Psychics and whatnot

[voxmystic]

These things are not senses. They are mental states.

It's like happiness. You don't have a sense of happiness (even if you might use the word 'sense' to describe your feeling). You experience happiness as a state of mind.

When you 'sense' happiness in someone else you are not using some actual happiness sense organ. You are using all your other senses combined with your knowledge of people to look at how they smile, listen to how they talk, observe their body language etc.

I don't fully understand deja vu but i think it's a state of mind. Love is clearly a state of mind along the lines of happiness (if more extreme).

Please allow me to clarify. "Love at first sight" was a poor choice of words. They don't make a word for what I mean, that I know of. It's this: have you ever just SEEN someone, never spoken, or even just spoken a very few words, but suddenly you had a strong feeling about that person that you were going to be great friends, or be greatly influenced by him/her? I can't explain any better than that, but it feels a lot like deja vu. Has this happened to you?

I don't fully understand deja vu, or this other thing, either. But I think they're related to the sort of intuition Deja is talking about.

Too bad you don't talk about it more, Deja. I'm fascinated!

 

[MrM]

I wanted to add that this is somewhat just personal semantics here... You said that as if being intuitive, empathic and knowing how to read people/situations was something normal and separate from being "psychic", something far fetched. I view a strong emotional IQ and the ability to read and examine situations, people, things, etc as a part of being psychic. I don't think there is a clear line... we all use logic and intuition together to some degree, it seems to me. I think people who are considered psychic by most are just stronger on the intuitive side, but it isn't as if when one has a psychic vision about something they aren't using their logical mind as well to come to the conclusion they come to. It all works together.

Maybe it does come down to semantics.

I think the clear difference from my perspective between someone attributing this kind of ability to 'psychic powers' and someone attributing it to intuition or being able to read people comes down to the explanation and understanding.

'Psychic powers' suggest some kind of spooky not scientifically explainable ability that is outside of normal experience and which will probably never be fully understood outside any kind of mystical framework.

Intuition, reading people and other explainable techniques can accomplish the same result only can be explained, replicated, analysed and taught.

Given that there are people practicing these techniques who can do the same things as the psychics who claim to have mystical powers i tend to go with the people who can offer a decent explanation for their abilities.

It makes sense to think people would naturally evolve the ability to read other people, given that we are social animals.

Please allow me to clarify. "Love at first sight" was a poor choice of words. They don't make a word for what I mean, that I know of. It's this: have you ever just SEEN someone, never spoken, or even just spoken a very few words, but suddenly you had a strong feeling about that person that you were going to be great friends, or be greatly influenced by him/her? I can't explain any better than that, but it feels a lot like deja vu. Has this happened to you?

Not in a romantic setting, but i have made instant connections with people who for whatever reason i just seemed to get on with really well, and still been friends with years latter.

I would think this is just a subconscious decision to react to someone in a certain way. We make all kinds of judgements on all sorts of criteria when we first meet someone. Is it surprising if occasionally we see someone particularly interesting for whatever reason?

This feeling is not completely reliable. Cult leaders often posses personal magnetism or charisma and can gain followers quickly, despite not necessarily being good people. Also drugs like MDMA can increase the likelyhood of encountering these feelings.

 

[voxmystic]

This feeling is not completely reliable. Cult leaders often posses personal magnetism or charisma and can gain followers quickly, despite not necessarily being good people. Also drugs like MDMA can increase the likelyhood of encountering these feelings.

Testify!

 

[MrM]

Sorry does 'testify' mean you agree with me or that you want me to provide more evidence?

My point is just that if the feeling can be experienced either artificially or in error that suggests a mechanism that can fail (but which is explainable) rather than some kind of mystical psychic power.

 

[voxmystic]

"Testify" is short for "I'll testify to that". A southern baptist "hell, yeah", if you will. (Not that I'm either southern or baptist, but I grew up down there, and some of it rubbed off.)

