psychedelics and denial of the divine

[BristolRob]

I thought about putting up a new post saying has anyone had any near death experiences. I think I'll do this.

Liric, I really liked your comments. I'm not sure what God is but I do belive in him. Some people will regard that as naive or that I'm just satisfying a want. For me my belief is something very simple, it's more of a feeling than a belief perhaps, I just feel this thing and know it to be true.

I think atheists are agitated by those who believe, for me, it gives me a kind of peace. If I am wrong, and am deluding myself, satisfying a want to believe - then I don't mind that much, my belief does me good and gives a peace. You can't really argue with that.

 

[Dondante]

You believe in Him? That's the problem, although I might be misinterpreting you, it seems that your stuck in the rut of thinking of God in Judeo-Christian terms (as a conscious being).

And you say that it gives you a kind of peace, but then you admit in your first post in the thread, "[psychedelics give] the hollow feeling that I had somehow "sold my soul" that my soul was now lost and I would not be allowed to experience the wonders of heaven upon death." Doesn't sound like you're at peace with whatever you're current beliefs are to me. There are a lot of people here that will say they are spiritual, but not religious ... think about that. I suggest reading through this thread a few more times trying to think about God from a spiritual position, not through the terms of religion in which you were raised.

 

[Tribe]

I've never seen psychedelics as preventing me from any afterlife or the such, possibly because i don't follow the usual beliefs tho. anything that can open up my perceptions of the world and universe around me is a good thing, especially as i just see as the universe as one big organism and that we all return to the energy of the universe in the end

 

[_head_]

I would not be allowed to experience the wonders of heaven upon death... It was a scary idea but something I was convinced of at the time

Yes, the others are right, you might have simply realised that what you believed was heaven wasn't real. But your brain said to you, "Fuck that, I'm not letting some drug tell me that all my previously held beliefs are not true! No!" So then you were left with some vague kind of cognitive-dissonance feeling of emptiness.
Whereas if you go in to psychs with no properly formed beliefs, it will mold your beliefs. If you already have beliefs this molding doesn't work, it just kinda jars....... thus cognitive dissonance.......

 

[BristolRob]

You believe in Him? That's the problem, although I might be misinterpreting you, it seems that your stuck in the rut of thinking of God in Judeo-Christian terms (as a conscious being).

Is it a problem really? It's not a problem for me. I hesitated before putting "him" but I thought it was better than saying "it". I don't envisage God in a bodily form, my conception of God is consistent with the descriptions offered in this thread. I particularly like lyrics description.

And you say that it gives you a kind of peace, but then you admit in your first post in the thread, "[psychedelics give] the hollow feeling that I had somehow "sold my soul" that my soul was now lost and I would not be allowed to experience the wonders of heaven upon death." Doesn't sound like you're at peace with whatever you're current beliefs are to me. There are a lot of people here that will say they are spiritual, but not religious ... think about that. I suggest reading through this thread a few more times trying to think about God from a spiritual position, not through the terms of religion in which you were raised.

The hollow feeling I was describing was over 10 years ago during my first LSD experience. I also think that the thought I was entertaining was delusional.

My conception of God is primarily spiritual and this is given a religious context. Some people choose not to assign this context, which is fine. For me religion engenders the spiritual experience. I no longer use psychedelics and to an extent I use the religious environment in the same way some people use psychedelics - to engender spiritual experiences which I find enriching.

 

[nuke]

Well, then, uh.

 

[ElCoolMagnefico]

i had a rather interesting thought while on mushrooms last night. it made perfect sense to me that there is a god, and that we are all part of an elaborate game created by him. i thought that we are all here to complete some type of journey, and god has placed enlightening substances (in this case shrooms) to help us figure out what we have to do.

this was my first time on mushrooms and that totally blew my mind.

 

[Liric]

i had a rather interesting thought while on mushrooms last night. it made perfect sense to me that there is a god, and that we are all part of an elaborate game created by him. i thought that we are all here to complete some type of journey, and god has placed enlightening substances (in this case shrooms) to help us figure out what we have to do.

this was my first time on mushrooms and that totally blew my mind.

I sometimes entertain theories such as this one. Its definitely way out there, but the synergy of natural laws I was suggesting could be elaborated to the point where psilocybin mushrooms are present specifically for the purpose of keeping our turbocharged monkey brains in check by preventing our egos from becoming too powerful. At some point early humans in northern Africa lost access to the shrooms due to changing climates and did not rediscover them for thousands of years, when the ego-domination complex had taken hold. This notion might even be extended to suggest that should our techno-industrial lifestyle advance as far as it has in this manner, that same technology would/has allow(ed) us to discover powerful new pyschedelics such as LSD and DMT (smoked), chemicals powerful enough to deliver us from far-gone ego-worship. Way out there, but I cant help but entertain the thought.

