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Psychedelic Glossolalia

psood0nym

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Joined
Dec 1, 2005
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The Nature of Psychedelic Glossolalia?

Last weekend, 25 mgs of intramuscularly administered ketamine during the comedown of a 4-ho-DMT/4-ho-NMT trip had me surprisingly incapacitated, and in a philosophical mood. I’m wondering, “Why is sensation at all?” Then I ask, “Where is sensation?” At first it seems this second question can’t make sense, and then, in an almost irresistibly insistent flurry of sensations and images, I spit out the code:

“Where is the scarecrow? Under the carpet, felt fingers thatched your armpits.”

The response seems at first nonsensically comedic, but even my shallow analysis quickly reveals rich associations between its elements. These associations are predominantly drawn alone the lines of the fabric textures and coverings I had just felt the general sensations of (carpet, armpit hair, and felt), and overlaid patterns similar to those I had just envisioned (the straw bundle of the scarecrow’s body, the matted hair of the armpit, the pressed fibers of felt, and of course, thatching is a process of overlaying fibrous materials like straw with layers of further material to produce a covering, usually a roof). Additionally, a thatch, as a noun, is a tuft of hair, and hair is a body covering. Armpit hair is a thatch of hair under constant pressure from the weight of an arm. Felt is hair or other fibrous material fused into a fabric by matting it and applying pressure. The essential component of a scarecrow’s disguise is traditionally, and as I envisioned it, a felt hat that covers the top of its head, like a roof for its body. My memories of all these textural sensations are principally those I recall from having felt them with my fingers.

These sentences are ejected out of me after ~6 seconds of intense aesthetic sensations that follow the posing of the question. The various sensations feel as though they are being wrung together and fused under intense pressure (like the fibers that constitute felt). The combined sensations seem to overflow my mind and spill out in words, words that are a direct evocation of the fused sensations themselves. The sheer speed that such an elaborate array of associations is drawn in with, coupled with the dense associationistic compression of the sentence, is fascinating to me. It suggests that under certain conditions the human brain is capable of radical syntheses of mental contents, that these highly energetic syntheses could perhaps be studied from their output in intelligible language, and that such study may offer a new perspective on the psycho-spiritual states glossolalia is normally associated with.

Beyond this, there is some evidence that the response is truly an answer of sorts and not just a collapsed galaxy of semantic associations. A scarecrow is a façade after all, and the response to the question “where is sensation” is “where is the scarecrow?” suggesting that the response question is a rhetorical one. The deeply inter-associated jabberwocky that follows seems to be a demonstration of the dense network of compounding associations that lies under the surface (the carpet) of my thoughts about sensation, which, taken together with the first sentence, it suggests are ultimately merely associationistic or at best analogical, and whose philosophical "fingers" touch and work with nothing deeper than their own associationistic framework itself.

What are your thoughts on glossolalia? Have you experienced intelligible language psychedelic glossolalia (xenoglossy) that you’ve since analyzed? If not, many more have experienced the sudden evocation of neologisms (nonsense words that have a special meaning for the speaker) on psychedelics, and I would encourage any who have retained memory of the formation of these words to give their input as well. My first neologism was “sa-mast-tyerd” during an LSD and cannabis trip when I was a teenager. Its profound meaning: the sensation of viewing your two friends talking to one another and seeming to be an alligator and a flashing red pepper respectively.
 
Nothing to be afraid of, the scarecrow is gone.
Takes some time to get used to.
But suddenly you really really do, and things start tripping like a natural pulse, steady influx of lsd from the mind's eyeball, the sky fluid and shifting the wind has me gifting, you with a song and a dance and heart, you with a rip and a roar and a start, moving the lawn of what was previously a thong!
 
It has something to do with the entities one can see while on intense psychedelic trips....the need for them to be there, to represent something that is real and can be applied emotions, thoughts, and mental states like our own.

ps sensations are located in your brain.
 
psood0nym said:
“Where is the scarecrow? Under the carpet, felt fingers thatched your armpits.”

very poetic.
smile.gif
 
samadhi_smiles said:
It has something to do with the entities one can see while on intense psychedelic trips....the need for them to be there, to represent something that is real and can be applied emotions, thoughts, and mental states like our own.

ps sensations are located in your brain.
So you're saying xenoglossy is a linguistic anthropomorphization of ineffable psychedelic entities into quasi-intelligible speech? A desperate kind of subconscious poetry? I agree about the subconscious aspect (if that's what you're saying) because the visual and auditory language of dreams, the language of the subconscious, when meaningful, is metaphoric and analogical, just as my experience of xenoglossy was. (I think the distinction between the intelligible native-language xenoglossy and the entirely nonsensical glossalolia is an important one, as xenoglossy can be mined for meaning analytically, making its content or lack thereof verifiable).

