prohormones?

Serotonin101 said:
not yet. giving myself some time before I jump in. gaining as much info as I can and waiting a bit for my age (I'm 22) and more training experience along with my finances to get in order. I know ill have to ramp up calories big time and I got a huge federal government debt I need to pay off so money is tight. I don't have the money currently to shell out for aas, supplements, ancillaries, pct, food, etc. I think I got $13 to my name right now (still live off the parents). I wanna be settled for the most part financially which should mean a year or two. no harm in training longer naturally.
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Fair play mate, out of interest what's ur weight, bf height and cycle plan (if you have one) ? I'm on the same boat I have very little money and its a big problem with regards to diet ect... Been living on tuna and rice and fast food.. And I also live with the parents. Bullshit like I suggest waiting until you have at least £200 a month for your diet and have all your supps bought and ready to use

-Guido- said:
I like doing things in 5's.
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I was under the impression that you blast and cruise?
 
weight is about 155
body fat estimate is ~15% (don't have calipers)
height is 5' 6"-5' 7"
cycle plan for future is test ace for kick start for a 12-15 week test e cycle. then pct. one hormone to see what my test only side effects are then if I choose. I can toss an oral in during the middle/end of the cycle.
 
Serotonin101 said:
weight is about 155
body fat estimate is ~15% (don't have calipers)
height is 5' 6"-5' 7"
cycle plan for future is test ace for kick start for a 12-15 week test e cycle. then pct. one hormone to see what my test only side effects are then if I choose. I can toss an oral in during the middle/end of the cycle.
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I would be wary of using a fast acting compound for a kick-start, I believe you get less issues from other hormones with a slow build up.. No point spiking Estrogen from day one if you don't have to.... I know a lot of people do it with orals, but that's my personal view especially for a beginner on a first cycle...
 
so standard test e/c 2x weekly 250mg injections for 12 weeks should be sufficient? I was curious about that as I read in another thread about using test prop for kickstart and I'd personally want to avoid the injection pain on my first cycle.
 
Serotonin101 said:
so standard test e/c 2x weekly 250mg injections for 12 weeks should be sufficient? I was curious about that as I read in another thread about using test prop for kickstart and I'd personally want to avoid the injection pain on my first cycle.
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There are a lot of people kick-start, I'm sure more out of impatience after months off and wanting to get back to earlier cycle gains as soon as possible, rather from a medical or pharmacological perspective...

This is how I see it, a natural athlete produces about 70mg of endogenous testosterone per week (or 10mg/day) if he's lucky..
Upon a first injection of say 250mg, hitting the blood after about 2 days, according to its half life protocol thats 125mg over 5 days or roughly 25mg/day....

On its own that's a big difference from 10mg to 25mg (or rather 35mg before natural test is reduced) ....... Consider kick-starting with an oral of say 50mg Dbol/day straight away thats 75mg/day (85mg inc nat test) instantly up from about 10mg.....

Thats a significant hormonal spike in my opinion for a first time user... I might conclude the body would take counter measures raising levels of estrogen, progestin, prolactin, and glucocorticoids in due course...

Its only my opinion but I believe for a first cycle one compound should be used for the above reasons to minimise any potential side effects....

I don't believe you should only be looking as far as maximum gains you can attain for a first cycle... I think a more longer term plan should be considered... (5-10 years)

Using basic a compound of Testosterone, maybe Boldernone in a year or so for quality lean gains, not water weight/bulk that you loose when your regime it terminated... Building up to introducing Tren and DHT derivatives on future cycles if it looks like you have potential and dedication to progress further......

But as I said, its just my opinion...
 
I see your point as you said 10mg/daily if lucky. so in effect just with introducing the longer e/c esters t levels are pretty much doubled or more in a rather short amount of time. that's great info to know. and yeah I'd imagine the body would try to adapt and start upping the feminine hormones in response to a steep androgen increase. *takes notes*
 
GF I know you always say about the longer esters hitting the blood and peaking within X days, but it simply does not work like that. Yes serum blood levels will peak, though that does not mean any gains will be seen. Some people can wait up to 5 weeks on test e before they start to see any results. The first time I took test e it took about 5 weeks before anything happened, though this time around I was seeing effects after 3-4 weeks.
Dbol and other aromatising kickstarts can be a problem for those prone to gynocomastia though
 
nolys said:
Fair play mate, out of interest what's ur weight, bf height and cycle plan (if you have one) ? I'm on the same boat I have very little money and its a big problem with regards to diet ect... Been living on tuna and rice and fast food.. And I also live with the parents. Bullshit like I suggest waiting until you have at least £200 a month for your diet and have all your supps bought and ready to use



I was under the impression that you blast and cruise?
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Oh I do. Before that I always did things in 5's. I have OCD. It isn't bad but I have my moments.
 
nolys said:
GF I know you always say about the longer esters hitting the blood and peaking within X days, but it simply does not work like that. Yes serum blood levels will peak, though that does not mean any gains will be seen. Some people can wait up to 5 weeks on test e before they start to see any results. The first time I took test e it took about 5 weeks before anything happened, though this time around I was seeing effects after 3-4 weeks.
Dbol and other aromatising kickstarts can be a problem for those prone to gynocomastia though
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Enlighten me with science then young nolys.....
 
