Psychedelic experience vs buddhism/hinduism etc

[inSaMity]

I think that it's entirely possible that throughout the course of history, people have followed different paths and come to the same conclusion on ideals. I also think that in that same period of time, those people may have crossed paths and interacted, and possibly even shared their beliefs and moved on.

I think that trying to differntiate between which religion, belief structure, spiritual practice, or path to "enlightenment" is superior is somewhat pretentious, and shows a bit of ingorance towards the topic.

 

[Ismene]

I think that it's entirely possible that throughout the course of history, people have followed different paths and come to the same conclusion on ideals. I also think that in that same period of time, those people may have crossed paths and interacted, and possibly even shared their beliefs and moved on.

I think that trying to differntiate between which religion, belief structure, spiritual practice, or path to "enlightenment" is superior is somewhat pretentious, and shows a bit of ingorance towards the topic.

I don't really believe in such a thing as a "path to enlightenment" to be honest. The Dalai Lama is worshipped as the wish-fulfilling jewel but you don't see him and his advisors living in shacks going hungry - he takes all the fucking money he can get and lives like a king for all his alleged "enlightenment". The buddhist monks live off the backs of the labour of the peasants by exacting "tributes" and labour. Are these really "enlightened" beings that we should strive to follow?

The same goes for the Hindu's savage abuse of people they consider "lower-caste".

The advantage of psychedelics is that they have no rules or traditions - you can simply take them and have your own sacred experience. As Bill Hicks put it "All those people who created traditions, who created rules - them fuckers are dead. Why don't you start your own world while you got the chance?"

 

[swilow]

^To be fair, the Dalai Lama isn't excatly propseperous. Plus hindu caste systems- I don't agree with, but Hinduism is very racist imo.

I see little connection between psychedelics and eastern religion (perhaps Taoism is the closest to summing up the ineffeble) besides the fact that western language ie. English doesn't have the words for states of mind produced by psychedelics- by that I mean satori, samadhi, nirvana, maya, etc- and so we have borrowed them. It leads people to think that psychedelic states and strongly religio-mystical states are the same.

I don't especially like buddhism or hinduism- the Tao is very useful to me. I like to meditate (if by clsoing ones eyes and breathing) as an adjunct to my psychedelic use, and meditation to help with when I'm on psychedelics....but I wouldn't subscirbe to any main spirituality. To me, using psychedelics and paractising religion are different things that share some commonalities. Psychedelic release the gods in us, religion enthrones them in the first place.

Or something

Cool thread Ismeme...

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

good topic.

in terms of the attemptive 'definition' of enlightenment, i remember reading a buddhist describe it as being true compassion and wisdom.

so the idea of 'being enlightened' would then entitle one's self, or personal ego identity, to 'hold' this state of pure compassion and wisdom. i've also heard it said in buddhist text that enlightenment is not something one can gain, because it is in the core of each individual.

this being said, i feel there's quite a difference between the act of 'experiencing enlightenment' and 'becoming enlightened'.

recently i was reading something by a dao sage and he said that (maybe lao tzu) wisdom is understanding that you know nothing. if this is the case, then wisdom is attained through pure humbling.

adding a god into this senario makes it all a bit more metaphorical. most prominent religions encorporate a sense of god living inside of everyone, in some sense or another. in hindu terms there are three chakras (tien derre? sp) which are directly connected to god, the third eye, the solar plexus, and the heart. the metaphorical representations of these chakras give support to these being 'infinite' sources of energy, the third eye being one's understanding and interpretive output, the heart being one's empathetic connectedness to one's surroundings and the solar plexus being the point where the energy is drawn in.

in christian terms the holy spirit is said to live in everyone, and as stated above, buddhist believe the enlightenment is at the core of one's self not out somewhere at the end of an adventure.

considering all of this as being a root definition of enlightenment....i picture the process of becoming enlightened is to allow one's 'inner god' to shown through the body and being. (metaphorical the inner god could be an inner light, and thus enlightenment entails allowing one's internal pure illuminatino to flow out of them) this coincides the buddhist, daoist and hindu ideals of 'enlightenent' and the potentials and effects of achieving such.

the illumination of one's chakras and the opening of energy passageways in the body ultimately leads to a more full and 'bright' aura, or energy emmision. physically in terms of well-being, and energetically spiritual onensess.

the development or purification of one's energy (or even habits, physically speaking), be it through psychedelics, meditation, fasting etc, ultimately will aim one towards an 'enlightenment' of mental and energetic processes. the true quest of purification and realization, regardless of how long it takes, will force one's ego into a particular development through realizations. by this occurance, as one's development purifies, one's self and understanding of one's development and one's surroundings purifies.

physically speaking as we grow and learn we become smarter, seeing as though this process of growth is inevitable on all levels, what one considers an unnecessary habit, or an unnecessary personality trait, one 'leaves behind' or grows past it. this is how our energy functions in more subtle ways, once one realizes a problematic area (habit or lack of understaing) one moves towards fixing the problem.

the quest for enlightenment is the quest to purify and neutralize one's self. if god or enlightenmet is dwelling in the individuals to start with. so the self who is enlightened is the self who can allow 'god' or 'truth' to shown through from the core of his being, and thus nothing is held at all, and enlightenment becomes the tangible immaterial or the material intangible (the nothingness in everything and vice versa in dao terms). only an illumation, of truth which shows through one's self, and thus one's actions. an illumination which was always there being covered and smothered by one's self and one's actions.