Do you believe these entities to be mental entities, mental fabrications, or do you think they possess their own independent nature, and that phenomena like glossolalia are a kind of "possession"(the traditional view)?

Edit: Just read your post in the "DMT Encounters? Are They Real?" thread: "I have gone through some ups and downs lately but have come to the conclusion that the entities one sees on psychedelics are possibly as little as just eye candy and sometimes as much as eye candy with deep emotional content attached to it"

I partly agree about the entities themselves. But if these entities, as you frame them, are responsible for native-language xenoglossy, there must also be some significant level of intelligence informing them as well, if they are to speak in meaningful poetics that is.
 
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I remember one time, about 8 hours into an LSD trip, I was thinking back to a scene from Nightmare On Elm Street 6 which reminded me heavily of a bad trip. I knew exactly what movie it was, but when I tried to think of the name, it would come out as "Nippity Grillers" (G pronounced as a gutturally as the CH in Channukah or Chag Sameach)

I have no idea where such nonsense comes from.

And something also quite interesting. While peaking on LSD and hitting N20 balloons, I'd be hit with a whirlind of images, moving too fast through my head to analyse, but I'd be left with the phrase "Catch a wave."

The last balloon I had that night - my 10th one - after the same process kept on being repeated, I inhaled slowly. This seems to have brought on the effects much more gently and I could stop and look at each of these images flowing through my mind.

"Catch a wave" came from the vivid thought that the effects of N20 radiate through the user, they can either kind of resist them, or simply relax and let the effects lull them into a euphoria that pulls their lips into a huge grin. I thought of someone visibly sensing one of these waves of effects and conciously grabbing onto it, letting it pull them into a state of pure pleasure. I now refer to this as "Catching a wave (of N20 induced bliss)"

Other images that ran through my mind were two hands firmly pushing on a balloon and a voice going "if he pops the balloon, he dies."

The letters G and P, a disembodied shark-fin, and a plastic bag that seemed to have lips.

Good stuff.
 
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psood0nym said:
I partly agree about the entities themselves. But if these entities, as you frame them, are responsible for native-language xenoglossy, there must also be some significant level of intelligence informing them as well, if they are to speak in meaningful poetics that is.
This last comment is extremely interesting to me. The way you are construing intelligence makes it seem like these entities must be conscious in some way, if not independent entities, then some sort of compartmentalized/subconscious (conscious) entities existing within your Mind.

Well, I don't think this is how nature works usually.....notice the intelligence in the fractal patterns in snowflakes or ripples in a still pond....nature apparently abides by some awesomely powerful algorithms when in fact it is the case that no such formulas exist in reality except insofar as we can apply them to these entities. These entities may produce native-language xenoglossy as you put it, but the emergence of this type of phenomena may be more accurately construed as epiphenomena. Here our conceptual repetoire may break down, because it seems misleading to say that the epiphenomena is even being 'produced' in a teleological sense.

It is no wonder, therefore, that one is capable of having a +4 trip after taking a psychedelic hundreds of times.

I'll keep thinking about your original post, it is one of the more interesting ones I've read on here.
 
samadhi_smiles said:
This last comment is extremely interesting to me. The way you are construing intelligence makes it seem like these entities must be conscious in some way, if not independent entities, then some sort of compartmentalized/subconscious (conscious) entities existing within your Mind.

Well, I don't think this is how nature works usually.....notice the intelligence in the fractal patterns in snowflakes or ripples in a still pond....nature apparently abides by some awesomely powerful algorithms when in fact it is the case that no such formulas exist in reality except insofar as we can apply them to these entities. These entities may produce native-language xenoglossy as you put it, but the emergence of this type of phenomena may be more accurately construed as epiphenomena. Here our conceptual repetoire may break down, because it seems misleading to say that the epiphenomena is even being 'produced' in a teleological sense.

It is no wonder, therefore, that one is capable of having a +4 trip after taking a psychedelic hundreds of times.



I'll keep thinking about your original post, it is one of the more interesting ones I've read on here.

I was accepting your postulate that "it has something to do with the entities one can see while on intense psychedelic trips....the need for them to be there, to represent something that is real and can be applied emotions, thoughts, and mental states like our own" hypothetically and trying to make it fit the evidence of my own experience. I am inclined to believe that the subconscious mind--which I do believe to be intelligent, possessive of some form of its own self-reflective consciousness, and semi-autonomous--(not entities) is in ways more intelligent that our conscious minds, at least in thinking metaphorically and analogically, which are ways of thinking of no small significance. I believe my experience of native-language xenoglossy was the work of that intelligence.

