psychedelics and denial of the divine

[BristolRob]

Essentially, I posted this topic to ask whether anyone had ever heard this "myth" "tale" "scare story" whatever you want to call it - that taking psychedelics denies you the experience of divinity and heavenly bliss upon death.

I post this from personal experience as my first LSD experience was defined by the hollow feeling that I had somehow "sold my soul" that my soul was now lost and I would not be allowed to experience the wonders of heaven upon death... It was a scary idea but something I was convinced of at the time

 

[nuke]

This is going to be hippish, so forgive that.

I think the problem is the concept of nirvana. Everything in life cycles around poles, and if you go around one way enough you'll meet up at the other. Things like love and hate, pleasure and pain, are essentially the same thing, very intense emotional feelings, and they wouldn't really exist without eachother. There's a big concept in religion that if you live through this life and its bullshit, that you'll be rewarded on the other side with an eternity of euphoria... But doesn't that sound boring, if not senseless to you? Our fragility and ability to feel one way or another is part of what makes us alive and our lives worth living.

So, what you are struggling with may not be that heaven has been taken away, but that it's something you are no longer convinced of.

 

[thugg]

Psychedelics taught me there is no heaven or hell for that matter to worry about.. So I guess I side-stepped that land mine.

 

[BreakingSet]

So, what you are struggling with may not be that heaven has been taken away, but that it's something you are no longer convinced of.

Along the same lines, I would say that psychedelics manifest and sometimes magnify your expectations. Maybe your ideas about heaven and hell have been in question lately? Maybe you weren't even aware that you were beginning to doubt an old believe system.

(As a side, correlative evidence would suggest that LSD [and others] actually help terminal folks cope with the death process. I believe that is one of the many medical/psychological uses for psychedelics: helping people loosen their grip on the physical m aterial.)

 

[Byrnn Grass]

Come on now. We all know that LSD is the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of God. We are all banished to a life of suffering...

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

It all depends on how you define the divine. Something tells me a lot of Hindus, provided they were mentally prepared for it, would not find a tryptamine-induced psychedelic state unlike the religious beliefs they'd always been taught.

 

[Liric]

Sounds like religious conditioning at work. My operating theory for the formation of western Judeo-Christian religion centers around the socialization and standardization of the divine, which in truth exists in all of us individually. The concept of heaven is a Christianized version of ritual ecstacy, very much like what many people attain on psychedelics. What you feel on acid, specifically that moment of visionary breakthrough, can in my belief be viewed as the true means to reach heaven and recognize the power of the soul. It was western religious thought which recast psychedelics and boundary-dissolving practices, along with all other pre-christian elements, as "evil", probably in the recognition of those elements as more valid than Christian doctrine itself.

Speaking of the Tree of Knowledge, there is a wealth of information to indicate that the concept of "forbidden fruit" was indeed derived from the ancient use of shrooms.

 

[staypuft]

Psychedelics taught me there is no heaven or hell for that matter to worry about.. So I guess I side-stepped that land mine.

yea...that was one of my realizations in my early lsd use =)

 

[BreakingSet]

Sounds like religious conditioning at work. My operating theory for the formation of western Judeo-Christian religion centers around the socialization and standardization of the divine, which in truth exists in all of us individually. The concept of heaven is a Christianized version of ritual ecstacy, very much like what many people attain on psychedelics. What you feel on acid, specifically that moment of visionary breakthrough, can in my belief be viewed as the true means to reach heaven and recognize the power of the soul. It was western religious thought which recast psychedelics and boundary-dissolving practices, along with all other pre-christian elements, as "evil", probably in the recognition of those elements as more valid than Christian doctrine itself.

Speaking of the Tree of Knowledge, there is a wealth of information to indicate that the concept of "forbidden fruit" was indeed derived from the ancient use of shrooms.

If I understand what you're saying correctly, I agree.

I enjoy saying that contemporary western christianity possesses a domesticated sense of deity. Because I'd like to think I could dream up a better god in my sleep. The current god archetype for 21century american xtianity seems much to much like an infant, infinitely powerful, throwing a goddamn tantrum (I wanted to include ferocious, but what god, or what infant isn't). That or lost in his own relection (making men in his image and all), she he it would be like that asshole in junior high school who, the day you realize who asshole really is is when you see them (and they don't knowyou see them) combing their hair in the mirror saying "fuck you man, fuck you" and making menacing faces.

