Psychopaths on psychedelics

[jaurk]

Check the Psychedelic Index, it's somewhere at the top. But since it's there and not (yet) put in the guidelines I don't think you will see anyone getting warned for it any time soon. But they will be removed, especially of peoples own clips, videos that do not add anything or display of particularly inappropriate behavior - you know... things that we don't want to promote to minors etc.

That makes a lot of sense to me, wont do it again.

 

[foolsgold]

forget what i just put bad taste in jokes

 

[LogicSoDeveloped]

Read up on Gordon Todd Skinner. He was a user of psychedelics but he did some outrageous stuff.

 

[foolsgold]

the guys he grassed up jesus the wanker

 

[spaceyourbass]

I wonder if psychedelic use would make people with APD at risk of committing violent acts. Like if they are tripping so hard that they forget about/care even less about the consequences of their actions...I guess if someone had APD and a history of violent behavior then I definitely wouldn't reccommend that they trip. It's a shame we aren't allowed to study the effects of certain drugs despite their legal status. Who knows, psychs could reverse the effects of ABD. I would suggest that someone do a case study on themselves, but the condition is very rare to begin with.

 

[SeniorShaggy]

very interesting subject.
now im not 100% but im pretty sure Charles Manson is considered a phycopath, and he used plenty of LSD.
actually i think he was under the influence of it and listening to 'Helter Skelter' when he decided to start killing people. but i wouldnt quote me on that

 

[Survived Abortion]

It's strange, I was asking myself the very same question about a day before this thread was created. I believe that there is a very good possibility that, under the right circumstances and with a lot of exposure, you could nurture empathy back in to a so-called "psychopath".

 

[No. 13 Baby]

very interesting subject.
now im not 100% but im pretty sure Charles Manson is considered a psychopath, and he used plenty of LSD.

He's a good one to bring up. I believe he was a psychopath as well and definitely did psychedelics.

 

[acidclouds]

We were discussing Manson in the 'Psychedelic Society' thread a few days ago. Some people in that thread had a very Utopian view of psychedelics but myself and others argued that psychedelics, like anything else, can be used for both 'good' and 'evil'.

Manson is an extreme example of the way they can be used for evil

 

[Timland]

We were discussing Manson in the 'Psychedelic Society' thread a few days ago. Some people in that thread had a very Utopian view of psychedelics but myself and others argued that psychedelics, like anything else, can be used for both 'good' and 'evil'.

Manson is an extreme example of the way they can be used for evil

Indeed, psychedelics are mostly introspective, IME. It helps those who have a productive and positive inner self that is trapped and it exacerbates conditions for those who are using it to "get fucked up" or some other poor uninformed attitude which Manson no doubt had. I had a very vain and casual attitude when I first used a hallucinogen and I ended up in a bad way during that trip because of it. They must be respected for what they are.

Semi-related note. I think those Tate murders are what ultimately killed the hippie movement, and turned many hippies into cranky social-conservatives.

----

Also, I now realize that there are many male APDs who do not commit violence. I watch a lot of Most Evil so I was a bit too inclined to generalize there. I once knew someone who exhibited the traits of APD and was briefly a victim of his manipulation and toying (a former lover eventually informed me that he was a diagnosed APD, using the word sociopath).

APD is a fascinating topic for me because the psychiatric industry has no clue on the exact root cause or how to treat it. I don't look down on APD sufferers FYI, as they are born with it and you can't fault someone for what they were born with -- unless they commit violence or some other crime that directly harms others like armed robbery but even then its not the right outlook, more like remove the violent ones from society until a definitive cure comes along to make them appropriate for society.

 

[acidclouds]

Semi-related note. I think those Tate murders are what ultimately killed the hippie movement, and turned many hippies into cranky social-conservatives.

People have lots of supposed 'killers' of the 60s, the two most obvious ones that I can think of are the Manson murders and the Altamont Speedway Free Festival. Personally I think it was the fact that the hippy scene in haight-ashbury and elsewhere got invaded by tens of thousands of people after the 1967 'summer of love'. Any movement and/or place that gets that many people (especially young lost directionless people looking for meaning) is going to become a hell hole very quickly.

In late 1967, journalist Leonard Wolf observed:

The new look of the Haight may be encapsulated in one word: tougher. The kids are tougher, the kicks are tougher, and the problems are tougher… Young people come and go, but what now brings them into the Haight is not so much an intuition of a better world to come as, rather, a personal unwillingness or incapacity to deal with the world they have left… LSD, which was the key to the hippie experience, is being replaced in popularity by Methedrine, thereby signalling a shift from a vision- to a kick-seeking community.