This is off topic, but regarding our being nature's epiphenomenal algorithms, I think there is plenty of room left in physical and phenomenal reality to make a plausible denial of that. I think we're far more. If we are a set of algorithms, how did Kurt Godel, a human, come to prove the incompleteness theorems within his brain first, theorems that deny that such an algorithmic system could "reflect" meta-cognitively about problem solving without importing to the system a set of new axioms not contained in it? Non-algorithmic systems in nature are described as random, yet our meta-cognitions are clearly ordered. We're having this discussion aren't we? This is the essential argument of no less than Roger Penrose (in Shadows of the Mind?), who concludes a new system unknown to contemporary physics may need to be formed to understand mental phenomena, if any system can be formed at all. I prefer to not be the empty machinations of mathematics anyway, with all due respect, fuck its elegance. (Braces for deterministic, nihilistic, physicalist onslaught I'm not interested in fighting off (not you samadhi)).
 
^I think you have read samadhi incorrectly - he was saying that the algorithm is only true so long as we, as perceivers, believe it to be.

I'll get back to you in a few days about the psychedelic glossolalia bit ;)
 
I don't have time to go into much depth at the moment, but I've experienced a related trip phenomenon that many would call "possession" under the influence of ketamine at the end of a mescaline trip. I had an entire conversation in which my vocalizations bypassed conscious awareness, and were only identified retrospectively. Syntax was more or less in order, but the content was nonsensical ... involved finding the holy grail among other things. Each sentence seemed to bubble up from subconscious realms be "released" as a vocalization.

I've had a couple odd neologisms as well. ;)

But, an alligator and a flashing pepper having a conversation ... now, that's something you don't see everyday. =D
 
psood0nym said:
I am inclined to believe that the subconscious mind--which I do believe to be intelligent, possessive of some form of its own self-reflective consciousness, and semi-autonomous--(not entities) is in ways more intelligent that our conscious minds
Well, I have a problem with this argument....maybe its just the way I'm reading it, or maybe its my training in analytic philosophy, but it just does not make sense to me, no matter how sympathetic a reading I give to it. Bear with me, as I work my way through my thoughts about what you wrote....hopefully I will come to some conclusion.

Subconscious processes have absolutely no content to them, whatsoever. Subconscious processes in the human mind are more on par with processes in a computer (read not computational, but in the sense that they lack intentionality or content). How could they have content? The are, by definition, not conscious, and only conscious entities (thoughts, feelings, etc) have content.

Subconscious processes are capable of becoming conscious processes and then capable of being bearers of content (or meaning). But, not until they are conscious.

This may be parsing words, because obviously the process has affected you as it became conscious (with the help of a psychedelic drug to shift your conscious perspective or 'thought stream').

It seems to me you're getting at a compartmentalized view of cognition in order to account for the presence of 'entity-like' entities. I like that - it is an idea I can get on board with, since many (all?) other functions in our brain seem to be compartmentalized in such a way (and operate with the illusion of coherence under principles of simultaneity).

So, a psychedelic would allow one to open up to the true nature of consciousness (not subconsciousness). It can be pulled apart and dissected for meaning intrinsic to individual 'compartments' that can then be extrapolated as holding meaning for the entire whole. In this way, the 'compartments' (or entities) can be said to be conscious (and I now see where you are going with the subconscious aspect) and ipso facto, intelligent.

I like the way you think! And, for this part...

psood0nym said:
This is off topic, but regarding our being nature's epiphenomenal algorithms, I think there is plenty of room left in physical and phenomenal reality to make a plausible denial of that. I think we're far more. If we are a set of algorithms, how did Kurt Godel, a human, come to prove the incompleteness theorems within his brain first, theorems that deny that such an algorithmic system could "reflect" meta-cognitively about problem solving without importing to the system a set of new axioms not contained in it? Non-algorithmic systems in nature are described as random, yet our meta-cognitions are clearly ordered. We're having this discussion aren't we? This is the essential argument of no less than Roger Penrose (in Shadows of the Mind?), who concludes a new system unknown to contemporary physics may need to be formed to understand mental phenomena, if any system can be formed at all. I prefer to not be the empty machinations of mathematics anyway, with all due respect, fuck its elegance. (Braces for deterministic, nihilistic, physicalist onslaught I'm not interested in fighting off (not you samadhi)).
Well, there is an epistemic/mp split going on here....true the algorithms we can formulate for any system may never be 'provable' or entirely true....but I don't think that stops us from saying roughtly about a system that A>B or A&B or something similarly simple like that. My point about computations or algorithms is that they are not intrinsic to the physical system we are describing (it is precisely because we are taking a descriptive tact that they are not intrinsic....we are trying to get at what it is like). And of course we run into epistemic problems, here, because of various observer related difficulties (not to mention we are trying to describe experience or consciousness, which is inherently subjective!).