 

[Dondante]

^Western religion personalizes the diety, anthropomorphizes it, even gives "him" a literal human form. It's palatable ... you don't have to do any deep meditation or real thinking. It's all laid out for you. The problem is that Western religions don't allow people to experience religion, they have to just read it in a book. Go to church, do what "they" tell you, and you're set for eternity. The idea that "God" even judges is to human of an action for me to attribute to the divine power.

BristolRob, to me, it seems like you're just beginning to broach the subject of spirituality. There are basically two roads you could take here. You'll either explore your own spirituality and reconcile your experiences with your beliefs, or you can cover up your experiences and convince yourself that you're a good Christian, you'll be saved, and in the end you'll be rewarded in heaven. Well, I guess you could just ignore the issue all together, but seems like that would make more problems in the long run.

I agree with a lot of what's been said in this thread. Good stuff. :D

 

[e1evene1even]

Essentially, I posted this topic to ask whether anyone had ever heard this "myth" "tale" "scare story" whatever you want to call it - that taking psychedelics denies you the experience of divinity and heavenly bliss upon death.

I don't think Jesus the mushrooms priest (also 'the one' anointed with TheHolyCannabis oil), Moses the Kaneh Bosm bush burner, or the Soma drinking founders of Hinduism (I could go on and on...) would agree with that assertion. In fact I would say if I had to make a definitive statement on the subject, the exact opposite is more likely to be true.

 

[Youkai]

This is going to be hippish, so forgive that.

I think the problem is the concept of nirvana. Everything in life cycles around poles, and if you go around one way enough you'll meet up at the other. Things like love and hate, pleasure and pain, are essentially the same thing, very intense emotional feelings, and they wouldn't really exist without eachother. There's a big concept in religion that if you live through this life and its bullshit, that you'll be rewarded on the other side with an eternity of euphoria... But doesn't that sound boring, if not senseless to you? Our fragility and ability to feel one way or another is part of what makes us alive and our lives worth living.

So, what you are struggling with may not be that heaven has been taken away, but that it's something you are no longer convinced of.

thats fucking beautiful and true.

 

[gloggawogga]

I thank god every day that I was never taught a religion when I grew up.

Forget all of your preconcieved notions and everything will make sense. I promise.

 

[divinorum]

Speaking of the Tree of Knowledge, there is a wealth of information to indicate that the concept of "forbidden fruit" was indeed derived from the ancient use of shrooms.

i read somewhere on the internet this summer that there is a book that theorizes that Jesus was an advocate of some psychadelic drug, and that the Sadduccees and Pharisees etc. were trying to keep it to themselves and not let the less powerful people get to it.


As for the original question, I was an atheist when I started psychs. I haven't done many and not for very long (shrooms once, salvia four times since this june), but I'm still atheist. I would be lying if said my ideas of divinity hadn't changed. Now I believe that the true divinity is in our souls. Not souls, i suppose, but some really powerful notion like that that we can't really put our fingers on. The brain is so complex and the reality of the world is so false that it seems to me that there is something in the unseen connection between people's inner-beings or whatever is where true and pure reality (divinity?) is.

 

[Church]

If I had to sum up into one word what psychedelics have taught me, I would easily have to say: UNLEARN

 

[the seeker]

Psychedelics taught me there is no heaven or hell for that matter to worry about.. So I guess I side-stepped that land mine.

psychedelics have taught me and many others precisely the opposite. as the saying goes "To fathom hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic".

i guess the fact that two people can take a drug and both believe it has shown them "the truth" but reach opposite conclusions about what the truth is, just goes to show you how unreliable psychedelic insights are and how these drugs have a strong propensity to make people delusional.

 

[nuke]

No, it's all the same truth, because it's all the same thing.

Aside from that, delusion is a property of innumerable sober people as well. It was not too long ago we insisted the sun revolved around the Earth.

 

[Fishface]

If I had to sum up into one word what psychedelics have taught me, I would easily have to say: UNLEARN

Nicely put %)

If someone raised in a Christian or Muslim framework experienced an epiphany through psychedelics, they may well feel that they have stepped across some frontier they have no 'right' to - that it's something they understood to only occur on death, and therefore feel they have 'transgressed' and therefore be denied it in due course.

Bless'em

 

[Fishface]

i guess the fact that two people can take a drug and both believe it has shown them "the truth" but reach opposite conclusions about what the truth is, just goes to show you how unreliable psychedelic insights are and how these drugs have a strong propensity to make people delusional.

I don't think that is exclusive to psychedelics.

 

[fryingsquirrel]

I was an atheist before I tried psychedelics, and after hundreds of trips I still am. Which is not to say I haven't had many profound experiences, but they usually have to do with insights into myself or my relationships. Great thread, by the way.