Please, don't tear me a new one for asking such a question, but I really need some accurate information as I have heard answers that stretch across the spectrum. A friend will be starting bupe treatment tomorrow (suboxone) after a year of intravaneous h use. One must know how hard it is to let ones self go into such withdrawal symptoms willingly. My question is, does precipitated withdrawal actually happen? I've heard of people taking bupe a day after using opiates and not experiencing any type of precipitated withdrawal, but everything I read online says the opposite. In my experience, I could take sub a day after using a 80mg of oc and everything would be fine. Is this because h is more potent than oc? How come some people aren't experiencing this precipitated withdrawal and some are? Scientifically, p.w. makes sense, what doesn't make sense is why some people wouldn't experience it while others do. Any information would be greatly appreciated, thank you ahead of time.
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OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Bupe Precipitated Withdrawals from Bupe treatment?
- Thread starter Pitzul
- Start date
Mr.Scagnattie
Bluelighter
PW's only occur if one is psychically dependent on opiates. If you are dependent, and take bupe while you still have opiates in your system, you will be thrown into withdrawal. To avoid this, you need to wait until all the opiates are out of your system and you are in moderate withdrawal. For some it's 12 hours, for some 24, for some longer. Depends on the individual. But like I said, if you wait until you are in moderate withdrawal to take the bupe, you won't get PW's.
If you are not psychically dependent on opiates, than it doesn't matter when you take the bupe, you can't get PW's.
If you are not psychically dependent on opiates, than it doesn't matter when you take the bupe, you can't get PW's.
If you're still "well" (or not 95% to full withdrawals) on an opiate, and take subs, you will get precips.
If you're in full withdrawals, you're safe (unless its methadone, or something else very, very long lasting, that can be tricky)
If you're in full withdrawals, you're safe (unless its methadone, or something else very, very long lasting, that can be tricky)
'medicine cabinet'
Bluelighter
Shit when i stopped taking my bupe and shooting smack again before i got back on the bupe i had to get really sick or else id get torn apart with pw. So short answer yes, but it depends on your habit and full agonist of choice. But i will say this, alot of ppl at the meth clinic i go to seem to think only suboxone causes pw not subutex which is simply not true. The naloxone is added to deter ppl from shooting it, when taken as directed it doesnt do anything. Its the bupe its self that causes the pw bc its a partial agonist, and its antagonist properties are not to be underestimated. Before my brat sister admitted to being a pill head i made her give me what she said she had left which was a chunk of white pill she said was opana. The next night i found it on the rug and thought well better let this not go to waste, bumped it and within 5 mins i could feel my pulse quicken and pupils dialate. I thought it was speed or some stim, but no it was a piece of subutex. Tore thru 110mgs of methadone like it was nothing was sick for the next few days bc of it. Even on my daily 110. So be careful bc pw is no fun.
Mr.Scagnattie
Bluelighter
Psychical Dependence
If you are psychically addicted to opiates, meaning without them you will go into withdrawal. That is the only way PW's can occur if you take the bupe too early.
If you've been doing painkillers everyday for 2 years, then yes you're most definitely psychically dependent. So to avoid PW's, you need to wait until you are in withdrawal to take the bupe. If you feel like testing it and making yourself miserable, take a dose of opiates then 2 hours later take a dose of suboxone.. then you'll know what PW's are. Not fun.
twotoomany
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Messages
- 736
Not to derail the thread, Mr.Scags, but is psychical dependence a combo of physical and psychological? Or is the word physical the bane of your existence, in the same way I can NEVER spell durring with only one R, even though that's the way I know it's spelled? Not trying to bust you balls, I've just always been curious.
i have been back and forth, from opiates to bupe for years, and i have NEVER experienced PW. I have taken opana during the afternoon (1pm/2pm) and taken suboxone later that night (11pm). i have done this plenty of times, sometimes with even less time between. About 95% of the time i am NOT feeling much, if any withdrawal symptoms when i take my suboxone, and i have NEVER had a problem. As i am sure u know, they say you can only experience PW if u take an opiate THEN bupe...taking bupe THEN an opiate is just going to block the effects of the opiate, but there will be no PW.
Metalchik
Greenlighter
I have never taken suboxone in my life until recently... And oh it was nt fun. I used heroin straight for 8 years without stopping, a very large habit at that. I went on methadone maintenance and still was using while on that. I then got arrested, got my meth in jail and then got rapidly detoxed in 18 days. With completely no habit 2 months later I did a 4 mg sub in jail and got extremely high.. But not euphoric like heroin. I got out and did dope again for 2-3 weeks and the first week and a half was not every day use, I got a bit sick one day and figured my habit was a chippy and I took a 8mgsub (which i was told was way too much) 15 hours after last use and went into the worst per withdrawals ever and panicked because in my mind I know it's a blocker.. I ended up taking 60mg of methadone to breakthrough it an fell asleep an hour or so later...if I hadent had the meth The in would have worked probably after opiates were gone like 8-9 more hours later
StartedHydro
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 29, 2006
- Messages
- 677
I think the trick to this is to start small with the Bupe dose. If your at hour 17 and your feeling a tad bit blue and MUST dose the bupe don't take the full 8 mg pill at once. Start off with say .50 mg wait a hour or so. Gauge how you feel, if still a little blue dose another .50 mg. so on and so on.
