last post, instead of bringing in quantum mechanics and WTBDWK which, as elemenohpee said, is demonstrably bullshit when connected to this stuff.

 

[TheGreeenGlob]

I am not trying to discredit the power of thought. Thinking positive is good for anyone, just don't fool yourself into thinking that your thoughts can change the physical world. Right now I'm trying to open your bedroom door to give you a bit of a scare. Let me know if it works.

If your thoughts cannot change the physical world please explain to me the following:

How does meditation physically make your brain grow?

How can monks raise their body temputers a large amount during meditation?

How does meditation alter brain structure?

If it is not meditation(thought) doing this then what is it? Here are some articles that will prove i am not pulling this out of no where

Monks:
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.09/01-imagery.html

Meditation Alters Brain Structure:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/monksmed.html

Meditation makes brain grow:
http://www.physorg.com/news10312.html

It's very dry on top of mountains because all the water freezes out of the air. It's also very windy. Perfect conditions for drying a blanket really.

Here is the article where the monks dried wet cloths and this one is in a room monitored by scientists In a 40 degree room with no wind and not good conditions for drying a blanket: please explain how this happened.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

It seems the monks thoughts alone can effect "physical reality"

There is many more studies done on monks also

 

[qwedsa]

^every one of those cases is related to the body in some way. the brain has a measure of control over the body (obviously). your mind has a measure of control of your brain and thus body (obviously). i don't see what's so special about it

It seems the monks thoughts alone can effect "physical reality"

no, there are in-between causal effects

 

[go-ee]

If your thoughts cannot change the physical world please explain to me the following:

How does meditation physically make your brain grow?

How can monks raise their body temputers a large amount during meditation?

How does meditation alter brain structure?

If it is not meditation(thought) doing this then what is it? Here are some articles that will prove i am not pulling this out of no where

Monks:
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2...1-imagery.html

Meditation Alters Brain Structure:
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma8/monksmed.html

Meditation makes brain grow:
http://www.physorg.com/news10312.html

Cognitions (thoughts) are the result of your own brain. I never said your behaviour or cognitions could not alter the structure of your brain. They most certainly do. However, those links you posted are garbage and pure sensationalism. Here are some quotes directly from the articles:

We can't rule out the possibility that there was a pre-existing difference in brain function between monks and novices, says Prof. Davidson

and

But further research needs to be done using a larger number of people and testing them multiple times. We also need to examine their brains both before and after learning to meditate. Our group is currently planning to do this. Eventually, such research should reveal more about the function of the thickening; that is, how it affects emotions and knowing in terms of both awareness and judgment.