"Mystical psychic power" is, I believe, very explainable. It's just an extention of the kind of people-reading skills you were talking about. As was pointed out, I think we're all talking about apples here, we're just stumbling over semantics.

 

[MrM]

"Testify" is short for "I'll testify to that". A southern baptist "hell, yeah", if you will. (Not that I'm either southern or baptist, but I grew up down there, and some of it rubbed off.)

Fair enough, thanks for the explanation.

"Mystical psychic power" is, I believe, very explainable. It's just an extention of the kind of people-reading skills you were talking about. As was pointed out, I think we're all talking about apples here, we're just stumbling over semantics.

The important difference is in terms of the assumption the thing is either explanable or else not explanable and also in terms of understanding the limits of ability.

Derren Brown can use his people reading skills and cold reading abilities to make someone think he can communicate with the dead (for example) but this is very different to someone who actually believes they have the psychic ability to talk to dead people.

 

[Macee]

I don't, but unless you believe they had actual psychics working at the other end at facebook (they'd need an aweful lot of them) providing the information then this proves that either you can automate some simple routines and get very convincing 'psychic' like results or that facebook really is psychic. I don't believe facebook is psychic.

Well you entered your birthday, so it got me thinking if the date of your birth meant something? I mean when you find out the complexities of the universe at a quantum level, it makes you think that anything is possible.

This is all new to me, I don't believe in it, but I don't not believe in it.

Wouldn't all this tie into the spirit world aswell?

Deja could you share your experiences? if not in public in private? if it's alright with you that is. (not that I can or would want to force you anyway lol)

 

[n3ophy7e]

OK so the psychic said a lot of stuff. Some of that stuff was scarily accurate but a lot of it was just for your enjoyment?

That's how these people work. Say a lot of things, see what sticks and allow the recipients mind to fill in the blanks and concentrate on those areas that seemed to fit.

You say you were keeping a pocker face, but if she was an experienced 'psychic' then you were effectively sitting across from an expert poker player so i don't think this will have made much difference.

Hey man, you can shit all over my experience as much as you like. You forget to acknowledge the most important part of my encounter which was the fact that for whatever reason this woman said the things that she said, it nudged me in the direction to make a couple of decisions for the better. I was not expecting her to even bring up the things that she did, but for whatever reason she said things that made me deeply contemplate my life and make changes for the better, so please by all means tell me what is wrong with that?

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

'Psychic powers' suggest some kind of spooky not scientifically explainable ability that is outside of normal experience and which will probably never be fully understood outside any kind of mystical framework.

Maybe. But we have to remember that we are still a relatively young species... we are still learning and have much to learn about this universe and all the crazy things within it. We are children really... we don't even fully understand how our own bodies work. Always learning.

So while some things may seem spooky and unexplainable to us now, that doesn't mean there isn't a real explanation. That is why I sort of hate the term "supernatural"... I use it to explain things but really, nothing is "super" natural. The spirit/psychic world is a part of this world, and it is natural, most just don't connect to it or understand it yet. It will take time.

 

[Perpetual Indulgence]

she thensaid I was gonna be in the trade business....she said I had a good heart and that I would eventually be working for myself.

I went to one for fun 2 years ago and she said my husband was going to go into construction and work for himself. My husband's dad is a contractor and he wants nothing to do with that field professionally. She also said a bunch of obvious shit layered with compliments towards me. She said that God would bless us with 2 boys. I am not relgious and I don't want kids. She said that we would be headed for changes in our lives...duh? Isn't that what life is about?

Worst $50 I ever spent. I walked out and told the 2 people I was with don't bother spending the money.

You take what you want from them like a horoscope. We have 2 male pets...there are our 2 boys. We were in the planning stages of moving to another state...change. My husband is a stylist...he works for himself.

