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Psychedelic Glossolalia

Perhaps icaros are a form "psychedelic glossolalia"? Cultures with a long, unbroken history with plant entheogens probably have a much better understanding of this phenomenon.

McKenna's ideas on this subject are also quite interesting. I know he's discussed it at length, I just don't remember which talk it was.
 
Here's what a quick search turned up for McKenna:
"....There is something going on with these compounds that is not part of the normal presentational spectrum of hallucinogenic drug experience. When one begins to experiment with one's voice, unanticipated phenomena become possible. One experiences glossolalia, although unlike classical glossolalia, which has been studied. Students of classical glossolalia have measured pools of saliva eighteen inches across on the floors of South American churches where people have been kneeling. After classical glossolalia has occurred, the glossolaliasts often turn to ask the people nearby, "Did I do it? Did I speak in tongues?" This hallucinogen-induced phenomenon isn't like that; it's simply a brain state that allows the expression of the assembly language that lies behind language, or a primal language of the sort that Robert Graves discussed in The White Goddess, or a Kabbalistic language of the sort that is described in the Zohar, a primal "ur sprach" that comes out of oneself. One discovers one can make the extradimensional objects -- the feeling-toned, meaning-toned, three-dimensional rotating complexes of transforming light and color. To know this is to feel like a child. One is playing with colored balls; one has become the Aeon...."

On the develpement of language:
"The third and final factor, then, which pushed these mushroom-using primates into a position of ascendancy, is [that] psilocybin at the psychedelic dose level actually stimulates the areas of the brain that are concerned with the production of language, so you get spontaneous glossolalia, spontaneous bursts of modulated syntactically structured sound, and I believe probably that language was invented long before meaning as a kind of abstract exercise around the camp fire, that these homonoids and protohomonoids were doing for each other's amusement."

Hmm. McKenna's discussion is interesting. I wish he would expound on how psychedelics stimulate the areas of the brain that are concerned with the production of language or provide some kind of theory though. Maybe he does in other writings? Also, "bursts of modulated syntactically structured sound" is a fair enough description of most neologisms, but what of what I've been calling native language xenoglossy (the spontaneous expression of intelligible words in one's native language)? This later category seems to require the incorporation of meaning and grammar, and in my case understanding too, as it seems to have been evoked in response to a question and not just spontaneously. Beyond this, he seems to indicate that psychedelic glossolalia is an artifact of "experiment with one's voice", as though by humming bars you might start spontaneously forming nonsense words. This is fascinating if I'm reading him correctly; however, most of the anecdotes coming out of this thread indicate that what is said is a direct extension of what is being felt or experienced in the psychedelic state, rather than an unexpected modulation of a song or "voice experiment".

Undoubtedly you're right about cultures that have historically used entheogens having insight into this phenomenon. Maybe I'll see what I can find. I just worry they will all have different interpretations, and that those interpretations will be heavily influenced by religious dogma.
 
Thanks for the video link. I appreciate that, but I also feel that recourse to supernatural worlds and metaphysics is unnecessary to explain what we’ve been talking about. To me, the source of psychedelic transcendence lies in the ability of these drugs to create distinct thought patterns and phenomenal experiences that are impossible to create using endogenous neurotransmitters. I think much of what we perceive as intelligence or autonomy in these psychedelic worlds--the very properties we use to ascribe them some kind of separate ontological status--are misinterpretations of sophisticated subconscious conversations we hear murmuring from the antechamber to our own conscious minds. As recent research suggests, I think we’ve just vastly underestimated the complexity, eloquence, and force of those conversations. The goal of using psychedelics for me then is not to enter into another world or higher reality, but to explore and understand the vast scope of possible conscious experience from within the mind.
 
psood0nym said:
The goal of using psychedelics for me then is not to enter into another world or higher reality, but to explore and understand the vast scope of possible conscious experience from within the mind.
Click to expand...

How can you understand mind when viewing through mind? Expanding one's consciousness will give you access to this understanding, more so than when perceiving through ego consciousness.

It is like a bug in a rug trying to understand the nature of the rug. Not going to happen, the bug must transcend the rug in order to fully understand the rug.
 
