Putting yourself on TRT?

I've had issues retaining muscle my whole life (I've been active/athletic my whole life). After around 16 months of HARD WORK I put on 30 pounds of mostly muscle (lots in the legs from squatting/dling) but lost ~15 of it real quick when I switched my focus back onto rock climbing. I'm 25 now so obviously should still have a lot of nat testosterone.

If I'm not eating above maintenance my sex drive nose-dives.
 
samadhi_smiles said:
I've had issues retaining muscle my whole life (I've been active/athletic my whole life). After around 16 months of HARD WORK I put on 30 pounds of mostly muscle (lots in the legs from squatting/dling) but lost ~15 of it real quick when I switched my focus back onto rock climbing. I'm 25 now so obviously should still have a lot of nat testosterone.

If I'm not eating above maintenance my sex drive nose-dives.
Click to expand...

Samadhi, you know I'll give it to you straight. If you have health insurance or can afford to pay out of pocket;

Get off everything! EVERYTHING! Of course, as if you were ending a cycle or regimen normally (tapering, PCT, whatever).

Eat normal, lift normal, take your protein & creatine (if you do) for a minimum of 3 months.

Then make an appointment with your GP/PCP. Give honest complaints of your symptoms, as you've done here.

If your doc doesn't pick up on it, specifically ask for blood work to be done;

LH
FSH
Testosterone, Serum
Testosterone, Free
PSA
IGF-1
TSH
DHEA
Prolactin

Lipids (if you care to know)
CBC w/ diff
CMP

Know where you're at, right now, at 25. Wish I would have at 25...might not be in the position I am now.

Then decide how to proceed from then on. Maybe you'll be diagnosed needing TRT, maybe you won't. Either way the next 25 years will be better than the last, hormone wise.
 
Whatchamacallit said:
Sustanon is a very poor choice for TRT. Too many esters and his levels would not be constant even with consistency in dosing.

Enanthate & Cypionate are the best choices, obviously you are correct here.

However I will disagree with the frequency of dosage. Both from personal experience, professional experience (worked for an HRT doc for 6 months as a PA) and from literature I've recently reviewed, the half-life is approximately 8 days.

Injecting every 14 days would cause a rollercoaster effect. I saw and heard patients woes of only receiving their in-office injections every 14 days. The doctor would advise them to "fix it" by coming in every week for a shot, but it was a convenience thing for them to come every 14 days.

Samadhi, since your wanting to build muscle as well as support your natural levels, I would recommend testosteone enanthate/cypionate q 5 days. If you're off cycle and taking a break but still want to supplement, q 7 days.
Click to expand...

Going by what the original poster has said, they were looking only for a TRT dosage. I didn't read anything about wanting to gaining muscle in the original post, which would not be considered as TRT.

Correct in bodybuilding circles we would shoot Enanthate and Cypionate twice weekly, once a week at the latest.

But for TRT this would be unreasonable.

Many doctors also recommend subq shots instead of intramuscular
Again this would be unreasonable to use for our bodybuilding needs.
 
^ Sorry Junyur but you are incorrect, almost uneducated in the matter of TRT.

I have worked as an Assistant for an HRT doctor that treated both men and women with hormone deficiencies. And I am also under the care of a doctor specializing in HRT, specifically TRT in men, some competitive bodybuilders.

These claims you make are completely false and not the current practice of physicians compassionate enough to treat 'off label' male and female andropause, virtually risking their licenses.

I had a highly detailed explanation written but not even worth the time.

Sorry.
 
I just had my levels checked. Total test was 888 and free test was 169.5.
Click to expand...

