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Psychedelic experience vs buddhism/hinduism etc

Ismene

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 17, 2005
Messages
13,168
There's often a temptation to try and explain the psychedelic experience using terms and ideas from established religions such as buddhism and hinduism. I don't know whether this was originally done in an attempt to "legitimise" psychedelics but is anyone else a little uncomfortable with it?

For me psychedelics are vastly superior to buddhism etc because they give you the direct experience.

Thank you please.
 
Waitwaitwaitwait. You destroyed half the world in 3 lines ;).

1. I think you need to define (or perhaps research more, not to sound patronizing?) what you mean by "buddhism" and "hinduism". Neither of those religions, nor any another religion, has exoteric (that is, explicit and down to the word) teachings telling people how to achieve mystical experience. All such "teachings" are esoteric. Therefore, the actual religions of Buddhism or Hinduism do not guarantee enlightenment - they simply mention it, and mention examples.

2. Psychedelics never guarantee a mystical experience. Getting High ≠ Getting Enlightened. Very few people seem to have real mystical experiences on psychedelics, proof being that many of them seem to be even unaware of such things (maybe not so much here on BL, but IRL definitely). To most people, psychedelics are just a mind-fuck with pretty visuals. This is why a lot of people keep taking psychedelics over and over again compulsively and never getting anywhere. I am a proponent of Watts' "hang up" policy.

3. And this is my main point: If you compare the esoteric teachings of ALL religions, you will find that they all "say" the same thing w.r.t enlightenment or whatever you want to call it. Be it Sufism in Islam, the Qabalah in Judaism, the experiences of the saints in christianity, and other countless traditions. Therefore, the "formula" for enlightenment is tried-and-true throughout the world and history. It applies to psychedelics as well.

Neither is superior to the other - they are both things that happen spontaneously, when the time is right.
 
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well i dont want to get on too much of a rant here so ill keep it real short.

So i definitely have found many parallel themes between the psychedelic experience and the religions/philosophies of Buddhism, Daoism and Hinduism. More accurately between the psychedelic experience and their metaphysical philosophies. I dont think that ideas from the mouth of a Buddhist are any more or less valuable than ideas from the mouth of a fellow who's consumed mushrooms.

Also the religion/philosophies you mentioned are (on the whole) all about producing direct experiences of the mystical so i dont think i could agree with your statement at all. Either way everything is going to keep doing what it does whether another organism takes notice or not.

I do not think that it matters how you get there as long as you do. Dance, meditate, drum, cut yourself, starve yourself, take drugs, etc. Hundreds of way to do it, the place you get to by one method is no more valuable than the next, some are just easier to use. I would sure rather just eat a small square of paper and achieve a good chance at having a mystical experience in 12 hours than spend 40 years of my life practicing meditation in hopes to achieve a similar state.
All that is going on is already in your head, they are just methods of getting your head to operate in such a way.
 
In my own experience, using psychedelics has led me to what thus far has been a fulfilling exploration of Buddhism. I had read up on it a little bit a few years before having used psychedelics, then had a year and a half period of frequent use of various plants and compounds. Since then, I've rediscovered Buddhism and have a much firmer grasp on things like karma and the interconnectedness of things.

They both offer different things in different degrees to different people.
 
I think psychedelics can give a brief taste of enlightenment, but they don't make the user enlightened.
 
Jamshyd said:
Waitwaitwaitwait. You destroyed half the world in 3 lines ;).

1. I think you need to define (or perhaps research more, not to sound patronizing?) what you mean by "buddhism" and "hinduism". Neither of those religions, nor any another religion, has exoteric (that is, explicit and down to the word) teachings telling people how to achieve mystical experience. All such "teachings" are esoteric. Therefore, the actual religions of Buddhism or Hinduism do not guarantee enlightenment - they simply mention it, and mention examples.

2. Psychedelics never guarantee a mystical experience. Getting High ≠ Getting Enlightened. Very few people seem to have real mystical experiences on psychedelics, proof being that many of them seem to be even unaware of such things (maybe not so much here on BL, but IRL definitely). To most people, psychedelics are just a mind-fuck with pretty visuals. This is why a lot of people keep taking psychedelics over and over again compulsively and never getting anywhere. I am a proponent of Watts' "hang up" policy.

3. And this is my main point: If you compare the esoteric teachings of ALL religions, you will find that they all "say" the same thing w.r.t enlightenment or whatever you want to call it. Be it Sufism in Islam, the Qabalah in Judaism, the experiences of the saints in christianity, and other countless traditions. Therefore, the "formula" for enlightenment is tried-and-true throughout the world and history. It applies to psychedelics as well.