 

[unsui]

from my experience, the psychedelic state has provoked an interest in learning about the direct experience i had through texts of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. enlightenment in my eyes is something we spiritual beings strive for (not necessarily "strive" but you get the idea) our entire lives. as thoughts said the quest is to purify one's self, and i believe that concept is held in Hinduism. meaning that the quest for enlightenment is returning back to our original (pure) state per se, where there is no boundaries or limitations - where everything is infinite and there truly is no "self" to be viewed.

it's important to be aware of this oneness (where there is no self) and realize it. but one must not cling to the concept or one's "self" can't really survive in today's world/society. once we realize oneness and separation, we simply become neutral between the 2 realities, not clinging to either concept (or perhaps integrating them both at the same time). be aware and still (empty) and that is enlightenment. but then again, i am a skeptic, so is it really enlightenment? or will death present me this nirvana?

 

[Ismene]

I don't especially like buddhism or hinduism- the Tao is very useful to me.

Good point swilow, I'd forgotten about the tao, there's a lot of sense in that.

I've just been reading that book "zig zag zen, buddhism and psychedelics" and got a bit pissed off at all these buddhists pontificating that "it's either my way or the highway"

 

[B9]

I've just been reading that book "zig zag zen, buddhism and psychedelics" and got a bit pissed off at all these buddhists pontificating that "it's either my way or the highway"

Yeah I read that & got a similar vibe from some of the contributors - fortunately not all of them tho.

 

[swilow]

It must be remembered though that Buddhism is more of a doctrine then pure religion. To be a buddhist isn't to believe in something as such, but to act as something, through both physical and mental disciplines.

Hinduism is polytheistic even though it is accepted that there is but one god with many faces; to me, it fits the billing of religion as it has dogma, preconceived notions that will not change, rituals etc. I also fing the Bhagavad Gita to be a really odd metaphor; I can't see much in basing a religion on the travails of warfare, even if it is symbolic.

Taoism/Zen buddhism is where its at for me. I rather pick and choose bits from various religions; I was raised by a reigious father and so have my good old christian 'morality'- but my experience leads me very far from the doctrines of it. I still pray, but I tend to direct my thoughts towards the earth the mother instead of a masculine overlord. My religion is about love, peace and calm, friendlyness, living, honesty and strength. They are the qualiteis I wish to examine in the world....the Void, that will come regardless, and I or we will examine it without blinkers on then.

 

[Ismene]

Yeah I read that & got a similar vibe from some of the contributors - fortunately not all of them tho.

True, you can always rely on Terence Mckenna

 

[underground_troll]

I thought that Huston Smith summed it up pretty well in his article "Do Drugs Have Religious Import?", with the conclusion that drugs can sometimes produce authentic religious experiences in some people, but it is by no means certain that they'll produce religious lives.

 

[kaskelot]

I do not see the need to hook experiences to thorns on specific systems of belief.

In doing that, the one who does shows nothing to h*s peers but h*s own beliefs about that specific system. Except as a preaching to the choir, that is, others contextually believing the same things, it has no value.

It takes years to grow and mature into any kind of esoteric enlightenment, and no psychoactive substance ever can replace those years of daily puja, prayer, and all other practice required by the great religions great teachers in these matters.

Psychoactives can help in the process of creating a esoterically able personality, the preparing for transmutative striving through realities, as can MDMA very quickly help a person in the process of forgiving parents and others.

Mystics are humans that have achieved exactly that which humans are supposed to achieve with and within life, and most religions, all that I know of, claim to teach and practice just that. If a psychoactive substance makes a person more developed and pious, but no less empathic or cognitively able, then it is of course to be considered a holy tool to that specific person in that specific context by that person.

And all others around that person could and should ask for all kind of proof necessary of that holy tool being effective, and that person shall present it.

 

[swilow]

It takes years to grow and mature into any kind of esoteric enlightenment, and no psychoactive substance ever can replace those years of daily puja, prayer, and all other practice required by the great religions great teachers in these matters.

What, because the holy men say so? Whatever. Enlightenment- what is it? Who cares? Its not piety thats for sure.

You'll note that the holy men of shamanic cultures utterly do not believe that- they KNOW if you drink enough ayahuasca you will have visions and experience some form of 'enlightenment'....

I'm pretty anti-hinduism. It makes no sense to me. The caste system of India is disgraceful- a young girl of the lowest caste was recently burned alive for simply walking in the way of one of the members of the higher caste's. She has lived, fortunately (maybe??)...but any religious system that divides people up according to appearance is utterly flawed to me. Krishna can eat Arjuna's dick as far as I'm concerned.....

 

[Changed]

Enlightenment isn't something you reach by traveling down a path over the course of years or lifetimes... Englightenment is sitting in your lap, right now. It's just a matter of whether you are looking or not.


