Everlasting
Bluelighter
Misunderstanding point. Research that talks about threads in common themes & such. I don't really want to recount my readings just putting it out there & in support of the opinion as an actually educated viewpoint IMHO
Psychedelics other than Dissociatives are Satan's End Times Brainwashing Tool
- Thread starter treezy z
- Start date
Crashing
Bluelighter
QFT ...now, where'd i put my trident?
Wiserthanearlier
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2017
- Messages
- 676
Treezy, if your in and out of institutions, msybe see what life is like after a break?
I feel, lots of energy from your soundcloud post, but it aint pleasant.
Opinions are always welcome, and i ain't dissing yours, judt think you might hsve a different take on the world after sobriety and some grounding.
Peace
I feel, lots of energy from your soundcloud post, but it aint pleasant.
Opinions are always welcome, and i ain't dissing yours, judt think you might hsve a different take on the world after sobriety and some grounding.
Peace
Incunabula
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,861
The problem with the relativism/phenomenalism that people like The hypnotist espouse, is that you have to be open to the fact, for instance, that the nazi's were right. That Ultima Thule/Hyperborea really existed, that the aryans originated there and that they truly are a superior race. Also that the jews and the africans really are a bunch of untermenschen only fit for extermination or slavelabour.
Relativism/phenomenalism/solipsism is also a complete and total philosophical dead-end of absolutely no importance, except to justify what ever imagination one fancies to be true.
No. All truths aren't equally close to the 'real truth', that 'reality' which nobody truely experiences, but which can be approximated or indirectly described by repeatable experiments. Not believing in a consensus reality is nonsensical. Not trusting ones senses though, that's being sensible. Humans need objective methods to find out what is true and what is not. Because humans have waaaay to much imagination for their own good. And only a fool thinks he can figure reality out by himself.
There are many theories about our reality, but only the scientific method made airplanes fly and telephones talk. (Caveat: I'm not claiming we know everything about everything. But let's not make all sorts of things up, about the stuff we don't know - but let us admit our ignorance rather)
And just because a bunch of people believe the earth is flat - which there actually is, right now in 2017! - doesn't mean that they have some kind of percentage of truth in what they believe. The earth is spherical of a kind. That's a fact. It's actually verifiable by a normal lay person in several ways.
And by the way, organised religion isn't only a delusion, it's in most cases also brainwashing - since it is, in the majority of cases, a belief you inherit from your parents.
And in before someone say 'that religion and science arent' neccesarily in opposition' - then that is true. But science has taken a lot of ground from religion, and banished it to the dark corners we haven't illuminated yet, as well as making it feasible to actually live as an atheist.
If we one day discover what time really 'is', and why it 'began' (an answer we probably have as little chance to imagine correctly now, as the cro-magnons had a chance to imagine the molecule) as well as the origin and 'substance' of conciousness, and how life began on earth - Then we will truelly be able to claim God as dead. I personally believe that that day will one day come. And remember, out of all the mysteries ever solved, the answer was never ' it happened by magic'.
I'm not really not as much a science zealot as I sound though, lol, I just have a hard time with the sillyness of the complete relativist.
Relativism/phenomenalism/solipsism is also a complete and total philosophical dead-end of absolutely no importance, except to justify what ever imagination one fancies to be true.
No. All truths aren't equally close to the 'real truth', that 'reality' which nobody truely experiences, but which can be approximated or indirectly described by repeatable experiments. Not believing in a consensus reality is nonsensical. Not trusting ones senses though, that's being sensible. Humans need objective methods to find out what is true and what is not. Because humans have waaaay to much imagination for their own good. And only a fool thinks he can figure reality out by himself.
There are many theories about our reality, but only the scientific method made airplanes fly and telephones talk. (Caveat: I'm not claiming we know everything about everything. But let's not make all sorts of things up, about the stuff we don't know - but let us admit our ignorance rather)
And just because a bunch of people believe the earth is flat - which there actually is, right now in 2017! - doesn't mean that they have some kind of percentage of truth in what they believe. The earth is spherical of a kind. That's a fact. It's actually verifiable by a normal lay person in several ways.
And by the way, organised religion isn't only a delusion, it's in most cases also brainwashing - since it is, in the majority of cases, a belief you inherit from your parents.