However, my mother in law took us to one as part of my bridal shower. She used tarot cards. She did not ask us any background info or questions before starting the readings. There were 5 of us. She turned to my now sister in law and said Josh is going to ask you to marry him this year. He did. When we left, we realized not one of us had mentioned Josh's name nor his existance. She also tapped into my anger issues with my father and that I should seek help. I went to therapy later that year.

 

[voxmystic]

Maybe. But we have to remember that we are still a relatively young species... we are still learning and have much to learn about this universe and all the crazy things within it. We are children really... we don't even fully understand how our own bodies work. Always learning.

So while some things may seem spooky and unexplainable to us now, that doesn't mean there isn't a real explanation. That is why I sort of hate the term "supernatural"... I use it to explain things but really, nothing is "super" natural. The spirit/psychic world is a part of this world, and it is natural, most just don't connect to it or understand it yet. It will take time.

ThisThisThis!

 

[Macee]

I went to one for fun 2 years ago and she said my husband was going to go into construction and work for himself. My husband's dad is a contractor and he wants nothing to do with that field professionally. She also said a bunch of obvious shit layered with compliments towards me. She said that God would bless us with 2 boys. I am not relgious and I don't want kids. She said that we would be headed for changes in our lives...duh? Isn't that what life is about?

Worst $50 I ever spent. I walked out and told the 2 people I was with don't bother spending the money.

You take what you want from them like a horoscope. We have 2 male pets...there are our 2 boys. We were in the planning stages of moving to another state...change. My husband is a stylist...he works for himself.

However, my mother in law took us to one as part of my bridal shower. She used tarot cards. She did not ask us any background info or questions before starting the readings. There were 5 of us. She turned to my now sister in law and said Josh is going to ask you to marry him this year. He did. When we left, we realized not one of us had mentioned Josh's name nor his existance. She also tapped into my anger issues with my father and that I should seek help. I went to therapy later that year.

Perfect example, a lot are full of shit but there may be some that are legitimate.

oh I remember a long long time ago my grandma went to one, I can't remember all the details but the lady told my grandma her daughter would be engaged with someone, but will break it off and then will marry the next guy she is in a serious relationship with.

my auntie and her fiance broke it off after 7-8 years and she is now in a serious relationship with someone else, time will tell if they get married.


Look, the fact is we barely understand anything in this universe,
for example, The double slit experiment.
Electrons know we are observing them? Perhaps something like that is in order with the tarot cards, maybe they order themselves in a certain way? I have no idea but what joe rogan calls the fart experiment (or something like that) makes a lot of sense.

If a person who has no sense of smell walks into a room where someone just farted, he did not hear it. He would have no idea it's there, everyone else with the sense can smell it. but the person who cant smell will just be sitting there as if everything's normal, he'd have no idea he's basking in fart.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

However, my mother in law took us to one as part of my bridal shower. She used tarot cards. She did not ask us any background info or questions before starting the readings. There were 5 of us. She turned to my now sister in law and said Josh is going to ask you to marry him this year. He did. When we left, we realized not one of us had mentioned Josh's name nor his existance. She also tapped into my anger issues with my father and that I should seek help. I went to therapy later that year.

See that sounds like more of a real empath. It isn't that she's reading your "thoughts" but more picking up on key things that stand out within your psyche... I get stuff like this off people sometimes but it comes like the rain comes... of it's own time. I hate when people are like "What am I thinking right now then???" It doesn't work that way. I'm glad you had that experience though and that it helped lead you into some good therapy.

As far as tarot... the cards themselves are not magical, all they are is a tool... it's basically using synchronicity to your advantage. The I-ching is another good one.

Oracles are like a good mirror... they don't really tell you anything that your higher consciousness doesn't already know deep down inside. But they help you connect, which can be very beneficial at times. Sometimes we don't see what is right in front of us. Tarot readings have provided me some profound realizations.