I understand what you're saying, but remember my interpretation of the original glossolalic phrase "Where is the scarecrow. Under the carpet, felt fingers thatched your armpits":

"...there is some evidence that the response is truly an answer of sorts and not just a collapsed galaxy of semantic associations. A scarecrow is a façade after all, and the response to the question “where is sensation” is “where is the scarecrow?” suggesting that the response question is a rhetorical one. The deeply inter-associated jabberwocky that follows seems to be a demonstration of the dense network of compounding associations that lies under the surface (the carpet) of my thoughts about sensation, which, taken together with the first sentence, it suggests are ultimately merely associationistic or at best analogical, and whose philosophical "fingers" touch and work with nothing deeper than their own associationistic framework itself. "

If we hold the interpretation of native language xenoglossy as meaningful metaphor as true, then it appears that a non-conscious aspect of the mind is "aware" of the limitations you speak of and is capable of relaying that idea metaphorically to "ego consciousness". This communication all occurs within the mind. But it occurs through the conscious analytical interpretation of the behavior of a non-conscious aspect of it rather than through a wholly direct experience. That is what I mean when I say I want to learn from within the mind. It's a matter of restraining my interpretation of my experience to what there is at least some evidence for existing in the conscious and non-conscious mind. This preference comes from the fact that I have no reason to believe I can expand my consciousness beyond it, i.e. evidence, to anything else. If I were to believe that I could extend my consciousness beyond ego consciousness into some kind of metaphysical framework independent of that ego consciousness (AND come to a semi-reliable conclusions about such a realm), but it wasn't true, I could spend an entire lifetime chasing down blind alleys and deluding myself, all the while passing up real, possibly important psychological insights that I could have had if only I had restrained my belief and focused. For me that's the danger of prematurely jumping into the alluring and unfettered arena of supernatural interpretations. I prefer an incomplete but supported or probable understanding to a comprehensive but likely false one. And so far the approach has been fruitful, intellectually and in how it enriches my life and psychedelic experiences. If I'm wrong, I'll have eternity to figure it out when I'm dead. But for now I'm interested in what I can learn about this world.

Beyond this, by experiencing novel thoughts and sensations partially undergirded by molecules acting like non-endogenous neurotransmitters we do transcend the mind. At least insofar as our minds are an average range of thought patterns established through the natural functioning of endogenous neurotransmitters at average levels that is.
 
Your interpretation is very complex, just as is the mind. I keep on the path of simplicity. All of our words are a mere creation of the ego. Awareness is transcendental of thought and ego. Interpretation and expression of experience only takes away from the experience itself - which is awareness and understanding. We are only deluding ourselves when we build a wall of words around our experiences. Maybe we are on two totally different pages.
 
Anyone mention that the phenomena described isn't glossolalia? Glossolalia is typified by moaning, screech, howling, "speaking in tongues" sounds; unless I'm wrong ;). I be no expert... no suh. There are a lot of formal thought disorders.
 
It is amazing to see another human channel a higher intelligence. To see a completely different personality speak through him, and speak so much (books worth) with such clarity is utterly mind-blowing. This is where the real meat is at.
 
Pimp Lazy said:
Anyone mention that the phenomena described isn't glossolalia? Glossolalia is typified by moaning, screech, howling, "speaking in tongues" sounds; unless I'm wrong ;). I be no expert... no suh. There are a lot of formal thought disorders.
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This thread has covered a wide range of automatic and quasi-automatic (strongly compulsive) vocalizations brought on by psychedelics. What I personally have been talking about is psychedelic native language xenoglossy, or an automatic vocalization of intelligible language in one’s mother tongue induced by a psychedelic. Dondante describes something similar in post #10 also related to ketamine. Many others have talked about their experiences with neologisms, and we’ve managed to draw some parallels between them and my experience of xenoglossy. In post #22 I quote McKenna’s distinction between “classical glossolalia” and “psychedelic glossolalia”, where psychedelic glossolalia is revealed to be a much less dramatic phenomenon.

I used “glossolalia” in the thread title simply because it’s a semi-recognizable term. I also think classical glossolalia or “speaking in tongues” is the least fascinating of all these phenomena because you can’t analyze gibberish or, usually, ask the person what their subjective experience of classical glossolalia was, as it’s usually forgotten. Contrastingly, sentential native language xenoglossy with subjective recall can be mined for meaning (or lack thereof) at the level of words, the level of sentences, from the context in which it occurs, and through the introspective reports of the experiencers themselves, with each additional measure corroborating or contradicting the interpretation of the others in the service of a particular interpretation of the phenomenon in its entirety.
 
