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Psychedelic experience vs buddhism/hinduism etc

kaskelot said:
Please, quote where I wrote about the dalai Lama.
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I didn't say you were writing about the dalai lama, I merely offered him as an example of someone who has studied the so-called "path" for his entire life. Do you have an example of someone who has attained enlightenment through "years of study" for example?
 
FreedomOfTheMind said:
meditation allows one to re-enter the spiritual headspace that psychedelics give and allow one, with practice, to enter that headspace sober..
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I dunno, I don't think that meditation and the psychedelic state can be compared. If someone said "I meditate a lot so I should be able to take more acid than someone who hasn't meditated" I wouldn't agree.

I think this idea might have been started when Ram Dass claimed that indian holy guy he met took 900 mics of acid and "didn't notice any difference". In reality someone else who was there said the "holy man" palmed the acid and then pretended he'd taken it.
 
I think this idea might have been started when Ram Dass claimed that indian holy guy he met took 900 mics of acid and "didn't notice any difference". In reality someone else who was there said the "holy man" palmed the acid and then pretended he'd taken it.
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reference please.
 
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History has shown us that randomized double-blind placebo studies tell us absolutely nothing about spiritual experiences. Science and the wannabe science (Psychology) simply are not equipped with the proper tools to tackle these issues.

The only way you can study such things currently is the way people conduct studies in History or Comparative Religion/Literature (ie. mostly through examining chronological, thematic...etc patterns).

Ismene and Swillow: with all due respect, it seems to me that you two have not done Hinduism justice. Had you done so, you would not be referring to it as a single entity :). Also, (Ismene) I think you have some very strange preconceptions about Enlightenment, but that is another subject for another day :).
 
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Jamshyd said:
History has shown us that randomized double-blind placebo studies tell us absolutely nothing about spiritual experiences. Science and the wannabe science (Psychology) simply are not equipped with the proper tools to tackle these issues.

The only way you can study such things currently is the way people conduct studies in History or Comparative Religion/Literature (ie. mostly through examining chronological, thematic...etc patterns).

Ismene and Swillow: with all due respect, it seems to me that you two have not done Hinduism justice. Had you done so, you would not be referring to it as a single entity :). Also, (Ismene) I think you have some very strange preconceptions about Enlightenment, but that is another subject for another day :).
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i was more interested in the reference to the richard alpert thing and i don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about psychology, so i edited my post and i am going to PM you about psychology.
 
Jamshyd said:

Ismene and Swillow: with all due respect, it seems to me that you two have not done Hinduism justice. Had you done so, you would not be referring to it as a single entity :). Also, (Ismene) I think you have some very strange preconceptions about Enlightenment, but that is another subject for another day :).
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If you can point me out to a guy who has become enlightened by following Hinduism or Buddhism I'd be interested Jam.

The highest Hindu masters I've read believe that if they touch the poor guy who cleans their toilet then it makes them "unclean" and they need to go and wash themselves. Personally I don't believe that's the atitude of an enlightened being - I think that's about as far from being enlightened as it's possible to get.
 
burn out said:
i was more interested in the reference to the richard alpert thing and i don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about psychology, so i edited my post and i am going to PM you about psychology.
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An interview with the guy who was with Alpert in India when it happened called Krishna Das. He also said that the "guru" took the acid he'd palmed and put it in some indian ash and then gave it to two unsuspecting western tourists in order to convince them he was a guru. He was pretty much a con artist from start to finish.
 
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swilow said:
Anyway, I wasn't critisicisng your post; merely the idea that ritual and prayer and fasting and etc etc. leads to a 'better' enlightenmnet, as you implied. I don't agree. I think psychedelics can be used to bypass milleniums of gruelling learning....thats just my opinion.
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I would agree with you in general swilow - one thing that occurrs tho is that the virtue of patience ( unless one posesses it as a "grace") might not be so readily acheived through psychedelics than via the other practices you mentioned.

Or maybe that's just me ;)
 
Ismene said:
An interview with the guy who was with Alpert in India when it happened called Krishna Das. He also said that the "guru" took the acid he'd palmed and put it in some indian ash and then gave it to two unsuspecting western tourists in order to convince them he was a guru. He was pretty much a con artist from start to finish.
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link/source to said interview?
 
Ismene said:
If you can point me out to a guy who has become enlightened by following Hinduism or Buddhism I'd be interested Jam.

The highest Hindu masters I've read believe that if they touch the poor guy who cleans their toilet then it makes them "unclean" and they need to go and wash themselves. Personally I don't believe that's the atitude of an enlightened being - I think that's about as far from being enlightened as it's possible to get.
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Simply becasue the they are well studied and truly devoted to their faith does not make them enlightened.