And in before someone say 'that religion and science arent' neccesarily in opposition' - then that is true. But science has taken a lot of ground from religion, and banished it to the dark corners we haven't illuminated yet, as well as making it feasible to actually live as an atheist.
If we one day discover what time really 'is', and why it 'began' (an answer we probably have as little chance to imagine correctly now, as the cro-magnons had a chance to imagine the molecule) as well as the origin and 'substance' of conciousness, and how life began on earth - Then we will truelly be able to claim God as dead. I personally believe that that day will one day come. And remember, out of all the mysteries ever solved, the answer was never ' it happened by magic'.
I'm not really not as much a science zealot as I sound though, lol, I just have a hard time with the sillyness of the complete relativist.
Everlasting
Bluelighter
I concur with a lot of what Incunabula had to say. What I wanted to say & left out in my post was that viewpoints I've held my whole life shifted to a substantial degree when I began to truly investigate my beliefs & experiences in a logical, scientific, & historical context.
Ziiirp
Bluelighter
Depends from which perspective you approach it. For me they are brain-cleansing tools for pagans, that help them to free themselves from the Christian (or other monotheistic, imperialistic institutions) oppression.
The Hypnotist
Bluelighter
First just to say that I cannot but agree with a lot of what Incunabula have said but with significant nuances. In any case, it is a wonderfully written post. I enjoy getting criticism that I can learn from, even if I am not going to hide that my ego suffers 
I could and probably be expected to defend any idea I have already mentioned. But I don't have to and I allow myself to change sides as many times as I like because I am trying to be in no closed ideology. As much as my ego likes to be right my existencial need for truth should overcome that. Another thing is how successful I can manage to be in such an enterprise. And you are welcome to think or express whatever you think of that.
I don't consider myself a hard relativist as I believe there is an absolute truth. I just don't think it can be attainable with our capacity, at least as of now. As well I think as much as we can try we cannot really separate our emotions from reason completely. The paradigm of our time can be having a strong weight in our perception, if we look at history it was clear past paradigms blinded our ancestors from valuable insights, so it should be safe to assume it is happening to us. Though it is never safe assuming. And our senses are not to be relied 100% as imperfect as they are.
A bit of background...I used to be a hard anarchist materialist. I had strong opinions that I believed to be truth and that could find plenty of examples to back up. I laugh at people who were spiritual, religious, capitalists, communists, etc...Really thought they were just wrong and despised them.
As long as I kept travelling around Europe I managed to keep my narrow mindedness. But once I went to Asia I was forced to leave my circle and stop feeding myself with the same kind of ideas continuously. Very slowly started to realize that deep enough nobody knows really anything with a complete certainty and got exposed to all kind of ideas. I don't know who said something like ''The problem with the world is that intelligent people is full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence ''.
Well I was definitely very confident and stupid, I might be still far from wise but I am sure to have improved. I just try to question anything I believe and try to understand what I don't. Of course, I fail miserably and I am not in any way a philosopher. So expect plenty of contradictions. And you might even think than instead of evolution I have been devolutioning.
When I say there is some kind of truth in any belief...never said there is an equal amount of truth...I mean all beliefs have some kind of truth and honesty under.
Just taking your crazy examples, I could say that even if the Earth is not flat it ''looks flat'' at first impression. And that perception is telling us something about our experience.
The nazis even if they behaved in some of the worst fashion we have seen in recent history had probably some valuable and honorable traits on their world view, etc...Maybe they were right in that Germany had been over-punished for First World War, I don't really know.
Basically my premise is that a belief can only be hold when it is honestly meaningful in that person and moment in time. And that's equal to its perception of reality. To his truth. So even if self-deceived a minimum part of the belief should have some valuable truth to make it possible.
I am conscious this can be quite weak at a phylosophical level. But I don't see how we could put the line otherwise in what has truth in it from what not. I resist from just objective facts due to our poor capability and the important subjective side.
It is easier from our advanced point of view to look at the past and see its faults. But without those mistakes, we could not be able to have our actual worldview.
I have to admit that I don't like scientists charging against religious beliefs. I am in no way religious but I had plenty of contact with Muslims and some of the most benevolent human people I've met were of that doctrine. Some of them were really smart people far from stupid and deserve high respect from me.