I believe we are creating a flaw, but not inherently flawed; it started with the concept and actualization of agriculture and has snowballed since.

This is why I tend to think of the human race as a cancer in regard to the planet. Cities are like tumours the way they choke out everything around them, and the malignant nature of our exponential population growth threatens the ecosystem much like cancer threatens the body.


Thnx for the comments ya'lls

 

[_head_]

Here is a thought:
"god", in the sense of a personified deity, is simply a way of thinking about the formless and inexpressible. Just as words are only representations of thoughts, God is just an easy way to communicate the concept without lots of really vague gestures and noises and "Y'know?"s.
But then some people do get too caught up with the medium, not the message: the concept of God as a humanoid deity, with magic powers and, apparently, a penis (for some reason...... what for? Sex with saints? Is there also a Goddess?) becomes what they believe in, rather than that inexpressible formless void-force thingy thing thing, which was the whole point in the first place and God was just a way of wording it, goddamnit....

 

[MachineGunBallad]

the divine

A cokefiend i once knew told me over some lines that drugs reveal to you what you're not supposed to see. i think that's true. drugs are a shortcut to everything: quicker thoughts, quicker learning, enhanced visual aesthetic, enhanced empathy. but of course you pay for it in other ways (the coke fiend has now been in rehab for 4 months).

to say that death reveals these things to us is beyond our comprehension. there has, however, been studies showing direct parallels between near death experiences and K Holes (i wonder if 3rd + 4th plateau trips for that matter?).

 

[BristolRob]

Here is a thought:
"god", in the sense of a personified deity, is simply a way of thinking about the formless and inexpressible. Just as words are only representations of thoughts, God is just an easy way to communicate the concept without lots of really vague gestures and noises and "Y'know?"s.
But then some people do get too caught up with the medium, not the message: the concept of God as a humanoid deity, with magic powers and, apparently, a penis (for some reason...... what for? Sex with saints? Is there also a Goddess?) becomes what they believe in, rather than that inexpressible formless void-force thingy thing thing, which was the whole point in the first place and God was just a way of wording it, goddamnit....

That's a good thought! You should read some Jacque Lacan, most people can't stand him but some of his ideas are actually a lot more simple than people believe. For example - the symbolic, realm of language; the imaginary, realm of fantasy; the real that which cannot be expressed in words.

To elaborate, the symbolic refers to the system of language - words only have meaning relative to other words i.e., no word truly has a meaning that stands alone - they all depend on eachother

the ego is an imaginary construction, as is the idea of a bodily self - a poignant moment in its construction is what Lacan calls the mirror stage, where we are presented in front of the mirror and recognise ourselves as having a cohesive body with identifiable boundries (it is interesting how psychedelics break this construction of the ego down).

the real is quite a difficult topic. It's defined as that which exists outside of language e.g., affect and trauma.

p.s., I took some freshly picked liberty caps last night and was a positive experience. Has been a while since I'd done psychedelics but was overall a worthwhile experience. I found that some of my issues werent so much resolved as emphasised - I think perhaps I did not do enough (only 20 or so). I did have a bit of a spiritual crisis though where I realised the cultural construction of religious dogma. My friend suggested it is arrogant to believe your religion is the correct one. He also said that God would be laughing at all the religious devouts and that jesus would have hated christianity. Was pretty funny at times

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Oh Jacques Lacan is the shit! He definitely ranks among one of my favorite philosophers. I had to read a good bit of him for a literary theory seminar in college, and his ideas about structuralism and the integrated whole as the only frame of reference that gives individual parts any meaning changed my entire outlook on institutions like pop culture and even academe. Many props for dropping his name, BristolRob

Early psychologsts who tried to "strip perception of all association" ran up against a brick wall, I think, because association is the basis for memory, and therefore, the basis for how we form networks of meaning to link the sensory perceptions that make up our world. Without associations, perceptions are nothing, and get ignored. That's why a baby remembers nothing of its earliest days.

One of the most beautiful and surreal things about some altered states of consciousness is they allow for pure and direct perception of stimuli, without being first filtered through the many filters of pre-established thought patterns we learn to build. They just are. It's in such rare moments that we can feel Lacan's realm of the real which cannot be expressed in words.