 

[MrM]

Hey man, you can shit all over my experience as much as you like. You forget to acknowledge the most important part of my encounter which was the fact that for whatever reason this woman said the things that she said, it nudged me in the direction to make a couple of decisions for the better. I was not expecting her to even bring up the things that she did, but for whatever reason she said things that made me deeply contemplate my life and make changes for the better, so please by all means tell me what is wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with someone helping you with your life. People do this all the time, councillers, parents, friends, whatever.

I feel less happy about psychics doing this. If i wanted help i'd either turn to a friend (who i trusted) or turn to a qualified professional who had real verifiable credentials and skills.

I have no doubt a 'psychic' con-person will occasionally come out with stuff that certain people do find helpful, if only by chance. You wont have been the only person that particular psychic talked to.

There is a certain tendancy amongst psychic believers to bring up quantum physics to back up their point of view. The argument is more or less;

"Quantum physics is wierd and we don't understand it properly therefore psychic powers are real"

But this doesn't count for much. If psychic powers were real we could test for them scientifically even if we didn't understand the cause. As soon as psychic powers resulted in a repeatable statistically significant result it would revolutionise our understanding of the human mind to the point that there would be no doubt and we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

[n3ophy7e]

There is nothing wrong with someone helping you with your life. People do this all the time, councillers, parents, friends, whatever.

I feel less happy about psychics doing this. If i wanted help i'd either turn to a friend (who i trusted) or turn to a qualified professional who had real verifiable credentials and skills.

I agree wholeheartedly. And you seem to have again forgotten that in my original post I specified that I went to see the psychic for a bit of a laugh with my friend, we paid her for her services as a form of entertainment. I did not go to her to "seek help" or any kind of clarification on any aspect of my life. It just happened. And there's nothing wrong with that

 

[ocean]

"Quantum physics is wierd and we don't understand it properly therefore psychic powers are real"

But this doesn't count for much. If psychic powers were real we could test for them scientifically even if we didn't understand the cause. As soon as psychic powers resulted in a repeatable statistically significant result it would revolutionise our understanding of the human mind to the point that there would be no doubt and we wouldn't be having this debate.

Why is this a debate?
I don't understand why every time someone shares a positive experience with a psychic you seem to chime in with a dismissal. You don't have to believe but its a shame you are choosing to try to shut others down with things like

Originally Posted by MrM
There is nothing wrong with someone helping you with your life. People do this all the time, councillers, parents, friends, whatever.

I feel less happy about psychics doing this. If i wanted help i'd either turn to a friend (who i trusted) or turn to a qualified professional who had real verifiable credentials and skills

N3o didn't state she was out for "help" as you're calling it.......

Why can't we just hear experiences, discuss and not argue it?
I would hate for others to be swayed to not participate here.
There are people in this thread you have had psychic experiences or experiences along those lines......

 

[n3ophy7e]

MrM, in my opinion, arguing against people who choose to believe in psychics is exactly the same as arguing against people who choose to believe in any god. Would you shoot down people from any religion the way you are shooting down "believers" in this thread??

 

[MrM]

Why is this a debate?
I don't understand why every time someone shares a positive experience with a psychic you seem to chime in with a dismissal. You don't have to believe but its a shame you are choosing to try to shut others down with things like

The initial topic of discussion was psychics, skepticism, the possible validity of the psychic method and whether or not a psychic might be able to help the OP's mum. The OP specifically asked the question 'Are they full of shit or not' which i have done my best to answer.

As such it's completely reasonable that some people are going to take one side of the discussion and other people the other side. That is why this is a debate.

My point about psychics trying to help people was relevant if you re-read the original post. n3ophy7e may not have gone seeking this help, but many people do including the OP's mum, and many psychics try and provide this service (either from genuine deluded self belief or because it makes them money). I think this is harmful for the reasons i have given and thus an important point to make.

You forget to acknowledge the most important part of my encounter which was the fact that for whatever reason this woman said the things that she said, it nudged me in the direction to make a couple of decisions for the better. I was not expecting her to even bring up the things that she did, but for whatever reason she said things that made me deeply contemplate my life and make changes for the better, so please by all means tell me what is wrong with that?