Within months, the Haight was unrecognisable as its original countercultural inhabitants escaped en masse. Nancy Getz reflected angrily on the destructive media-driven invasion: ‘The Haight was our town. It was sunshine and flowers and love. And the media got hold of it and ate us and fed us back to ourselves.’

APD is a fascinating topic for me because the psychiatric industry has no clue on the exact root cause or how to treat it. I don't look down on APD sufferers FYI, as they are born with it and you can't fault someone for what they were born with -- unless they commit violence or some other crime that directly harms others like armed robbery but even then its not the right outlook, more like remove the violent ones from society until a definitive cure comes along to make them appropriate for society.

Yes to paraphrase Einstein (I think it was him) I do not blame the murderer for what he has done but nor do I invite him to dinner. Its not psychopaths fault that they are the way they are but at the same time I dont want to have anything to do with them as they are destructive people

 

[miliefisathand]

Indeed, psychedelics are mostly introspective, IME. It helps those who have a productive and positive inner self that is trapped and it exacerbates conditions for those who are using it to "get fucked up" or some other poor uninformed attitude which Manson no doubt had. I had a very vain and casual attitude when I first used a hallucinogen and I ended up in a bad way during that trip because of it. They must be respected for what they are.

Semi-related note. I think those Tate murders are what ultimately killed the hippie movement, and turned many hippies into cranky social-conservatives.

----

Also, I now realize that there are many male APDs who do not commit violence. I watch a lot of Most Evil so I was a bit too inclined to generalize there. I once knew someone who exhibited the traits of APD and was briefly a victim of his manipulation and toying (a former lover eventually informed me that he was a diagnosed APD, using the word sociopath).

APD is a fascinating topic for me because the psychiatric industry has no clue on the exact root cause or how to treat it. I don't look down on APD sufferers FYI, as they are born with it and you can't fault someone for what they were born with -- unless they commit violence or some other crime that directly harms others like armed robbery but even then its not the right outlook, more like remove the violent ones from society until a definitive cure comes along to make them appropriate for society.

so you are saying that evil is uninformed?
because if you are there are a lot of people who would agree with you. my dad says that evil genius is an oxymoron and that if a smart person was really intelligent his logical conclusion would be good.

i myself am not so sure. psychedelics are such powerful tools that can be used for so many purposes and causes. you can really twist someone's soul to bits while tripping or to someone else who is tripping.


Ive noticed that there is a prevalence of thought amongst the hippie community that suggest that psychedelic drugs are for expanding ones mind in the direction and to experience/give love. Ive found through many experiments that this isn't always the case.
I notice that there are dark energies and powers that can be experienced and, more importantly, harnessed to the user's benefit. usually this fucks them up in the form of a bad trip if they are inexperienced with harnessing negative energy.
But during some of my trips I've actually been able to feel people's souls directly and get vague notions of their intentions and have succeeded in creating spiritual devotion/love from my companions who were tripping with me.
as you probably have already known the possibilities of mind games and manipulation phenomenon become even more prevalent and downright bizarre in the soul territory.


my hunches point that unlike modern literature suggests, sociopath's have a soul. we just have different variations as human beings. and without sounding too out there i think that within select humans there are devas and demons; and all types in between.

there are times when I experience truly angry, complex yet downright diabolical concepts while on 2ce, or shrooms

examples would include;

there was an married woman whom i had gone to the river to trip with.
we sat down near the water in the woods and talked. every time I said something stupid or innocent the face on the log would snicker and grow angry and the air grew putrid. the face scared me. the grass around me would seem to die.
but at every moment in which I said something smooth, sexy or put my hand on her, the face would smile, the air was lighter and the river sparkled. i felt blessed.
(shrooms)


there was a time after skrillex concert that we all chilled at my friends apartment. I stepped outside to smoke a cigarette. I coulda sworn I heard voices inside the house. i tired hard to listen and i heard clearly that everyone was talking shit about me. one girl was like< "I hate your friend, he's so creepy" another dude said, "ya, we should have dropped him off hours ago" I barged inside only to discover that no one said a word and the other guy was asleep.

i go inside and I start talking to the girl, she is flirting back with me and I know her thoughts. I get her to make out with me and she gave me head. I KNOW HER THOUGHTS. i could tell her to go to the bathroom or sit down by mere suggestions or by feeling her pressure points. I momentarily go into a mental calculation in which I figure out a series of interactions I could make with her that could cause her to commit suicide via gunshot to the head. I even intuitively knew that she kept a gun in her closet without knowing for sure. i went back and checked her closet and low and behold in was there.