 

[Medatripper Tates]

then why, when i have taken acid, have i felt like i have accessed more soul?

bad trips definitely feel like you have lost your "soul" (if you want to call it that). i prefer to call it love and energy. my first bad (good) trip on acid showed me how shallowly i have been living my life - not being receptive of love, holding myself back from experiencing the good things in life. it showed me my barriers, and how to let them dissolve and receive energy, love, or soul.

during this bad trip, i couldn't think and there was no memory of anything. i had no identity, didn't even know my name. i felt like you did, maybe even worse. after that trip, i was pretty fucked up for a while. i closed myself off from the world and my friends, took up home school, and started meditating heavily to find my identity.

probably six months later i had an epiphany/realization during a meditation session. all of this energy filled me up and ever since then ive been teaching myself how to be more receptive of it, and what things hold me back from it.

anything can make you feel like you have lost your soul. people who are deeply depressed (who have never taken any drugs) feel the same way.

 

[Mind-Melt]

well, as an atheist before i experienced lsd and mushrooms, i found that they both reinforced my ideals. we are here, and that's it.


"jesus was a zombie"

 

[BristolRob]

I wouldn't say we're here and that's it; we're here and what we do affects people, that's pretty important.

Also, I agree with my friend that religion is a cultural construct and can be dangerous when we believe ours in the correct religion. However, when people say stuff like "jesus was a zombie" - that doesn't mean anything to me. It just sounds like an atheist having a "thing" about religion.

I went through quite a dark stage where i claimed to be an atheist but in reality i was resentful of God - so I couldn't have been. I was angry and felt let down - and I was directing it at something/someone.

I think jesus is misrepresented. I wouldnt want to argue that he's the son of God but if you were to give some time to reading what it is scripted that he did and said, the humility and moral code that he was supposed to have taught you wouldn't really call him a zombie.

I agreed with my friend when he was criticising catholic guilt, sexual abstinence, original sin, baptisim and the concept of hell but he also acknowledged that essentially the God concept that lies at the heart of christianity and all religions, is one of love.

 

[MasterOfDeception]

well, as an atheist before i experienced lsd and mushrooms, i found that they both reinforced my ideals. we are here, and that's it.

not to nitpick, but that's closer to agnosticism the way I perceive it.


oh, and Jesus was a hippie
(if his teachings were really said, and not fiction, that is..)

 

[Mind-Melt]

I wouldn't say we're here and that's it; we're here and what we do affects people, that's pretty important.

Also, I agree with my friend that religion is a cultural construct and can be dangerous when we believe ours in the correct religion. However, when people say stuff like "jesus was a zombie" - that doesn't mean anything to me. It just sounds like an atheist having a "thing" about religion.

I went through quite a dark stage where i claimed to be an atheist but in reality i was resentful of God - so I couldn't have been. I was angry and felt let down - and I was directing it at something/someone.

I think jesus is misrepresented. I wouldnt want to argue that he's the son of God but if you were to give some time to reading what it is scripted that he did and said, the humility and moral code that he was supposed to have taught you wouldn't really call him a zombie.

I agreed with my friend when he was criticising catholic guilt, sexual abstinence, original sin, baptisim and the concept of hell but he also acknowledged that essentially the God concept that lies at the heart of christianity and all religions, is one of love.

4 years of roman catholic education as well as roman catholic sacraments completed up to and including confirmation gives me some credential to speak about christianity. jesus wasn't misrepresented, he was misunderstood, for lack of a better word.

 

[Liric]

^You oughta eleborate on that for the benefit of those reading. I would bet Jesus was misunderstood at best or at worst his image was hijacked and exploited for the political purposes of the church.

 

[BristolRob]

4 years of roman catholic education as well as roman catholic sacraments completed up to and including confirmation gives me some credential to speak about christianity. jesus wasn't misrepresented, he was misunderstood, for lack of a better word.

Ha, fair enough. I stand corrected.

Not sure why you think he was a zombie though, hippy sounds more like it! He might even have been psychotic, or maybe just a good bloke.

 

[rm-rf]

Essentially, I posted this topic to ask whether anyone had ever heard this "myth" "tale" "scare story" whatever you want to call it - that taking psychedelics denies you the experience of divinity and heavenly bliss upon death.

I post this from personal experience as my first LSD experience was defined by the hollow feeling that I had somehow "sold my soul" that my soul was now lost and I would not be allowed to experience the wonders of heaven upon death... It was a scary idea but something I was convinced of at the time

can people be objective and scientific about devine experiences upon death?

can psychedellics deny you something that can not be scientifically quantified in the first place?

hah this idea is even sillier than strychnine.