An 888 ng/dl serum with 5 1/4% unbound is quite high, I had similar levels after I quit opiates (a high 900's serum but with 4.8-9% or so unbound, so very similar). I am not sure if it is still this elevated, hopefully it is...
 
negrogesic said:
An 888 ng/dl serum with 5 1/4% unbound is quite high, I had similar levels after I quit opiates (a high 900's serum but with 4.8-9% or so unbound, so very similar). I am not sure if it is still this elevated, hopefully it is...
Click to expand...

how'd you feel at these levels? personally I feel damn near invincible. =D :D
 
Aanallein, I believe you're being overly emphatic about the possible negative consequences of long-term testosterone use. While it's certainly possible to produce sterility, there are certainly examples of bodybuilders on long term (ie. years) of testosterone use that have fathered children, even while still on-cycle. I also don't believe that complete shutdown (essentially no more endogenous testosterone production and little or no sperm production) is normally an irreversible effect; many of the more aggressive steroid users report fairly severe atrophy, yet recovering with proper PCT.

The record of restoring fertility to hypogonadal men in medical settings seems to be quite good (using a mixture of SERMs and long term, high dosage hCG.) My suspicion is that at least in most cases normal or near-normal testicle function can be restored with proper treatment (although it may be a somewhat lengthy process.)

So, I think it's going too far to say that long term steroid use WILL cause permanent sterility or hypogonadism; I haven't seen any evidence to support that, and some good evidence that at least in many cases even heavy, long term atrophy is reversible. Still, it's something to think about. You are screwing with a pretty important system in a pretty heavy-handed way. I highly recommend hCG usage throughout any significant cycle. It's a cheap and effective way to keep your balls from going on vacation in the first place.
 
Yes, it appeared to be some sort of rebound, though these could have simply been my pre-opioid test levels (although I have doubts about this). I had definitely been experiencing some suppression of testosterone while on opioids, especially when one considers the doses I was on.

As the levels were peaking, there was a very significant increase in sex drive, some strange acne on my back, and I noticed my facial hair was re-growing relatively shortly after shaving (faster than it usually does). The bit of fat around my waist dropped off rather quickly, and I was able to put on some lean weight quite fast. I am assuming these levels have either gone down somewhat, or I am used to the feeling. The facial hair is still growing quite fast, as I never used to have to shave 2x a day (I can't stand mustaches, a beard is ok). I still sometimes feel an urge to fight people for no real reason, but I have always suffered from this somewhat.

I am 24, and started abusing opioids at around 19.
 
TheDEA.org said:
Aanallein, I believe you're being overly emphatic about the possible negative consequences of long-term testosterone use. While it's certainly possible to produce sterility, there are certainly examples of bodybuilders on long term (ie. years) of testosterone use that have fathered children, even while still on-cycle. I also don't believe that complete shutdown (essentially no more endogenous testosterone production and little or no sperm production) is normally an irreversible effect; many of the more aggressive steroid users report fairly severe atrophy, yet recovering with proper PCT.

The record of restoring fertility to hypogonadal men in medical settings seems to be quite good (using a mixture of SERMs and long term, high dosage hCG.) My suspicion is that at least in most cases normal or near-normal testicle function can be restored with proper treatment (although it may be a somewhat lengthy process.)

So, I think it's going too far to say that long term steroid use WILL cause permanent sterility or hypogonadism; I haven't seen any evidence to support that, and some good evidence that at least in many cases even heavy, long term atrophy is reversible. Still, it's something to think about. You are screwing with a pretty important system in a pretty heavy-handed way. I highly recommend hCG usage throughout any significant cycle. It's a cheap and effective way to keep your balls from going on vacation in the first place.
Click to expand...

Definitely agree with everything you said but how much would it be worth it for the average person to go through all of this? I think its just not worth it personally given the alternatives (cycling on/off and using proper PCT between cycles to limit atrophy and downregulation).
 
Whatchamacallit said:
^ Sorry Junyur but you are incorrect, almost uneducated in the matter of TRT.

I have worked as an Assistant for an HRT doctor that treated both men and women with hormone deficiencies. And I am also under the care of a doctor specializing in HRT, specifically TRT in men, some competitive bodybuilders.