(2ce)


sometimes on psychedelics I feel more evolved but more prone to fuck shit up. not in a brutal violent way. but in a mind game sense.

don't get me wrong, ive also felt astounding moments of love and brotherhood that went all the way into the soul level. i could go on about the very real lovey side of psychedelia but there is more than enough literature on that sort of thing.

on a separate note; this media driven bullshit that passes for love and drives all empaths into a frenzy is nothing more than limerence. they have pigeon holed people who are above limerence as evil and manipulative and give them all types of dehumanizing labels.

a christian philosopher buddy of mine even says that the conscience(which is highly temporal) is separate and distinct for the "holy ghost";which is supposed to be along side the soul as the real seat of our conscious. so even this "conscience" that people put so much value on is just a farce; a byproduct of the ego. limerence and conscience need to be shattered before true and pure conscious can experience itself. in some ways, the "sociopath" (god i hate that word) is closer to the "love experience" than an empath might. that is what i believe.

my fellow psychonauts, remember that many of us have turned to psychedelia because the institution of psychiatry fails to stimulate, explain and properly heal. im not saying its completely without merit ( a good therapist is pretty amazing in my opinion) But, DSM labels are pretty much better off taken with a grain of salt.

Everyone experiences anxiety to some degree, even psychopaths. Some violent outbursts are brought on by (social anxiety, and other types of) anxiety. The only way some serial killers could get rid of the anxiety was to kill, just as someone with ocd has to touch the doorknob 14 times before turning it to avoid anxiety. Most psychopaths are antisocial, to avoid anxious situations.

sorry but you are wrong. sociopaths do not experience anxiety. fearlessness is one of the the defining characteristics of sociopathy. social anxiety? sorry, nice try though

 

[Bone14]

I remember seeing a documentery of a psychopath who was the leader in a cult, he used LSD for exploiting and manipulating his cult members.

 

[gymstud]

I used to be but im ok now psyches do make me think "why I have been so senslessly violent"
I guess it depends whether a problem is psychological or neurological

 

[miliefisathand]

to quote a friend,
"psychedelics make us in touch our animal side."
sometimes I'm a snake (charles m.)
sometimes I'm a bird (free w00t)
sometimes I'm a scared chiwawa (bad trip man)
sometimes I'm a sloth (too tired man)
sometimes I'm a kitten (purrrr)
sometimes I'm a carebear (love love love plurrrr)

@Bone14, if you could link that documentary it would be most appreciated.

 

[DaveTripper]

there was a time after skrillex concert that we all chilled at my friends apartment. I stepped outside to smoke a cigarette. I coulda sworn I heard voices inside the house. i tired hard to listen and i heard clearly that everyone was talking shit about me. one girl was like< "I hate your friend, he's so creepy" another dude said, "ya, we should have dropped him off hours ago" I barged inside only to discover that no one said a word and the other guy was asleep.

i go inside and I start talking to the girl, she is flirting back with me and I know her thoughts. I get her to make out with me and she gave me head. I KNOW HER THOUGHTS. i could tell her to go to the bathroom or sit down by mere suggestions or by feeling her pressure points. I momentarily go into a mental calculation in which I figure out a series of interactions I could make with her that could cause her to commit suicide via gunshot to the head. I even intuitively knew that she kept a gun in her closet without knowing for sure. i went back and checked her closet and low and behold in was there.

(2ce)

on a separate note; this media driven bullshit that passes for love and drives all empaths into a frenzy is nothing more than limerence. they have pigeon holed people who are above limerence as evil and manipulative and give them all types of dehumanizing labels.

a christian philosopher buddy of mine even says that the conscience(which is highly temporal) is separate and distinct for the "holy ghost";which is supposed to be along side the soul as the real seat of our conscious. so even this "conscience" that people put so much value on is just a farce; a byproduct of the ego. limerence and conscience need to be shattered before true and pure conscious can experience itself. in some ways, the "sociopath" (god i hate that word) is closer to the "love experience" than an empath might. that is what i believe.

my fellow psychonauts, remember that many of us have turned to psychedelia because the institution of psychiatry fails to stimulate, explain and properly heal. im not saying its completely without merit ( a good therapist is pretty amazing in my opinion) But, DSM labels are pretty much better off taken with a grain of salt.



sorry but you are wrong. sociopaths do not experience anxiety. fearlessness is one of the the defining characteristics of sociopathy. social anxiety? sorry, nice try though