You forget that this doesn't count for much as proof of anything. I think you are not giving yourself enough credit here. I suspect the psychic said a bunch of stuff, some of which stuck because she was good at the game, and then you went away and thought about your life and re-evaluated some stuff and came out a better person for it. I think you are the one that did the hard work and deserves the credit. This is not me shitting on your experience (as you so charmingly put it). This is me offering an alternative scientifically explainable reason for what you experienced without necessarily lessening the value of the experience at all (assuming you value the positive life change I'm arguing that you made for yourself rather than valuing the fact you met a real life psychic). It would be a shame if your hostile response to this point discourage other people with views similar to mine involving themselves in the debate.

MrM, in my opinion, arguing against people who choose to believe in psychics is exactly the same as arguing against people who choose to believe in any god. Would you shoot down people from any religion the way you are shooting down "believers" in this thread??

Are you saying belief in psychics, mysticism and psychic powers are another area of a persons mind, that like religion, is so fragile and special it cannot stand any criticism? Putting psychics and belief in psychic powers on this kind of untouchable pedistal strikes me as dangerous.

I would indeed debate with religious people in a similar way, if the context was similar. If the subject we were discussion was (for example) infant circumcision, or the politics of the middle east, or condoms in africa, i would be equally critical of religious leaders and religious belief as i am being of psychics when the discussion is around the ability of these people to help someone's mum with life.

These topics are only sacred and off limits to believers who's religion tells them this is the case. If people with such beliefs want to keep people who don't share these beliefs out of the debate then they should not debate in public.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

If psychic powers were real we could test for them scientifically even if we didn't understand the cause.

No, we clearly can't. Not with the scientific systems we have currently. You can't test on something that you haven't even come up with the tools to test it with yet. If you think you should be able to scientifically test this stuff then you DON'T get how it works.

Why is this a debate?
I don't understand why every time someone shares a positive experience with a psychic you seem to chime in with a dismissal. You don't have to believe but its a shame you are choosing to try to shut others down with things like

Yep, this is exactly why I no longer talk about my experiences on here (No offense to Mrm, not that you are being disrespectful but to me this is not a matter of "debate"-it is my life).

On that note, I'm done with this thread. Anyone who would like to talk further about this subject feel free to PM me as some of you guys already have.

 

[n3ophy7e]

As such it's completely reasonable that some people are going to take one side of the discussion and other people the other side. That is why this is a debate.

It's not a debate if YOU are the only person trying to make a debate. The existence of people's beliefs is not up for discussion. Who are you to try and persuade people that they are wrong??

Are you saying belief in psychics, mysticism and psychic powers are another area of a persons mind, that like religion, is so fragile and special it cannot stand any criticism? Putting psychics and belief in psychic powers on this kind of untouchable pedistal strikes me as dangerous.

No, I am not saying that at all, and I fail to see how you could possibly draw that conclusion from anything that I've said :D

I would indeed debate with religious people in a similar way, if the context was similar. If the subject we were discussion was (for example) infant circumcision, or the politics of the middle east, or condoms in africa, i would be equally critical of religious leaders and religious belief as i am being of psychics when the discussion is around the ability of these people to help someone's mum with life.

These topics are only sacred and off limits to believers who's religion tells them this is the case. If people with such beliefs want to keep people who don't share these beliefs out of the debate then they should not debate in public.

MrM, you misunderstand what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, and that people who believe in psychics are right. I'm just trying to help you understand that people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe. When it comes to personal beliefs, no-one is wrong. Who are you, one mere person, to try and make people discard their thoughts and opinions?

You are entitled to your own opinion, just as everyone else is. Please just be a bit more respectful to other people's ideals. If you don't like what people are saying in threads like this, there is a perfect solution.....don't read them

Thank you.