Neither is superior to the other - they are both things that happen spontaneously, when the time is right.

Great post. Psychs, as well as religion, serve as a guide. I don't understand what you mean by "formula". The idea of higher knowledge is present in all religions, in all cultures throughout history. However, no religion or "way" presents a "formula" that everyone can follow to find it.

The differentiation between esoteric and exoteric ideas in religion is very important. Much of the teachings of Christ, Buddha, and the like are presented to certain people. You have to know how to read religious texts such as the Dahmma and The Bible to understand them in a way that relates to esotericsm. Finding the link (or similarity) between psych. experience and religion is important.

Ismene said:
For me psychedelics are vastly superior to buddhism etc because they give you the direct experience.

Psychedelics are not a substitute for religion, and vice-versa. Just like science isn't a substitute for religion, philosophy isn't a substitute for science etc. Try and look at the big picture and see how it all connects.

Ismene said:
I don't know whether this was originally done in an attempt to "legitimise" psychedelics but is anyone else a little uncomfortable with it?

Psychedelics are and always have been legitimate. Unfortunately most people don't realize it.
 
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I wouldn't say that Buddhism and especially Hinduism (which means "the beliefs of India" literally and whose scriptures such as the Mahabhrata and Bhaghavad-Gita are about 5000 years old or so) literally "sprouted out of psilocybin mushroom cults," but based on what I learned in Inroduction to Non-Western Religions in college, our professor did say that SOMA's chemical identity was according to current academic religious conventional wisdom *probably* psilocybin-containing mushrooms. However, there is admittedly no way to prove or know this assertation for sure; it is simply the conventionally held belief among relgious academicians based on an educated guess.

My professor also taught us that Buddha actually died from eating poisonous mushrooms by mistake, although what kind of reference I could give to buttress this assertion I don't know. He was said, however, not to be angry with the person who gave him the bad shrooms but rather accepted his death peacefully.

But, back to the original topic of this thread, my assertion or thesis statement is that, yes, the psychedelic experience can indeed in certain individuals lead to eternal, spiritual (transcendental) insights or truths regarding the nature of God, life, man, and the universe, and furthermore, that these revelations or kernels of truth often resemble the teachings of the far eastern belief systems of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. After all, absolute truth is absolute, no matter how it is derived or from what source.

I will give two real-life examples to back up my thesis, both involving two individuals other than me under the influence of two different psychedelic drugs who had profound spiritual experiences that mirror teachings of the far east AND who did not and may still not know to my knowlegde of this similarity between their experiences and eastern teachings.

The first example involves an old friend of mine who smoked DMT and was engulfed in a loud, powerful, guttural OM sound, which he said was the sound produced by the birthing of new souls, which he was doing. He did not know until I told him that OM is the primordial sound of creation according to eastern teachings. I do not consider these two events to be a coincidence, but if you do as you are welcome to, remember that the probability of this particular combination of these two letters, O and M, in one syllable and occuring in two different incidences in a row is 26 times 26, or one in six hundred and seventy-six which can also be expressed as a 0.00147929 probability.

The second example I shall give comes from Ann Shulgin's "Spiritual Crisis" chapter from PiHKAL, which she wrote after ingesting 30 to 40 mg of
3,5-dimethoxy-4-methylphenethylamine hcl, a mescaline analogue. She gradually, over a period or days and then weeks, began to get higher and higher until she came into contact with a sentient, seemingly uncaring being of infinite intelligence and knowledge who simply was and simply observed and recorded everything that happened without caring about it emotionally or passing judgement. That is, Event A either occurs or does not occur, that is all, and is then analyzed and recorded for posterity. This being's indifference actually angered Ann, but little did she know--and for all I know, still doesn't know--that what she was coming into contact with bares an uncanny resemblance with what the Hindus call the Atman, or Impersonal Absolute, who watches and records everything that happens, has happened, or ever will happen and records the occurrence in the Akashic records and which I also first learned of in university before having read PiHKAL.

Miracles can and do happen, and I should know, because I've experienced several, some of which actually, believe it or not, saved my life, but they are easy to overlook and impossible to prove by human means or standards. Luckily, miracles are self-evident when they occur and, furthermore, need no proof of their existence. Like erowid says, "you cannot deny the experience of another."