A lot of the stuff you said in your last post (including some that I cut out because I wanted to make it shorter) seems like a bunch of made up BS. I get that this is what YOU believe and you're not saying it's fact, and while on psychedelics you can trick yourself into believing anything, but controlling people through pressure points? Calculating a plan that would cause her to shoot herself in the head? Just sounds like psychedelic-induced insanity that hopefully faded after the trip subsided. And how on Earth is a "sociopath" closer to the "love experience" than normal people? Seems like a bunch of BS. I'm not trying to rag on you and I respect your beliefs, I just don't think they hold any grounds. I would be intrigued to hear examples/or reasons for your statement that sociopaths are closer to love than non-sociopaths.

 

[miliefisathand]

as far as the event recall, there was much in the form of evidence. like the gun in her closet. also further interviews with her friends revealed she was suicidal. i realize all this in anecdotal and what im about to say may make me sound even crazier to you.
i am a very spiritual person and before, during and after many psychedelic experiences i have witnessed real magic. im not going to try to make myself sound less insane but those of you who can relate wont think that. Dave i thank that you were respectful in your disagreement. for the record i was stating this as fact but lets agree to disagree. there are "real" events that go on in the spirit level that are extremely hard to prove especially through web forum.

at any rate, why i believe sociopaths are closer to the love experience is tied closely to my subscription of the limerence theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

i think this is an example of what many in our society assume to be love but its my belief that its not.

however, i never said that all sociopaths reach that enlightened state of universal love. but the triggers and keys to it, I believe, are more pronounced in such individuals. but dualisticaly i find that the opposite capability of darkness is also there.

another article that may or may not be fruitful to describing my thoughts:

http://www.sociopathworld.com/2010/11/sociopathic-buddhism-tautology-or.html

it certainly is a fun read either way.

 

[muvolution]

Subscribed.

Let me just say that having been in close proximity to a person who is a sociopath... whatever youu want to call it, doing drugs (not psychs) with him, talking with him, would make me never, ever want to trip with a sociopath.

Furthermore, a trip would certainly not heal them, and I think could bring out more violent traits if they are not already.


As far as the tripping girl with the gun in the closet, I think you have constructed a whole mythos to fit events which seem meaningful, but are really just coincidences. We can find meaning in anything if we look hard enough. I would encourage you to seperate the facts from the conclusions here, and then to look at those facts to see what you learned afterwards and are using to post-rationalize this. Not criticising you, just urging you to deconstruct the events to find out what happened.

I will say that psychadelic drugs can and do have a dark side, and while I have never had a bad trip per se, there are trips where you must be comfortable exploring the darker side of life if it goes there. I think resisting this could certainly cause a bad trip, as could embracing it too much. Point being, in times like that, I am sure some minds would wander all the way to murder, etc... as we have seen above. This could only be extremely unhealthy in a person with apd, so in conclusion, I think it is safe to recommend that anyone with apd not attempt to self-medicate with hallucinogens, but continue to work on their issues with their mental health professional. If you choose to pursue psychadelics as therapy, it should be in a supervised setting with informed sitters.

 

[miliefisathand]

someone with APD wouldnt respond well to therapy. most therapy is undergone as a means to alleviate suffering or existential angst. there's nothing remotely distressing about having APD, the only distress comes from those around them.
like psychedelics, psychotherapy would simply give them more tools to manipulate.

but like anything else, its the choices we make that define us more than our personality or ego contents. i don't think of sociopathy as a disorder, but rather, an instance of neurodiversity.
anyways thats what i believe.

not everyone whos APD is violent like in the movies. i knew a mcdonald's general manager who is, he just got a kick out of fucking with people. but i cant ever see him killing someone, although he most certainly wouldnt feel bad for doing it.

there are a lot worse fates then death, ask anyone who's had a horrible trip.

i often do, as you say, construct mythos. im naturally a very superstitious person. its not always the case, but most of the time ill consider a supernatural explanation rather than a natural one.

 

[88brenno]

There was this guy at a doof recently and my mate sold him some LSD, something was wrong with him not sure what cause I never saw him, but this chick who was my ride home told me she force fed him a xanax bar but he was still going crazy so I gave her some valium to give to him, later I spoke to the guy who sold the acid to him (mate of mine) and he said yeah man I didnt know he would have that reaction, cause this bloke just approached me looking for some cid, he was a psycho or something, my mate who sold said he got naked and was getting angry and trying to push people and stuff.

He ended up falling asleep after the xanax and valium and left when he woke up.