You could consider any ideology as brainwashing. Basically, it is brainwashing when it is thought to be bad and transmission of valuable knowledge when it is thought to be good.
I think to be respectful of other people beliefs is the only way to convince them of yours. As far as an opinion is expressed honestly it should be accepted as a valid position. You can argue any drawbacks but respect is an important thing.
As much as I wish we can one day find out about the origins of everything. I am afraid it might be just out of reach. Making a metaphor, it is for a man as difficult to understand the universe as it is for a neuron to understand humans. I repeat...metaphor...
Might sound like I am against Science but I think it is a really valuable method. A real game changer. Probably has its limitations and I think it is not the last stop in our journey. The subjective part of reality is an important part and for the moment at least, science is struggling. Anyway, scientist thinking they will get all answers are having pure and raw faith IMO. Especially as we are seeing that science is better at creating new questions that at answering them.
I think too that the randomness that scientific worldview confront us with might make our life less meaningful. IMO spirituality needs to be refined after the religious experiment, but we need that in some way or another.
As a conscious being trying to give meaning to my experience I cannot just put aside how ''magic'' is that we and the rest exist in the first place. As magic that all cultures studied have some kind of religion. Not all believe in Gods, though almost all, but all have a set of views on the big questions. It is a sure thing. If you are capable of formulate the questions you'll get a belief about them, even if it is just that there is no point in asking the questions in the first place.
Hope I made clear my confused point of view. To be honest I am a mess and I love it. And of course, be my guest and believe and criticize whatever you like.
I could and probably be expected to defend any idea I have already mentioned. But I don't have to and I allow myself to change sides as many times as I like because I am trying to be in no closed ideology. As much as my ego likes to be right my existencial need for truth should overcome that. Another thing is how successful I can manage to be in such an enterprise. And you are welcome to think or express whatever you think of that.I don't consider myself a hard relativist as I believe there is an absolute truth. I just don't think it can be attainable with our capacity, at least as of now. As well I think as much as we can try we cannot really separate our emotions from reason completely. The paradigm of our time can be having a strong weight in our perception, if we look at history it was clear past paradigms blinded our ancestors from valuable insights, so it should be safe to assume it is happening to us. Though it is never safe assuming. And our senses are not to be relied 100% as imperfect as they are.
A bit of background...I used to be a hard anarchist materialist. I had strong opinions that I believed to be truth and that could find plenty of examples to back up. I laugh at people who were spiritual, religious, capitalists, communists, etc...Really thought they were just wrong and despised them.
As long as I kept travelling around Europe I managed to keep my narrow mindedness. But once I went to Asia I was forced to leave my circle and stop feeding myself with the same kind of ideas continuously. Very slowly started to realize that deep enough nobody knows really anything with a complete certainty and got exposed to all kind of ideas. I don't know who said something like ''The problem with the world is that intelligent people is full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence ''.
Well I was definitely very confident and stupid, I might be still far from wise but I am sure to have improved. I just try to question anything I believe and try to understand what I don't. Of course, I fail miserably and I am not in any way a philosopher. So expect plenty of contradictions. And you might even think than instead of evolution I have been devolutioning.
When I say there is some kind of truth in any belief...never said there is an equal amount of truth...I mean all beliefs have some kind of truth and honesty under.
Just taking your crazy examples, I could say that even if the Earth is not flat it ''looks flat'' at first impression. And that perception is telling us something about our experience.
The nazis even if they behaved in some of the worst fashion we have seen in recent history had probably some valuable and honorable traits on their world view, etc...Maybe they were right in that Germany had been over-punished for First World War, I don't really know.
Basically my premise is that a belief can only be hold when it is honestly meaningful in that person and moment in time. And that's equal to its perception of reality. To his truth. So even if self-deceived a minimum part of the belief should have some valuable truth to make it possible.
I am conscious this can be quite weak at a phylosophical level. But I don't see how we could put the line otherwise in what has truth in it from what not. I resist from just objective facts due to our poor capability and the important subjective side.
It is easier from our advanced point of view to look at the past and see its faults. But without those mistakes, we could not be able to have our actual worldview.