Regardless, I want to thank you for posting your thoughts...I think during the process of reading them I have gotten a little closer to an understanding of the 'thought entities' I have met on DMT.

Right on, man!
 
samadhi_smiles said:
Subconscious processes are capable of becoming conscious processes and then capable of being bearers of content (or meaning). But, not until they are conscious...

This may be parsing words, because obviously the process has affected you as it became conscious (with the help of a psychedelic drug to shift your conscious perspective or 'thought stream')...


...a psychedelic would allow one to open up to the true nature of consciousness (not subconsciousness).


I do mean a subconscious whose processes are unavailable to consciousness. In the way I qualify the term--as being “intelligent, self-reflective, and quasi-autonomous--I mean it to be understood more similarly to a very strange and intimate friend than to psychoanalytic descriptions of the subconscious. What I’m saying is that the responsive, complex and meaningful nature of the experience of xenoglossy I’ve reported would seem to require just such properties as I qualify the subconscious to have in order for it to have happened at all. Some of these properties I mentioned in the original post (its speed of response, meaningful complexity, and the fact that it seems to creatively and perceptively address the stated question--achieving a passing grade on the Turing Test for mad-poet computers maybe). This is an experience that comes after years of other experiences (mostly dream and hypnagogic visions) that were at first suggestive, and then later, after I got the hint, seemed to change tactics and become more specifically confirmational (see link to my report if you care to); so I haven’t reached this conclusion in haste after one isolated incident. It’s something I would be fairly skeptical about too had I not had said experiences. Also, I was never talking about glossalolia or my proposed explanations in relation to DMT entities specifically, but I'm glad if it somehow helped you understand them. I think psychedelics can make us conscious of normally subconscious mental events too.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=3173669&postcount=1

samadhi_smiles said:
Well, there is an epistemic/mp split going on here....true the algorithms we can formulate for any system may never be 'provable' or entirely true....but I don't think that stops us from saying roughtly about a system that A>B or A&B or something similarly simple like that. My point about computations or algorithms is that they are not intrinsic to the physical system we are describing (it is precisely because we are taking a descriptive tact that they are not intrinsic....we are trying to get at what it is like).
I’m sorry. I’m not sure what to make of this. One of us is misunderstanding something. I don’t know what kind of epiphenomenal system of conscious mind would not be ultimately computational and based on a system of axioms (whether or not the physical substrate came about organically, in its consciousness producing form, mathematics wouldn’t just describe it, it would be functionally intrinsic to it). [Edit: I understand what you mean when you say we apply algorithms to nature but they are not intrinsic to it. Regarding M-Theory, physicist Lee Smolin complains: "recent research suggests that there are, in fact, some 10^500 perfectly good M theories, each describing a different physics. The theory of everything has become a theory of anything". But if human consciousness is epiphenomenal, it is in principle possible to engineer A.I, and to truly create A.I. is to leave no physically functional mystery to consciousness. This would require a completely understood algorithmic system to underlie it. That system, by Godel's theorems, would not be capable of reflecting meta-cognitively about its own problem solving algorithms (our heuristics), without recourse to algorithms external to everything programmed into it, yet humans can. ] It is systems of axioms sufficiently complex to form an arithmetic, i.e. any that might be capable of intelligence and consciousness, that Godel’s incompleteness theorems address. I included this into the argument, courtesy of Penrose (who is quite cognizant of epiphenomenalism, physics, information theory, and mathematics), because it is a powerful argument against the possibility of the Strong Artificial Intelligence thesis, which holds that consciousness is an epiphenomenon that is fully reproducible computationally. If our conscious minds cannot be epiphenomena, then my characterization of an intelligent, self-aware, quasi-autonomous subconscious--as less of a computer and more as a person--is that much more plausible, that’s all.
 
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My first neologism was “sa-mast-tyerd” during an LSD and cannabis trip when I was a teenager. Its profound meaning: the sensation of viewing your two friends talking to one another and seeming to be an alligator and a flashing red pepper respectively.

thats awesome. something out've a cartoon.

My first acid trip I was looking at some early childhood photos. And as mind left the room and entered the pictures many new, and vivid memories came back to me. Each with a short sound, an image, and the last with a taste. I despretly tried to make sence of what had just hapened to me. but I just said one word. "chel-zish".