Can a person really be enlightened? I'm not sure.
 
psycosynthesis said:
This is mentioned briefly in Storming Heaven. I haven't seen anything to substantiate the palming theory however.
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what specifically is mentioned in storming heaven? the palming incident is what i am asking for a reference for.
 
Jamshyd said:

Ismene and Swillow: with all due respect, it seems to me that you two have not done Hinduism justice. Had you done so, you would not be referring to it as a single entity :).
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Take it as me referring to Hinduism in the same way people refer to Christianity..... I do realise that it is not as cut-and-dry as I've made it, but to do Hinduism justice would take more space then Bluelight has :D

As to the Ram Daas thing, check out Krishna Das' website....http://www.krishnadas.com/links.cfm He wouldn't link to Richard Alperts if it was a con....that much I believe.

BTW, he looks exactly the same as Ram Das.....lol :)
 
^My point was that he doesn't, and still references Ram Dass.....which leads me to think that Ismene's claim isn't true..... I mean, everyone knows the tale of the guru who didn't trip; I wouldn't think that in only ONE instance, Krishna Dass has revealed the 'truth'....I think he would more likely have debunked and continue to do so, the entire story. Thats just my assumptions....If anything, his guru probably had such a hard stomach after eating so much Indian, the acid simply turned into a curry....Who knows?

Anywa Ismene, we've talked about this incident before- and you've never bought this one up.....:/
 
swilow said:
We may be able to find an answer.....google http://www.google.com.au/search?sou...PAB_enAU229AU229&q=Did+ram+dass+dose+his+guru
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well i looked through a good portion of that and still was not able to find a definite answer. we can say one thing for sure though and that's that richard alpert wasn't fooled into thinking his guru took the lsd when he really palmed it. here's his version of the story, i bolded the most relevant parts:

n 1967 when I first came to India, I brought with me a supply of LSD, hoping to find someone who might understand more about these substances than we did in the West. When I had met Maharajji(Neem Karoli Baba), after some days the thought had crossed my mind that he would be a perfect person to ask.

The next day after having that thought, I was called to him and he asked me immediately, "Do you have a question?"
Of course, being before him was such a powerful experience that I had completely forgotten the question I had had in my mind the night before. So I looked stupid and said, "No, Maharajji, I have no question."
He appeared irritated and said, "Where is the medicine?"
I was confused but Bhagavan Dass suggested,
"Maybe he means the LSD." I asked and Maharajji nodded. The bottle of LSD was in the car and I was sent to fetch it.

When I returned I emptied the vial of pills into my hand.
In addition to the LSD there were a number of other pills for this and that--diarrhea, fever, a sleeping pill, and so forth. He asked about each of these. He asked if they gave powers. I didn't understand at the time and thought that by "powers" perhaps he meant physical strength. I said, "No." Later, of course, I came to understand that the word he had used, "siddhis," means psychic powers.
Then he held out his hand for the LSD. I put one pill on his palm.
Each of these pills was about three hundred micrograms of very pure LSD-
-a solid dose for an adult. He beckoned for more, so I put a second pill in his hand--six hundred micrograms. Again he beckoned and I added yet another, making the total dosage 900 micrograms--certainly not a dose for beginners. Then he threw all the pills into his mouth. My reaction was one of shock mixed with fascination of a social scientist eager to see what would happen. He allowed me to stay for an hour--

and nothing happened.

Nothing whatsover.
He just laughed at me.

The whole thing had happened very fast and unexpectedly. When I returned to the United States in 1968 I told many people about this acid feat. But there had remained in me a gnawing doubt that perhaps he had been putting me on and had thrown the pills over his shoulder or palmed them, because I hadn't actually seen them go into his mouth.

Three years later, when I was back in India,
he asked me one day, "Did you give me medicine when you were in India last time?"
"Yes."
"Did I take it?" he asked. ( Ah, there was my doubt made manifest!)
"I think you did."
"What happened?
"Nothing."
"Oh! Jao!" and he sent me off for the evening.

The next morning I was called over to the porch in front of his room, where he sat in the mornings on a tucket. He asked, "Have you got any more of that medicine?"
It just so happened that I was carrying a small supply of LSD for "just in case," and this was obviously it. "Yes." - "Get it," he said. So I did. In the bottle were five pills of three hundred micrograms each. One of the pills was broken. I placed them on my palm and held them out to him. He took the four unbroken pills. Then, one by one, very obviously and very deliberately, he placed each one in his mouth and swallowed it-- another unspoken thought of mine now answered.
As soon as he had swallowed the last one, he asked, "Can I take water?"
"Yes."
"Hot or cold?"
"It doesn't matter."
He started yelling for water and drank a cup when it was brought.
The he asked," How long will it take to act?"
"Anywhere from twenty minutes to an hour."
He called for an older man, a long -time devotee who had a watch,
and Maharajji held the man's wrist, often pulling it up to him to peer at the watch.
Then he asked,"Will it make me crazy?"
That seemed so bizzare to me that I could only go along with what seemed to be a gag.
So I said, "Probably." And then we waited.