I agree with Student's assertion that the means by which one struggles to achieve union (or, literally, "yoga") with the Divine (or God the Unnamable, Jehovah, Allah, etc.) are less important than the actual attainment of enlightenment, which seems to me to be an infinitely long process. Although popular culture would have us believe that going to the local gym for a fee and dancing with a group along with recorded music is what yoga is, in reality this form of aerobics yoga is or (can be) merely one form of yoga or union with the divine. There are many paths to go from Point A to Point B.

Other forms of yoga include knowledge yoga, love or devotion yoga, and karmic (or action based) yoga, and yes, for some, psychedelic or stimulant drug yoga. A combination approach can also be used, and since people have differing innate skills, proclivities, and abilities, different people will get different results from a given attempt to achieve enlightenment. For example, every time I have or had taked LSD, I experience extreme realizations of usually unsettiling truths about myself, reality, and God that I have always subconconsciously known but have somehow managed to repress. This process can be quite rewarding in the long run.

Dancing all night to bass filled, pulsating house music while under the influence of MDMA has also been a source of spiritual fulfillment for me, although admittedly of a different, more pleasurable nature, and stimulants such as methamphetamine especially can facilitate prayer, fasting, and meditation and as such are also in my opinion useful adjuncts in the quest to become closer to God, that is, more nearly enlightened. Remember, Hinduism teaches us that pleasure in and of itself is not inherently bad, just lowly (that is, there are higher aims to be had, but only after one has sated the lower desires).

I have had numerous supernatural experiences while under the influence of LSD, IV cocaine, and methamphetamine. I know that some people, such as Rhodium, have taken tons of 5-HT2a agonists and never had a spiritual experience, but this fact does not preclude its occurance elsewhere. I think you have to have absolute faith in something first before God reveals much to you, perhaps. At any rate, there is no cure for skepticism.

Because society and the people who compose it have such a low tolerance for too much truth at one time is why, I believe, compounds such as LSD have to be controlled in society's eyes. There is, I know, a whole universe out there which we cannot legally now explore but which will, eventually, I believe lead to a new Golden Age when it does become more widely practiced, a place where God and man are closer together and infinite bliss, knowledge, and life is there for the having.

Hinduism teaches that essential every human being wants three things: infinite being, infinite joy, and infinite knowledge, and furthermore, since that is what we want, then that is what we will eventually get. I believe that certain drugs can and will help us achieve these goals.

Related Quotes:

"Some people lose their faith because Heaven shows them too little. How many people lose their faith because Heaven shows them too much?"--Xorcist.

"Let the mind use the physical as planned."--the Wu-Tang Clan.

"The Tao follows only itself."--Lao Tzu.
 
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Psychedelics give you a glimpse of enlightenment and I already got the message, BUT I still pick up the phone every month to get a reminder of why I live and what it all means.

I pick up the phone periodically since it gives me a glimpse of what I work so hard to maintain and I sometimes get disillusioned with all of the bullshit of society, academia, etc and psychedelics just give me a few hour glimpse of what it means to Be and experience- to be the universe. I then go on trying to integrate that framework to my everyday existence but its difficult. Pyshcs are great for this spiritual purpose.
 
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FreedomOfTheMind said:
Psychedelics give you a glimpse of enlightenment and I already got the message, BUT I still pick up the phone every month to get a reminder of why I live and what it all means.

I pick up the phone periodically since it gives me a glimpse of what I work so hard to maintain and I sometimes get disillusioned with all of the bullshit of society, academia, etc and psychedelics just give me a few hour glimpse of what it means to Be and experience- to be the universe. I then go on trying to integrate that framework to my everyday existence but its difficult. Pyshcs are great for this spiritual purpose.

QFT--my sentiments exactly.
 
Fundamentally they are at the root similar in the respect that they are both methods that correlate with rearranging/reconstructing networks and clusters of neurons in your brain.
 
Olyn said:
I don't understand what you mean by "formula". The idea of higher knowledge is present in all religions, in all cultures throughout history. However, no religion or "way" presents a "formula" that everyone can follow to find it.
Don't worry too much about the word "formula". I was simply using it as an expression. If I had to get into details, I'd probably prefer using the word "archetypes".

The differentiation between esoteric and exoteric ideas in religion is very important. Much of the teachings of Christ, Buddha, and the like are presented to certain people. You have to know how to read religious texts such as the Dahmma and The Bible to understand them in a way that relates to esotericsm. Finding the link (or similarity) between psych. experience and religion is important.

I agree completely :)

<pyridinyl_30>: This was honestly a "tl;dr" post, but I promise I'll get to it eventually :)
 
<pyridinyl_30> said:
After all, absolute truth is absolute, no matter how it is derived or from what source.