As I said the word slowly the exact same sequence of sensory perceptions came back to me, with decreasing intensity. The next day If I focussed on it, I could remember the pictures as I said the word.

For three days following the trip. All I could think about was this freaken word, trying to figure out what this series of tangled thoughts meant. I would randomly say it here and there...until it meant nothing to me, and it slipped from my memory. Just reading that thing with the gator and red pepper sparked my memory thanx :)
 
Psychedelic Glossolalia def. Usually drug induced verbal diarrhoea =D

Well it is in my case!
 
diche said:
thats awesome. something out've a cartoon.

My first acid trip I was looking at some early childhood photos. And as mind left the room and entered the pictures many new, and vivid memories came back to me. Each with a short sound, an image, and the last with a taste. I despretly tried to make sence of what had just hapened to me. but I just said one word. "chel-zish".

As I said the word slowly the exact same sequence of sensory perceptions came back to me, with decreasing intensity. The next day If I focussed on it, I could remember the pictures as I said the word.

For three days following the trip. All I could think about was this freaken word, trying to figure out what this series of tangled thoughts meant. I would randomly say it here and there...until it meant nothing to me, and it slipped from my memory. Just reading that thing with the gator and red pepper sparked my memory thanx :)
Thanks for bumping this!

There really seems to be some sort of parallel between glossolalia and synaethesia. As you recount here, each visual image was followed by a sound, another image, and a taste. Then this neologism was spontaneously evoked, as though the memory was too much for the sensual processing of your thalamus and its neural coding spilled into your brain's language centers.

I experienced something similar, though the sensory effects did not occur in distinct intervals as yours did. Visions and tactile textures seemed to press together in a strange sensory amalgam that insisted on being said, as though my mental phonograph stylus was riding over its groove, until I finally gagged out the words like they were some kind of intelligible verbal source code.

During a later psilocin/k trip, I eventually dribbled out the words "address gnarls" after asking myself where in mind the extraordinarily disparate elements of this particular trip were coming from. I posted about this "place" in the ketamine thread:

"It was like careening down a hill in a barrel through a weed patch of long and utterly forgotten sensations and memories. Truly discontinuous shit: the sunlit interior of a traffic cone held to my eye, the smell of a plastic shoe mat in a hotel during a flight delay, the soaked and tattered edge of a thick paper wrapper pressed against a tropical berry popsicle, all whipping against my face as I tumbled through their dense experiential entanglements: the "address gnarls", as it insistently and repeatedly named itself by highjacking my linguistic faculties. It was nearly a Borgesian Aleph--a single point through which all others are simultaneously visible--but restrained to the mind and memory."

"Address gnarls" seems to be a metaphor for a location in the mind where all the "location codes" (addresses) of the memories I was experiencing are bundled together (gnarls). Of course, this place need not be real, it could just be one explanation my brain picked out and relayed metaphorically to account for how I could be going between such diverse and seemingly unconnected sensations and memories so quickly. Either way interpretation implies a non-conscious intelligence connected with synthetic sensory and cognitive processes that expresses itself metaphorically and analogically through glossolalia.

For those skeptical of "non-conscious intelligence", I recommend "The New Unconscious" (which I'm about half way through) for a modern-day overview of the profound range of mental processes that cognitive psychology is showing can be subsumed by unconscious processes, including processes (such as working memory and motivation) that until very recently were thought to require conscious reflection to operate. Fair warning: though you can buy it at Amazon, it's meant for researchers and is very dry and dense. Unfortunately you can't find shit like it in easily digestible prose.
 
^yea

Ever since I got into ketamine, I've had more instances of assotiating stuff I learn to completely unrelated thoughts, feeling, ect. Been kinda helpful but at the same time distracting.
 
diche said:
^yea

Ever since I got into ketamine, I've had more instances of assotiating stuff I learn to completely unrelated thoughts, feeling, ect. Been kinda helpful but at the same time distracting.

Ketamine is known to do that with the ego, thing is to realize and be aware of this attachment and association. It's important to remain skeptical of anything the mind manifests.
 
Im a skeptical person, so got this in the bag.
I dont do k much more except as an enhancer to other drugs. Im thinking of trying it with 2c-i.
 
I go all out with 3.5-7 grams once every couple of months. I don't think I would do so much if this stuff wasn't so pure feeling. I've tried many different kinds of K, from friends and at music festivals but none of it compares to this stuff.

But shrooms and K and weed send me places I am afraid to tell you of. :p
 
:)
K really enhance visuals for me in combo with any sort of visual drug
 
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