After some time he pulled the blanket over his face, and when he came out after a moment his eyes were rolling and his mouth was ajar and he looked totally mad. I got upset. What was happening?
Had I misjudged his powers? After all, he was an old man (though how old I had no idea), and I had let him take twelve hundred micrograms. Maybe last time he had thrown them away and then he read my mind and was trying to prove to me he could do it, not realizing how strong the "medicine" really was.
Guilt and anxiety poured through me. But when I looked at him again he was perfectly normal and looking at the watch. At the end of an hour it was obvious nothing had happened. His reactions had been a total put-on. And then he asked,
"Have you got anything stronger?" I didn't. Then he said, "These medicines were used in Kulu Valley long ago. But yogis have lost that knowledge. They were used with fasting. Nobody knows now. To take them with no effect, your mind must be firmly fixed on God. Others would would be afraid to take. Many saints would not take this." And he left it at that.
*******
When I asked him if I should take LSD again, he said,
"It should not be taken in a hot climate. If you are in a place that is cool and peaceful, and you are alone and your mind is turned toward God, then you may take the yogi medicine.

so apparently, alpert gave this guy LSD on two separate occasions and the second time he made certain that the LSD went into his mouth and not over his shoulder. can we trust that alpert is telling the truth? who knows? but i think we can at least rule out the notion that the LSD was simply palmed while alpert thought it had been taken.
 
burn out said:
link/source to said interview?
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I think the story comes from the book STRANGE FRUIT: ALCHEMY AND RELIGION by Clark Heinrich:

"Many people are familiar with Ram Dass's book BE HERE NOW. Ram Dass is the former Richard Alpert, who was fired from the Harvard faculty in the sixties for experimenting with LSD. His cohort Timothy Leary left Harvard at the same time. Suddenly opened up to the spiritual side of life as a result of his experimentation, Alpert set off to India looking for spiritual adepts. In the book, which he wrote when he returned to the United States, we are informed that he had with him on his journey quite a few tablets of very pure LSD, which he was inviting various 'holy men' and wandering ascetics to sample.

"After meeting his guru, Neem Karoli Baba, in the Himalayan foothills, Alpert told him about LSD and his own spiritual experiences with it. The guru asked to see some, and was handed three tablets containing 305 micrograms each, which is about nine normal doses. Alpert describes his horror as he watched the guru pop the tablets into his mouth and swallow; then, thinking, 'This should be interesting,' he settled back to watch what would happen. Nothing happened. After an hour had gone by, plenty of time to be feeling the effects, he asked the guru how he was feeling and he replied, 'Same as always', or words similar to that effect. The guru's condition didn't change over the course of the day and Alpert was amazed, and convinced of his new guru's supernatural status.

"The man with whom I studied yoga was there too. At the time he was running and building the guru's five ashrams and serving as his right-hand man. The guru did little else but sit with people, accept the worship (and money) of his disciples, sing and eat. My teacher ran the details of the whole show and taught yoga. He gave me his account of what happened that day with the LSD.

"Simply put, the guru palmed the LSD tablets and didn't swallow anything but air. Many Indian gurus are adept at sleight of hand and small magic tricks, are not always above using a little subterfuge 'for the good of the disciple'. But the story doesn't end with palming the LSD. The guru later ground the tablets into powder and mixed it with a little of the fine white ash from his sacred fire. This he then gave to two unsuspecting disciples who had been visiting from a distant place and were now departing. Ash from a guru's fire is considered prasad and yes, it is eaten. I don't know anything of the men's journey home, but it was probably quite eventful, especially considering the Himalayan roads, and filled with wondrous exclamations about the guru's tremendous powers."
 
burn out said:
so apparently, alpert gave this guy LSD on two separate occasions and the second time he made certain that the LSD went into his mouth and not over his shoulder. can we trust that alpert is telling the truth? who knows? but i think we can at least rule out the notion that the LSD was simply palmed while alpert thought it had been taken.
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Nonsense, you can't rule it out at all. Anyone who'se ever practised sleight of hand knows that the harder someone is watching you in the hope of catching you out, the easier it is to misdirect them. It's why a lot of sleight of hand experts begin a trick by telling onlookers "Watch closely...".

The other option is that we seriously believe you can give religious old indian men 1200 mics of LSD and nothing will happen to them. I think we can all agree, that is simply ludicrous.
 
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