psychedelics and denial of the divine

[nuke]

^^ Not to be nit-picky, but Spinoza was a Jew. Is there a word to lump in all religions that stem from the Old Testament/Tanakh?

 

[specialspack]

Sorry yes, Spinoza was a Jew by birth (although excommunicated) I should have said Judeo-Christian - interesting enough, at the time being accused of agreeing with his ideas was on a level with being accused of being an atheist, i.e. a very bad thing.

I think "Abrahamaic" is the term used to lump Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as Abraham was the crucial linking figure between all three.

 

[MasterOfDeception]

To the initial poster: quite the opposite i would say.

I believe in the 'divine' but not in any god-created.
The whole cosmos is self-existant, the WHOLE is the 'divine', and we can experience portions of this.
I believe Heaven & Hell are states of mind , a lot of people especially in higher doses talk about experiences 'Heaven & Hell' with psychedelics, and I believe that's one of the things that happens when someone dies [DMT is said to be released in bigger amounts, so probably even miliseconds could seem as eternity]... well
......

 

[Xorkoth]

I accept what you say about Wikipedia Xorkoth. But perhaps my issue is with the term 'higher power'.

I guess what believe is that there may well be 'other powers' - or entities or whatever - but not that they are necessarily higher (or lower) in the sense that they would see themselves as such. Just 'other intelligences'. It's in this sense that I see myself as an atheist.

The term higher power implies an inherent reverence - which is OK, but a tad exlusive for my liking. Personally I have reverence for all other life forms or 'intelligences'.

And how can one compare? Does the awe and reverence experienced in psychedelic experiences necessarily imply higher powers - or lower ones, Or just other powers?

Z

I don't believe in a higher power either, not in a conscious entity. I believe that "god" is everything, and that we and everything else are all one, and furthermore, that the force of consciousness within each of us is the same, experiencing itself subjectively through infinite iterations of possiblity. Thus, we are all god. This is what psychedelics and other life experiences have shown me.

This very misconception is the reason I don't like to use the word god, however. The word has too many preconceptions attached to it. As do all words, for that matter.

 

[Youkai]

Does anyone else see how this is a right of passage? everyone here has a benifited by psychedelics by truely understanding what spirituality means. this need to coem back, people need to udnerstand if you they want to assume they can undersdtand that this is needed. the psychedelic experience.

 

[specialspack]

I don't believe in a higher power either, not in a conscious entity. I believe that "god" is everything, and that we and everything else are all one, and furthermore, that the force of consciousness within each of us is the same, experiencing itself subjectively through infinite iterations of possiblity. Thus, we are all god. This is what psychedelics and other life experiences have shown me.

This very misconception is the reason I don't like to use the word god, however. The word has too many preconceptions attached to it. As do all words, for that matter.

I think you'll find that most theologians would characterise your beliefs as stated above as being examplary atheism. You are denying the existence of a theistic godhead.

 

[Xorkoth]

Well, I guess according to that definition, it is then. For some reason I always associated atheism with the lack of belief in spirituality of any kind. I was an atheist by that definition at one time.

 

[Youkai]

Well, I guess according to that definition, it is then. For some reason I always associated atheism with the lack of belief in spirituality of any kind. I was an atheist by that definition at one time.

I too, pre psychedelic use.

Im done for awhile now though. I still help others as I was onc helped but I dont personaly need to use them for at least a couple of months. my last trip was a pretty self on selfone.

 

[gloggawogga]

As I see it, no belief in anything is a substitute for seeing. By seeing I mean direct perception, direct perception of the truth in whatever situation you are in. All beliefs are generalizations based on memories, which are just shadows of past perceptions. But there is never any guarantee the current situation you are in will mirror past situations, so shadows of past perceptions are never really subsitute for direct perception in the present. The worst beliefs, of course, are beliefs based on what other people told us, which are basically shadows of shadows of someone else's perceptions. But even our own beliefs, based on our own past experiences, can be dangerous.

 

[the seeker]

I think you'll find that most theologians would characterise your beliefs as stated above as being examplary atheism. You are denying the existence of a theistic godhead.

no, it sounds like what Xorkoth is describing is understanding of GOD similar to the hindu concept of Brahman, which is the Absolute Reality that manifests in various ways. hinduism is NOT atheistic. atheists do not believe we are all one consciousness experiencing itself, atheists tend to believe in individual consciousness as an evolutionary byeproduct of the physical brain. they are materialists. the spiritual worldview is the belief that consciousness is fundamental and physical matter is just a manisfestion, the atheistic or materialistic worldview says the opposite. i would be curious to hear more about Xorkoth's beliefs.