I have to admit that I don't like scientists charging against religious beliefs. I am in no way religious but I had plenty of contact with Muslims and some of the most benevolent human people I've met were of that doctrine. Some of them were really smart people far from stupid and deserve high respect from me.
You could consider any ideology as brainwashing. Basically, it is brainwashing when it is thought to be bad and transmission of valuable knowledge when it is thought to be good.
I think to be respectful of other people beliefs is the only way to convince them of yours. As far as an opinion is expressed honestly it should be accepted as a valid position. You can argue any drawbacks but respect is an important thing.
As much as I wish we can one day find out about the origins of everything. I am afraid it might be just out of reach. Making a metaphor, it is for a man as difficult to understand the universe as it is for a neuron to understand humans. I repeat...metaphor...
Might sound like I am against Science but I think it is a really valuable method. A real game changer. Probably has its limitations and I think it is not the last stop in our journey. The subjective part of reality is an important part and for the moment at least, science is struggling. Anyway, scientist thinking they will get all answers are having pure and raw faith IMO. Especially as we are seeing that science is better at creating new questions that at answering them.
I think too that the randomness that scientific worldview confront us with might make our life less meaningful. IMO spirituality needs to be refined after the religious experiment, but we need that in some way or another.
As a conscious being trying to give meaning to my experience I cannot just put aside how ''magic'' is that we and the rest exist in the first place. As magic that all cultures studied have some kind of religion. Not all believe in Gods, though almost all, but all have a set of views on the big questions. It is a sure thing. If you are capable of formulate the questions you'll get a belief about them, even if it is just that there is no point in asking the questions in the first place.
Hope I made clear my confused point of view. To be honest I am a mess and I love it. And of course, be my guest and believe and criticize whatever you like.
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Salemcoyote
Bluelighter
So what I got from the OP is that doing enough Ketamine will eventually make you crazy. I think I will stick to acid, now fuck off thank you kindly
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Not ketamine actually, mostly PCP in this case if my memory serves. But yeah, disso abuse has the highest probability of making you crazy of pretty much any drug, IMO.
Yeah, there was a thread on why PCP is such a ...problematic drug a while ago.
It's basically a disso with a long half-life and dopaminergic effects (both reuptake inhibition and direct receptor agonism, in addition to the NMDA-mediated dopaminergic dysregulation).
Say what you want about ketamine addiction, but permanent urinary incontinence still seems preferable to randomly deciding to eat one of your kid's eyeballs and chop off your own legs.
Yep, dissos are their own unique and powerful flavor of disinhibition.
The vast majority of users don't go apeshit and start killing and eating people. An MXE or 3-MeO-PCP bender, for me, typically involves marathon video gaming, a couple of loopy posts online. Kinky sex if I'm with someone appropriate.
Most people don't have a monster chained up somewhere inside. People who do should stay the fuck away from dissos.
vortech
Bluelighter
I feel I am a little late to catch up with all this drama, but yeah, treezy, bring that Z back to A, and humbly admit you need to learn some ABCs. There is a lot more to the story I think you aren't catching, so simmer down child and take the backseat for awhile.
FuckinAcidMan
Bluelighter
As someone who loves PCP and its analogs as well as LSD and its analogs i wanna make one thing clear: I figured all of it out forever and always (not at all) and no one has to worry! I am god (as are you! except craig fuck craig) and i have decided none of this shit really matters that much. Free love and chaotic anarchic paganism can be an issue im sure, but so can rigidly enforced strict hierarchical imperialistic theocratic order. So do whatever the fuck god says its fine just fuck off with all these plastics in the oceans Jesus Christ.
curiosity
Bluelighter
Obviously a troll but what if I told you psychedelics COULD, not will but COULD allow you to meet God, he/she/it will probably not be as you imagined though.
Ziiirp
Bluelighter
He is not a troll. Actually a really nice and capable Bluelighter. The only problem I see is his affiliation with Christianity.
Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yeah I was about to say, the OP isn't a troll, unfortunately. Just a longtime poster who has really exacerbated mental issues with dissociatives.
I'm more against the violence, misogyny and racism. My mom is a Christian, and she's amazing, she has been working in her church to accept people of all kinds for many years (successfully) and she doesn't have hate in her heart for anyone. She basically stands in opposition to all of the things that you and I would say are problems being caused by Christianity today in our culture. She helps me realize that the problem is people using it for social control purposes, and the millions of scared and angry people too brainwashed/unwilling to give enough effort into realizing how damaging hatred is. Christians aren't the problem. Isms are the problem, the division of us vs them.