True. That reminds me of something I read recently.

"Jesus explains that by his preaching of the esoteric doctrine he has brought men anything but peace and tranquility, and that truth divides men more than anything else, again because only few can receive truth.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me
(Matt. 10. 34-37).

The last verse is again the Buddhist idea that a man must not be " attached " to anyone or anything."-A New Model Of The Univese, P.D. Ouspensky
 
Jamshyd said:
Waitwaitwaitwait. You destroyed half the world in 3 lines ;).

1. I think you need to define (or perhaps research more, not to sound patronizing?) what you mean by "buddhism" and "hinduism". Neither of those religions, nor any another religion, has exoteric (that is, explicit and down to the word) teachings telling people how to achieve mystical experience. All such "teachings" are esoteric. Therefore, the actual religions of Buddhism or Hinduism do not guarantee enlightenment - they simply mention it, and mention examples.

2. Psychedelics never guarantee a mystical experience. Getting High ≠ Getting Enlightened. Very few people seem to have real mystical experiences on psychedelics, proof being that many of them seem to be even unaware of such things (maybe not so much here on BL, but IRL definitely). To most people, psychedelics are just a mind-fuck with pretty visuals. This is why a lot of people keep taking psychedelics over and over again compulsively and never getting anywhere. I am a proponent of Watts' "hang up" policy.

3. And this is my main point: If you compare the esoteric teachings of ALL religions, you will find that they all "say" the same thing w.r.t enlightenment or whatever you want to call it. Be it Sufism in Islam, the Qabalah in Judaism, the experiences of the saints in christianity, and other countless traditions. Therefore, the "formula" for enlightenment is tried-and-true throughout the world and history. It applies to psychedelics as well.

Neither is superior to the other - they are both things that happen spontaneously, when the time is right.

Just when I was getting nostalgic for thoughtful discussions … Great post Jamshyd. <3

It's easy to confuse the sociocultural aspects of religion (i.e. ritual and doctrine) with the rapturous roots from which all religions stem, the spiritual experience itself. It seems that, at the very least, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic lines of faith, in placing doctrine before direct experience, have made personal communion with the divine increasingly inaccessible. This likely holds true for Eastern religio-philosophical traditions as well.

According to Juan Mascaró, even 1,500-2,500 years ago, when the Bhagavad Gita was written, religion drew its adherents away from the spiritual:

“The Bhagavad Gita paints a jaded picture of some of the rituals’ more unsavory contemporary adherents, ‘who have no vision, and yet they speak many words. They follow the letter of the Vedas, and they say: “There is nothing but this.” Their soul is warped with selfish desires, and their heaven is a selfish desire. They have prayers for pleasure and power, the reward of which is earthly rebirth. Those who love pleasure and power hear and follow their words …’”

However, despite the distorted and warped image of religion that results when it's expressed through the lens of human culture, Eastern religions are grounded by some of the greatest spiritual thinkers of all time. In addition, they are excellent guides to antipodes of the mind. When someone has an unexpected spiritual experience with the aid of psychedelics, he generally reaches for something to grasp onto ... some kind of set belief system or some symbolic form of spirituality (religion) which aids in the understanding and communication of the experience. Eastern religious texts contain the vocabulary for expressing the core of the psychedelic experience.
 
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<pyridinyl_30> said:
I do not consider these two events to be a coincidence, but if you do as you are welcome to, remember that the probability of this particular combination of these two letters, O and M, in one syllable and occuring in two different incidences in a row is 26 times 26, or one in six hundred and seventy-six which can also be expressed as a 0.00147929 probability.

"AUM" is the esentially the default sound that is produced by vibration of vocal cords when the pharynx and tongue are relaxed and the mouth goes from open to closed. Also, try saying X-Z together or L-P, you can't produce sound without a vowel. In fact, the vowels are the sound. Consonants just shape the sound to form a syllable.

Sorry, but I don't even know where to start with some of the other stuff in that post. A little to much amphetamine this morning?
 
crowbar said:
Nothing makes anyone enlightened, that doesn't even make sense.

I thought that Buddhists believe if they meditate a lot they can become enlightened, or very few people or whatever; and I thought enlightenment was like ego-loss.
 
its a waking up experience, in japanese called satori (sudden enlightenment)

It can happen to a person in a psychedelic state of mind I suppose.
 
It's a baby! said:
I thought that Buddhists believe if they meditate a lot they can become enlightened, or very few people or whatever; and I thought enlightenment was like ego-loss.

It is ego-loss, among other things. Pay no attention to that ignorant comment.
 
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