 

[MasterOfDeception]

I don't believe in a higher power either, not in a conscious entity. I believe that "god" is everything, and that we and everything else are all one, and furthermore, that the force of consciousness within each of us is the same, experiencing itself subjectively through infinite iterations of possiblity. Thus, we are all god. This is what psychedelics and other life experiences have shown me.

This very misconception is the reason I don't like to use the word god, however. The word has too many preconceptions attached to it. As do all words, for that matter.

my thoughts too ... :D

About atheism, although it might be pointless getting stuck in definitions etc..

Buddism/Tao/Zen are considered atheistic religions as far as I know..

And to quote Carl Jung:

Religion is an excuse against religious experience

 

[nuke]

As I see it, no belief in anything is a substitute for seeing. By seeing I mean direct perception, direct perception of the truth in whatever situation you are in. All beliefs are generalizations based on memories, which are just shadows of past perceptions. But there is never any guarantee the current situation you are in will mirror past situations, so shadows of past perceptions are never really subsitute for direct perception in the present. The worst beliefs, of course, are beliefs based on what other people told us, which are basically shadows of shadows of someone else's perceptions. But even our own beliefs, based on our own past experiences, can be dangerous.

Everything we judge and comprehend is a memory, though. The only variant is how far into the past it happened. Memory is the gift that allows us to make comparisons and better judge the recent to the past, so we don't make the same mistakes over again. Not that vigilance is not necessary, but you need to find a place between the two in order to correctly function here. It'd be kind of a silly world if we stuck our arms into fire, burned them, then five minutes later attempted the same thing for consistency or lack of!

This is why I always considered ego death to be blacking out memory-wise, and ego loss to be any approach to that. Materialistic society in the west leans towards the nostalgic end on the spectrum, which is why when they get pull to the right, where change and the recent dominant, they often because confused and hysterical.

 

[gloggawogga]

Not that vigilance is not necessary, but you need to find a place between the two in order to correctly function here.

Yeah but how many times a day do how many peeple walk into a situation with a bunch a preconcieved notions, not see what is really there, and do a bunch of stupid shit? That was my point. And when it comes to belief in a power or a diety, things people do get even sillier.

It'd be kind of a silly world if we stuck our arms into fire, burned them, then five minutes later attempted the same thing for consistency or lack of!

Sure. But how do you know for sure fires are always hot? The direct perception of the radiation emitted by the fire is in itself an indication of its temperature, as well as putting your hand near it and feeling the heat, right? Now lets suppose you get mugged by a black person. How do you know all black people aren't going mug you? Unless you are willing to get near other black people, percieve them as individuals that they are, and find out they won't mug you, you'll never find out.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

MasterofDeception, yes, Buddhism and Taoism are, at their hearts, religions that lack a personal creator god. Local takes on them often feature entities that get translated into English as 'gods', but these are more akin to what we'd think of as spirits or angels -- mysterious and other-worldly, but hardly all-powerful or infallible.

But I find that when you substitute the idea of The Ultimate Source, or The Ultimate Thing That All Things are Made Of, in western writings that mention 'God', it often works quite well. The fallacy is to think that this fundamental matter works anything remotely similar to a human mind.

I came to this realization toward the end of a rather difficult second shroom trip.

 

[Xorkoth]

If you're really curious, here's my Erowid author page. I have a synopsis of my beliefs (which won't format into paragraphs) at the top, and then there are links to the experiences that helped shape these beliefs.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/e...tle=&AuthorSearch=&A1=188&Lang=&Group=-1&Str=

 

[Liric]

seriously, this is a sweet thread.


I have come to think of theism, deities, belief in higher power, etc. to be interpretations of a vague realization that everything which is and a part of our living world is a part of a global equilibrium, the continued existance of which ultimately breaks down into basic natural laws in a fractal-type structure: basic laws naturally assuming the lowest common denominator building on each other to create progressively higher order in our world. Simple chemical reactions which began billions of years ago slowly grow and synergize until cell life occurs, which in turn evolves into multi-celled life. All the while, the same chemical laws are in place, like a song which starts as a steady pulse and retains that pulse as the song grows in complexity. This sort of 'gaian matrix' is what we call 'god', as it embodies the elements we recognize in such a matrix: eternity, cosmic order, unity, equilibrium, and so forth. 'God' is in everything, everywhere; the planet functions as a massive organism, just as we are massive constucts of cells and they of molecules and so forth. It all falls into place and will always equalize itself. At some point the human race developed the capacity to observe this in an objective context and so had to objectify it, hence, deities. Nothin wrong with deities; these days I recognize higher power in this context, but I do not believe 'it' is literally conscious of itself as per theistic beliefs.