I'm more against the violence, misogyny and racism. My mom is a Christian, and she's amazing, she has been working in her church to accept people of all kinds for many years (successfully) and she doesn't have hate in her heart for anyone. She basically stands in opposition to all of the things that you and I would say are problems being caused by Christianity today in our culture. She helps me realize that the problem is people using it for social control purposes, and the millions of scared and angry people too brainwashed/unwilling to give enough effort into realizing how damaging hatred is. Christians aren't the problem. Isms are the problem, the division of us vs them.
Ziiirp
Bluelighter
I totally agree with you. I know more great Christians than great Atheists today to be honest. My hypothesis is just : Haven't the atheists (of today) not been robbed of their religion many centuries ago, wouldn't there be much more unity amongst the central Europeans (through pacifistic paganism) than there was the last couple of hundred years ? Christianity, if seen from the macro-perspective brought nothing to the table for the indigenous people of central and eastern Europe, AFAIK. It substituted diversity and peace with unity and oppression.
If I could choose, I'll take the former any day.
Also to note. Many modern protestants are deeply ashamed of what the Roman Catholics did during the times of imperialism. Still Protestantism is still a branch of the same religion, that oppressed so many great cultures.
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Xorkoth
Bluelight Crew
Yeah it's a complex issue. I'd like for everyone to just think for themselves... that would be nice. If you're gonna dislike or hate someone, it should be because they personally did something to you to deserve it. Unfortunately spirituality and thus religion is the most potent and ground-level way of controlling people. If you control their very souls, they'll do or think anything for you. And there are always those sociopathic power mongers among us, looking for anything to hold dominion over everyone. There is simply no better way than through spirituality. Religion is simply the codification of spiritual rules for the purpose of dictating to others what to believe (this is not in itself a negative thing, it is inevitable and generally originally comes from a desire to help). But there is no more powerful motivator than fear of eternal damnation, or lust for eternal rewards. Using that, leaders can turn entire populations against other populations for the purpose of conquest or acquisition, or instill fear in this or that for the purpose of eroding personal freedoms and gaining more power. And so on.
But thoughts like these, they're satan manifesting his will through my nonbeliever ass... don't listen to me. Reason is the tool of the devil. Drink your kool-aid and sit down, if you keep questioning, Jesus is gonna hear you and tell his dad, and trust me, you don't want that. The lake of fire* beckons...
* Doesn't "lake" imply that it's localized? Maybe all the people in hell need to just start walking in one direction, as long as it's away from the lake. Could be there's beautiful verdant rainforests and cool, majestic mountains if you just walk away from the lake. Maybe hell is a grand place, and you get dropped off at the lake until you're ready to open your eyes and stop feeling like you need to be punished for some stupid shit that a bunch of sinister humans wrote to keep control over the masses.
Now, an ocean of fire... that's a different story. I'd try to avoid one of those altogether.
But thoughts like these, they're satan manifesting his will through my nonbeliever ass... don't listen to me. Reason is the tool of the devil. Drink your kool-aid and sit down, if you keep questioning, Jesus is gonna hear you and tell his dad, and trust me, you don't want that. The lake of fire* beckons...
* Doesn't "lake" imply that it's localized? Maybe all the people in hell need to just start walking in one direction, as long as it's away from the lake. Could be there's beautiful verdant rainforests and cool, majestic mountains if you just walk away from the lake. Maybe hell is a grand place, and you get dropped off at the lake until you're ready to open your eyes and stop feeling like you need to be punished for some stupid shit that a bunch of sinister humans wrote to keep control over the masses.
Now, an ocean of fire... that's a different story. I'd try to avoid one of those altogether.
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Ziiirp
Bluelighter
Lol, great Post. Have to reread the stuff in small font size.
Fact for me is. As great as Christianity might have been/worked in Jerusalem/Greece/Byzantium. For my taste there was too much violence going on, when taking over the north (Southern/Central/Western Europe, Russia). Nothing ever sustainable can be the result of violence. Hence my criticism towards Christianity in Europe.