I got turned onto Buddhism through psychedelics, but the experience of meditation and a psychedelic trip cannot be compared.

 

[tobala]

... I've just been reading that book "zig zag zen, buddhism and psychedelics" and got a bit pissed off at all these buddhists pontificating that "it's either my way or the highway"

When one tires of the pontificators' attachments to their methods, the highway can be a valid path to enlightenment... %)

 

[kaskelot]

What, because the holy men say so? Whatever. Enlightenment- what is it? Who cares? Its not piety thats for sure.

You'll note that the holy men of shamanic cultures utterly do not believe that- they KNOW if you drink enough ayahuasca you will have visions and experience some form of 'enlightenment'....

I'm pretty anti-hinduism. It makes no sense to me. The caste system of India is disgraceful- a young girl of the lowest caste was recently burned alive for simply walking in the way of one of the members of the higher caste's. She has lived, fortunately (maybe??)...but any religious system that divides people up according to appearance is utterly flawed to me. Krishna can eat Arjuna's dick as far as I'm concerned.....

Read again. It says "esoteric enlightenment" in my post, not 'post-order fuckin' fake happiness out of the ass of an alleged holy man'.

You might want to read up on shamanic cultures. They do not use ayahuasca, since they have very limited trade with the Americas. If you slow down a bit, you'll note that your post is pretty naïve and actually it doesn't comment my post as much as it seems you intended to do.

If something does not make sense to you, you should study harder. I fail to see why you are against anything on the premise that you do not understand. It seems immature and irrational.

 

[swilow]

Nice try

Read again. It says "esoteric enlightenment" in my post, not 'post-order fuckin' fake happiness out of the ass of an alleged holy man'.

You might want to read up on shamanic cultures. They do not use ayahuasca, since they have very limited trade with the Americas. If you slow down a bit, you'll note that your post is pretty naïve and actually it doesn't comment my post as much as it seems you intended to do.

Well, the shamanic cultures I was talking about are the ones that DO use ayahuasca. And I have read a lot about the various shamanic cultures of the world as well- you presume too much . Most don't employ drugs of any kind.... but usually an extreme form of concentration, movement, repeition, depreivation etc.

Anyway, I wasn't critisicisng your post; merely the idea that ritual and prayer and fasting and etc etc. leads to a 'better' enlightenmnet, as you implied. I don't agree. I think psychedelics can be used to bypass milleniums of gruelling learning....thats just my opinion.

If something does not make sense to you, you should study harder. I fail to see why you are against anything on the premise that you do not understand. It seems immature and irrational.

But- I have read the Baghavad Gita and the Upanishads (albeit shortened translations,my sanskrit is not as good as my egyptian %) and I do not agree that people are simply born as 'something' and remain that way. I do not believe in or like the Hindu caste system as it stands; lets not talk of Aryanism either. The more I read, the more I turned away.... I can't understand the Gita for starters; its about a war. I feel the same about Sun Tzu's The Art of War....I don't get it. Its not through stupidity; I simply don't resonate with the metaphors.

Anyway, you tried to make aa point, rather badly, by simply insulting me, so whatever. I feel I satisfied your arguments here.... Please refrain from calling me immature, naive, irrational and unintentional. I meant exactly what I wrote, as I wrote it.

'fucking fake happiness out of the ass of an alleged holy man' makes a good standalone sentence. :D

 

[Ismene]

It takes years to grow and mature into any kind of esoteric enlightenment, and no psychoactive substance ever can replace those years of daily puja, prayer, and all other practice required by the great religions great teachers in these matters.

Has the Dalai lama studied that stuff for years tho? And he's still living like a fucking king with tons of treasure while his people taste the sting of the lash. Surely that can't be enlightened - otherwise we might as just well say Bill Gates is an enlightened being too.

 

[kaskelot]

Has the Dalai lama studied that stuff for years tho? And he's still living like a fucking king with tons of treasure while his people taste the sting of the lash. Surely that can't be enlightened - otherwise we might as just well say Bill Gates is an enlightened being too.

Please, quote where I wrote about the dalai Lama.

And please, show your source to accurate information about "tons of treasure". It might be in place to present your idea of how you would have handled being the exiled leader of Tibet, in contrast to the current Lama.

 

[burn out]

Has the Dalai lama studied that stuff for years tho? And he's still living like a fucking king with tons of treasure while his people taste the sting of the lash. Surely that can't be enlightened - otherwise we might as just well say Bill Gates is an enlightened being too.

The Dalai Lama has said he doesn't consider himself enlightened.

 

[FreedomOfTheMind]

meditation allows one to re-enter the spiritual headspace that psychedelics give and allow one, with practice, to enter that headspace sober. Meditation is a reminder to how things truly are. Psychs give a glimpse and should be used for that sparingly (if you use them for spiritual purposes), however meditation can be done daily to help integrate the spiritual outlook attained with psychedelics. Meditation is a tool just as psychedelics are, but meditation in some ways is more effective since you can do it whenever, dont need to trip for a bunch of hours, and you dont need to take a substance to get there.