The mistake, I believe, came when man lost touch with himself and, in the ultimate narcissism, rechristened the increasingly evasive concept of global unity as a human God whose chosen creatures were- big surprise- humans (male ones for the most part.) Essesntially, man ceased to worship nature and the cosmic order and started worshipping himself. Even better, he had the illusion of serving a 'higher power' to stroke his sense of piety and faith, (which I see as essentially little more than spiritual heroin.) 2-3 thousand years later we have modern civilization and we're trying not to think about what's gonna happen when our population hits 12 billion. Mother Earth, so to speak, now has cancer. Just as sickness creates disequilibrium in the body, so we create it in our global environment. We are the tiny flaw in the fractal pattern that is threatening the whole structure.

Phew time to put a cap on it for now, hope i've done a successful job communicating there.

 

[swilow]

I thank god every day that I was never taught a religion when I grew up.

Forget all of your preconcieved notions and everything will make sense. I promise.

Oxymoron??

 

[Jackal]

I don't believe in a "God", a "Heaven" or a "hell".

I don't believe in a divine power either.

I do think that in some way we will be free after our bodies die.

I do give equal credence to someone's right to have a completely different opnion on the above.

SO,

Are there any bluelighters who have been dead for a few minutes who can give an answer to the op's question???

 

[BreakingSet]

seriously, this is a sweet thread.


I have come to think of theism, deities, belief in higher power, etc. to be interpretations of a vague realization that everything which is and a part of our living world is a part of a global equilibrium, the continued existance of which ultimately breaks down into basic natural laws in a fractal-type structure: basic laws naturally assuming the lowest common denominator building on each other to create progressively higher order in our world. Simple chemical reactions which began billions of years ago slowly grow and synergize until cell life occurs, which in turn evolves into multi-celled life. All the while, the same chemical laws are in place, like a song which starts as a steady pulse and retains that pulse as the song grows in complexity. This sort of 'gaian matrix' is what we call 'god', as it embodies the elements we recognize in such a matrix: eternity, cosmic order, unity, equilibrium, and so forth. 'God' is in everything, everywhere; the planet functions as a massive organism, just as we are massive constucts of cells and they of molecules and so forth. It all falls into place and will always equalize itself. At some point the human race developed the capacity to observe this in an objective context and so had to objectify it, hence, deities. Nothin wrong with deities; these days I recognize higher power in this context, but I do not believe 'it' is literally conscious of itself as per theistic beliefs.

The mistake, I believe, came when man lost touch with himself and, in the ultimate narcissism, rechristened the increasingly evasive concept of global unity as a human God whose chosen creatures were- big surprise- humans (male ones for the most part.) Essesntially, man ceased to worship nature and the cosmic order and started worshipping himself. Even better, he had the illusion of serving a 'higher power' to stroke his sense of piety and faith, (which I see as essentially little more than spiritual heroin.) 2-3 thousand years later we have modern civilization and we're trying not to think about what's gonna happen when our population hits 12 billion. Mother Earth, so to speak, now has cancer. Just as sickness creates disequilibrium in the body, so we create it in our global environment. We are the tiny flaw in the fractal pattern that is threatening the whole structure.

Phew time to put a cap on it for now, hope i've done a successful job communicating there.

That was very beautiful and thoughtful my friend. I am still playing with the belief/idea that god and love are forces, like gravity and magnetism, that permiate everything not just on this planet but the whole universe, just as gravity and magnetism exist the universe over.

I agree that mankind has lost touch with something (internal and global), but I have trouble thinking that nature makes mistakes. I believe that nature is the ultimate exprerimenteur- some of her experiments are not prone to self-sustainment and they find themselves reassimilated back into the nature filter.

I believe we are creating a flaw, but not inherently flawed; it started with the concept and actualization of agriculture and has snowballed since. We cannot domesticate or tame nature. We cannot defeat or praise it into submission to our wills. The evidence is all around us from the possible threat of prions to green house gas effects.

Current western god concepts favor a god that aligns with our contemporary lifestyles: God accepts tithings of gold (or paper money, maybe even VISA now-a-days) which is the blood of the economy that keeps the agricultural and industrial practices of our modern world alive. (interepted by phone in real life )

 

[Dondante]

This sort of 'gaian matrix' is what we call 'god', as it embodies the elements we recognize in such a matrix: eternity, cosmic order, unity, equilibrium, and so forth. 'God' is in everything, everywhere; the planet functions as a massive organism, just as we are massive constucts of cells and they of molecules and so forth. It all falls into place and will always equalize itself. At some point the human race developed the capacity to observe this in an objective context and so had to objectify it, hence, deities.

... Essesntially, man ceased to worship nature and the cosmic order and started worshipping himself.

That was communicated beautifully.