These claims you make are completely false and not the current practice of physicians compassionate enough to treat 'off label' male and female andropause, virtually risking their licenses.

I had a highly detailed explanation written but not even worth the time.

Sorry.
Click to expand...

In which way am I incorrect? I've stated the TRT doses for the average aging male. Not competitive body builders.
Testosterone in the average male is 70-100mg per week.

The main goal when a doctor prescribes TRT to an aging male is to treat low sex drive, low energy levels ect and are not the same goals we have in the gym.
 
Whatchamacallit said:
Samadhi, you know I'll give it to you straight. If you have health insurance or can afford to pay out of pocket;

Get off everything! EVERYTHING! Of course, as if you were ending a cycle or regimen normally (tapering, PCT, whatever).

Eat normal, lift normal, take your protein & creatine (if you do) for a minimum of 3 months.

Then make an appointment with your GP/PCP. Give honest complaints of your symptoms, as you've done here.

If your doc doesn't pick up on it, specifically ask for blood work to be done;

LH
FSH
Testosterone, Serum
Testosterone, Free
PSA
IGF-1
TSH
DHEA
Prolactin

Lipids (if you care to know)
CBC w/ diff
CMP

Know where you're at, right now, at 25. Wish I would have at 25...might not be in the position I am now.

Then decide how to proceed from then on. Maybe you'll be diagnosed needing TRT, maybe you won't. Either way the next 25 years will be better than the last, hormone wise.
Click to expand...


What is a round-about figure for what you should expect to pay for all these tests? I would kind of like to have it done just to see where I'm at... but I don't want to start setting up appointments if its ridiculously expensive w/o insurance or anything.
 
without insurance i duno.. could be expensive. i don't even have a copay so for me its free so i take advantage and get them all checked every couple months =)
 
Junyur said:
In which way am I incorrect? I've stated the TRT doses for the average aging male. Not competitive body builders.
Testosterone in the average male is 70-100mg per week.

The main goal when a doctor prescribes TRT to an aging male is to treat low sex drive, low energy levels ect and are not the same goals we have in the gym.
Click to expand...

Consider me for the last 4-5 months someone who was exhibiting symptoms of andropause. Not a bodybuilder looking for a legal way to get testosterone.

I am not seeing some quack HRT clinic where cash = script for whatever you want.

I legitimately stopped EVERYTHING for 3 months and went to my doc (Family Practice, DO) for complete physical including symptoms of hypogonadism.

Sure enough, I have a microadenoma on the underside of my pituitary gland, thus supporting the labs results taken, showing test, serum low & LH & FSH low-normal.

I was placed on the lowest therapeutic dose of AndroGel, 5g per day.

Quite quoting 'bodybuilder' dosages and incorrect information about TRT in a thread where someone is asking SPECIFICALLY about TRT not bodybuilder dosage.

The OP was quite specific in his question and, from what I understand, quite knowledgeable in 'bodybuilding'.

fizzacyst said:
What is a round-about figure for what you should expect to pay for all these tests? I would kind of like to have it done just to see where I'm at... but I don't want to start setting up appointments if its ridiculously expensive w/o insurance or anything.
Click to expand...

$1800 was lab tests, $270 for doctor appointments, $911 for MRI...3 grand fizz.

The AndroGel wants to sell their product so they are offering first month free and $20 rebate for the first sis months off your script. $280 per month @ 5g per month, minus $20 of course.
 
Quite quoting 'bodybuilder' dosages and incorrect information about TRT in a thread where someone is asking SPECIFICALLY about TRT not bodybuilder dosage.

The OP was quite specific in his question and, from what I understand, quite knowledgeable in 'bodybuilding'.
Click to expand...

Testosterone in the average male is 70-100mg per week.
Click to expand...

I need a little clarficiation. I thought that average male test production was closer to 125mg-250mg per week. Hence why docs give single 250mgs doses every 1-2 weeks. For larger (200lbs+) males I imagine this is closer to 250mgs per week.