I can dig that. It would seem that classical glossolalia and the psychedelic variety have similar brain activity with some overall but not the same areas, the same areas of the brain to differing degrees, or are different functions entirely. But gaining meaning out of them? Are you thinking of it as gaining new insight from the extreme end of abstraction or even randomness? I know that anything can trigger anything else in regard to memories. The human brain is not a flawless system.

I find ramblings interesting and have recorded my own stream of thought style poetry or ramblings when tripping or when being crazy. Being bipolar my brain may be geared towards more abstract thinking anyways. I'm an musician/artist so abstraction is my forté. Musicians have larger corpus callosums allowing quicker recall of varying abilities concurrently. There are a lot of factors that determine thought and those factors certainly contribute different symptoms/attributes to the condition.

However, my drug addled brain just thought of something. I watched a documentary about DMT and in one section of it an anthropologist travelled to Peru and partook of some snuff with a jungle tribe. The tribe takes snuff to learn songs of protection from the spirits that visit them when they take the snuff. They sing these eery songs that are not in their own language. The anthropologist remarked after he had taken the snuff that the songs sounded natural to him now and he could sing the words correctly where as he had found it impossible when not on the snuff. Maybe he was relaxed and found some confidence or maybe he had more time to learn how to say the words OR maybe spirits taught him or MAYBE there are inherent sounds that are sound naturally good to humans. I've always thought Jimi Hendrix was so expressive because when he was playing less riff based stuff and really putting together truly new melody and rhythm it sounded like a controlled scream. These intrinsic, soulful communications. You hear someone laugh you know what it means. All this assuming the emotions are genuine. But I find glossolalia interesting because people are trying to communicate and everything's going wrong, but there is emotion (in particular) that needs to be expressed.

Peace,
PL
 
Medatripper Tates said:
And when we become so engaged in our thoughts, we fail to know what we're swimming in.
Click to expand...

That's more of a danger of meditation or worry. A thought disorder is more so about how input is processed and they are tied to language because that is a telling sign of how thoughts are becoming disordered.

PAX,
PL
 
When I found this sample I was truthfully a bit freaked out. It is Terrence McKenna talking about the DMT experience. and how he was forced to just start talking in a different language that felt so good and natural.

I've seen people do it on other drugs and I've done it lots myself. its almost like you really are communicating with another person tripping in this "ancient language"

It's not just DMT that makes you do it, but it certainly does help. I don't condone this, but you can actually get it from any near death experience. I like to initiate it on high dose MDMA after the peak, using weed, ketamine and nitrous. And holding as many bulbs in as you can without breathing any oxygen inbetween bulbs.. just exhale and do another and hold in for a minute..... I will repeat this though, there is possability of small amounts of brain damage from oxygen deprivation though, since on nitrous and other drugs you can not breathe for much longer periods, and as soon as you reach past the "pass out" period of 3 minutes of no oxygen and you are still conscious, this is when it happens. your body goes into a kind of shock or something, thinking your dying, and may be releasing DMT and other neurochemicals. [Note: you probably dont even need the K but it sure does help. You can even reach the states on speed comedowns as well with lots of weed and nitrous]

Listen to the sample:

HERE


Now to most peeople this will just sound like a retard making noises, but to a few people they might have an idea of what I'm talking about.. the tones, the difference between pitches and stuff... the way the words roll off your tongue.. your bottom jaw position stays pushed out, and lots of other weird facial muscles and tongue stuff.. Am i as insane as the McKenna brothers and schizophrenic or has anyone else experienced this?
 
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^Glossalalia (speaking in TONGUES) is very common on psychedelics, particulary (in my experience) the -DMT drugs. It could easily be a type of dyskinesia type thing; or it could be the elves speaking through you. As you were...
 
lol, i talk like that sometimes when i'm really pilled up, like, munted. i send messages to my friends and they're like "what the hell was that message you sent me last night?" i sent one which i can kind of remember it was like "jhaaan. k?" =D

Language of the Munts?
 
^ thanks, we'll take it, although I have nothing particular to offer right now

here is a study about glossolalia (speaking in tongues) in a Christian religious context. the gist of it, if i recall correctly (didn't read it tonight) is that the parts of the brain that are active are the parts that process language which might tend to indicate that there is real language/meaning being conveyed.
 
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