I mean real world experiance, your levels will be elevated but it doesn't do anything in 90% of cases, gains always come a while later. Read any log online and youl see the same story over and over again

Edit - I'm not sayng your science is wrong, just that gains will not come as soon as your levels are elevated above normal
 
Genetic Freak said:
I would be wary of using a fast acting compound for a kick-start, I believe you get less issues from other hormones with a slow build up.. No point spiking Estrogen from day one if you don't have to.... I know a lot of people do it with orals, but that's my personal view especially for a beginner on a first cycle...
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I don't agree with that personel view at all. I don't understand the less issues or spiking estrogen from day one therory. What's the difference of using a kick start or just using a short ester for a cycle? You never use a short ester only? People use Test Prop for the purpose of less estrogen so less bloat theory for cutting cycles.
 
angelo212 said:
I don't agree with that personel view at all. I don't understand the less issues or spiking estrogen from day one therory. What's the difference of using a kick start or just using a short ester for a cycle? You never use a short ester only? People use Test Prop for the purpose of less estrogen so less bloat theory for cutting cycles.
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There's a lot of exciting new research being done here in New Zealand, some of it contradicts older beliefs or general bro-science that's been put about over the years..
One thing that has been suggested is to stay away from short esters if possible as some research suggests they may actually cause an increase in estradiol due to the fast spike in plasma test and subsequent aromatization.

I'll post what I've got when I can find it...
 
nolys said:
I mean real world experiance, your levels will be elevated but it doesn't do anything in 90% of cases, gains always come a while later. Read any log online and youl see the same story over and over again

Edit - I'm not sayng your science is wrong, just that gains will not come as soon as your levels are elevated above normal
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I was expecting you to post up a few scientific studys nolys, not throw bro-science at me.... lol


Regarding your last two posts:

Yes serum blood levels will peak, though that does not mean any gains will be seen.

I'm not sayng your science is wrong, just that gains will not come as soon as your levels are elevated above normal


I don't believe you understand the point I was trying to make nolys..? I wasn't discussing gains..!!

I was advising against kick-starting either by adding a short acting ester &/or an oral.... Believing this would have a negative effect on other hormones..


But to answer your points: Do you honestly believe that after the ester is removed and blood plasma levels peak nothing happens for up to 5 weeks..?
 
I only have a phone GF I post everything I post from memory I can't look for studies and whatnot on this shitberry I'm posting from lol.

I am by no means an expert and I know I'm certainly not as informed as you on the subject as far as the science goes

I don't understand what you mean by “once the ester is removed”? I'm talking about test e here not test suspension?

And in my experiance yes, I got 1 real vial last cycle and 2 bunk, blood plasma levels peak at 21 days according to you but strength and weight stayed the same for me until about 30+ days. Saying that, diet wasn't amazing at that point, though not bad enough to gain nothing at all. Was probably taking 3000kcal and 150g protein a day @ 175lbs at that point. Other people I know have various time to wait before their gear kicks in also unless its just from dodgy ugl mixes?

And a question - would splitting 2ml of test e into 2 1ml shots and doing each quad make any difference in absorbtion times? Surface area absorbtion tells me it would be absorbed quicker but I don't know how this would work with an ester?
 
nolys said:
I only have a phone GF I post everything I post from memory I can't look for studies and whatnot on this shitberry I'm posting from lol.

I am by no means an expert and I know I'm certainly not as informed as you on the subject as far as the science goes

I don't understand what you mean by “once the ester is removed”? I'm talking about test e here not test suspension?

And in my experiance yes, I got 1 real vial last cycle and 2 bunk, blood plasma levels peak at 21 days according to you but strength and weight stayed the same for me until about 30+ days. Saying that, diet wasn't amazing at that point, though not bad enough to gain nothing at all. Was probably taking 3000kcal and 150g protein a day @ 175lbs at that point. Other people I know have various time to wait before their gear kicks in also unless its just from dodgy ugl mixes?

And a question - would splitting 2ml of test e into 2 1ml shots and doing each quad make any difference in absorbtion times? Surface area absorbtion tells me it would be absorbed quicker but I don't know how this would work with an ester?
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Gosh nolys, where do I start..??

I don't understand what you mean by “once the ester is removed”? I'm talking about test e here not test suspension?

Serotonin mentioned Propionate, you mentioned Enanthate... Propionate and Enanthate are esters attached to the Testosterone molecule or the 17-beta hydroxyl group to be precise.. These increase the active life span, by reducing the steroids water solubility, and increasing the oil solubility. Once injected it forms a depot in muscle tissue, from which it slowly enters circulation. The larger the ester chain, the more oil soluble the compound will be, so will take longer to be released. Once free in circulation the esterase enzymes will remove the ester chain therefore the hormone (testosterone) will be free and active within the blood stream...

Was probably taking 3000kcal and 150g protein a day @ 175lbs

My girlfriend is on over 3000cals a day with 220g protein @ 64kgs.... You need to eat more...

would splitting 2ml of test e into 2 1ml shots and doing each quad make any difference in absorbtion times?

Apparently so... (I've just posted on this subject again in another thread about 10 mins ago)...
 
I know what an ester is GF I think we both got mixed up as I was talking about the enanthate ester whilst serotonin was talking about the propionate ester.

I sure did GF, probably trailing in just shy of 5000 cals now (to be fair a chunk of this is from fat, though I am not too bothered about a lil bit of fat gain, even though I havnt gained any :/) protein is about 220g myself. I got that shit sorted this cycle round...
Which post? I think that would be an interesting read.
 
Kastr0 said:
M1T = Prohormone
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Half truth. It's marketed by the supplement industry as a prohormone but is actually a full blown 17a steroid. It's Mehyldihydroboldeone. Very powerful, and very toxic.
 
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