Does anyone have any SOLID info on this or is this just anecdotal - ie reprive from low test symptoms.

Obviously for males that exercise having a higher than necesary ammount is beneficial. They are more likely to utilise the extra. I imagine that for the general population too there is little drawback to "slightly" excessive levels. What is the MINIMUM level of TRT?
 
I know these sources of the numbers are not the most 'scientific' but all three sites report the same;

http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/testost/story.htm

http://www.stevenellis.com/steven_ellis_the_complete/all_about_supplements_and_steroids/index.html

http://www.muscleenhancers.com/steroids/roids4.htm

the male gonads (testes) produce between 4 and 10 mg of testosterone per day or on average 7mg per day.
Click to expand...

So between 28 & 70mg per week and 49mg average.

It has been 10 days I have been on 50mg/day or 350mg/week transdermal testosterone. This is the minimal dosage my doctor could have prescribed. Rightly so, as I was slightly below normal testosterone, serum, LH & FSH.

I have marked improvement in overall sense of well being, gained back some general motivation, sex drive has increase, anxiety has been reduced, sleep has improved, GERD symptoms have all but gone. Full benefits of transdermal TRT is noted to take place at about 30 days.

According to my AndroGel insert;

Excretion:About 90% of a dose of testosterone given intramuscularly (ie transdermal or injection) is excreted in the urine as glucuronic and sulfuric acid conjugates of testosterone and its metabolites; about 6% of a dose is excreted in the feces, mostly in the unconjugated form. Inactivation occurs primarily in the liver.
Click to expand...

Considering this I am getting 2mg per day or 17mg per week of exogenous testosterone. Normal being "the male gonads (testes) produce between 4 and 10 mg of testosterone per day", 2mg per day is not much of a considerable dose.
 
Sorry fellas but since that last post and this fucking thread, along with others, I'm fed up with the bullshit being spread by members who can only write like they are educated in the subject matter rather actually being educated.

p-mo, neg, aan, fuk...feel free to pm me as I'll be checking my pm regularly.

But I won't be visiting the forum for a while. Simply fed up and have better shit to do than to constantly correct bullshit spread by ignorant motherfuckers.

Best of luck to you that can and do, almost regularly.
 
aanallein said:
its not uneducated opinion. prohormones ARE crap.

1. more side effects
2. less anabolic effects
3. virtually no studies done unlike real steroids

if you're gonna fuck with your endocrine system do some real roids not some methylated bullshit that will destroy your liver and give you bitchtits.

i've increased my testosterone levels 30% in 2 months. you know how? eating a fuckton of calories and lifting like an animal. that's all i've been doing and it works.
Click to expand...

I never mentioned anything about pro-hormones. The products I mentioned do not contain any pro-hormones. Your pro-hormone response was right out of the blue. It had nothing to do with anything I was talking about. The reference was to being uneducated about the specific products I mentioned since you seemed to imply that they were pro-hormone products. If you just pulled the pro-hormone comment out of you azz for no reason at all just to say it and not in commenting about the products I was talking about then I mis-understood your reply.
 
p-mo said:
meh it looks like a good list of so-so ingredients. If I was in a similar situation then I guess thats the kind of product I'd go for. And its not a prohormone as much as a herbal aid. I certainly wouldnt be paying very much for it - I hope its less than $1 a day! Let us know if you get bloodwork done afterwards- I'd be interested to see if there is a noticable difference in serum test levels.
Click to expand...

My bottle was 40 bucks for 120 tabs. you can dose at 4 to 6 tabs a day. I'm doing 4 a day. 2 early morning, 2 early afternoon. About $1.33 a day, if it helps it's golden, if it does not then not such a great loss. I'm gonna do it for 30 days and then go back to the lab and get the tests done. Last lab was a week before I started. I will post the results I get good or bad.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top