I've noticed that while I don't feel like complete crap but not great if I take my full bupe dose I get that really bad feeling of extreme inner cold, anxiety spike, real mad depression and it lingers for a hour or so. Now, at that same stage of WD if I take really small pieces and titrate up I've never had those ungodly feelings of prec WD. I view it as a stadium full of people(stadium opiate rec and people are opiates). When I start feeling a tad down I equate it to around 3/4 of the stadium is now full and people are steadily leaving. Now at this point if I take my full bupe dose great chance I'm gonna cause that stadium to do a mass exit, but if I take a small small piece if wont cause that effect. Not sure if that made sense.
I've always wondered to for just the IVers out there that when you IV the nalxone has to get to the rec first. I've always wondered if the few times I went into PW it was almost instant and then around 20 mins later I felt great relief. So I wondered if the Nal got there first and then the bupe overpowers the Nal. I ask cause if I'm in just plain WD and bang bupe it still takes a solid 15-30 mins to feel better.
I've noticed that while I don't feel like complete crap but not great if I take my full bupe dose I get that really bad feeling of extreme inner cold, anxiety spike, real mad depression and it lingers for a hour or so. Now, at that same stage of WD if I take really small pieces and titrate up I've never had those ungodly feelings of prec WD. I view it as a stadium full of people(stadium opiate rec and people are opiates). When I start feeling a tad down I equate it to around 3/4 of the stadium is now full and people are steadily leaving. Now at this point if I take my full bupe dose great chance I'm gonna cause that stadium to do a mass exit, but if I take a small small piece if wont cause that effect. Not sure if that made sense.
I've always wondered to for just the IVers out there that when you IV the nalxone has to get to the rec first. I've always wondered if the few times I went into PW it was almost instant and then around 20 mins later I felt great relief. So I wondered if the Nal got there first and then the bupe overpowers the Nal. I ask cause if I'm in just plain WD and bang bupe it still takes a solid 15-30 mins to feel better.
Slum Survivor
Bluelighter
all good info and all... but just recently i suffered P/W's and now know what AWFUL hell it truly is.
ive had bupe many times in the past, mostly all from the street but also from a doctor for about 8 months a couple years ago. until recently i had never experienced P/W when using suboxone or subutex either one.
I had been using opiates again recently and I am certianly physically addicted again, about one or two bags a day habit(or equivalent). I got my hands on one 8mg suboxone film last week. Im trying to kick on my own, so i planned on trying to use that ONE sub. obviously needing to break it down into smaller doses and trying to make it last. Ive IV'd suboxone strips in the past, so i planned to do just that to make the sub last as long as possible.
I had shot not even a whole bag in the morning. 10 hours later i THOUGHT i was sick enough to go ahead and take some sub. I cut a tiny peice of the sub film, maybe not even 1mg of it. I dissolved the peice and double filtered it, just like i used to do. no issues or anything, so i went ahead and IV'd the small dose i rigged up. as soon as i pulled the rig out, i knew i was SCREWED. it felt like i could feel the shot going thru me like fire. Instant hardcore withdrawal, im talking bad-trip style. for some reason it even flared up my sciatica.
I went thru HELL for the first hour, and took 1mg xanax to try and calm down. It didnt do much, and later that night, around 4 am, i ended up in the Emergency Room with my sciatica. i got an anti-imflammatory shot, two 5/500 hydros, and a 5 mg valium. and was sent out with a 20 script of each and some ibuprofen. i went home and managed to sleep for a few hours, and had to get my hands on a couple bags of dope to get any sort of sanity, much less relief.
Ive shot suboxone films before many times before(not that im gonna condone that) and NEVER ever had precipitated withdrawal... I dont know if they just recently started making sure that naloxone is active when shot, or if i just screwed up and didnt wait long enough. I am seeing more and more P/W stories... so maybe they started making sure that the naloxone is active when IV'd and they weren't before? Its just that i got those P/W's almost instantly, and whenever i used to shoot bupe before it took about 5-15 minutes to start kicking in. thats one reason why im susupicious about the naloxone.
but i always thought that naloxone cant touch the bupe due to the binding affinity of the bupe over the naloxone tho? isnt this true?
if so i must just have not waited long enough... but im scared as all hell to shoot the sub now. im even scared to take it sublingually... so now i plan to wait at least 24 hrs before dosing ANY bupe after dope. ugh im so scared now.
ive had bupe many times in the past, mostly all from the street but also from a doctor for about 8 months a couple years ago. until recently i had never experienced P/W when using suboxone or subutex either one.
I had been using opiates again recently and I am certianly physically addicted again, about one or two bags a day habit(or equivalent). I got my hands on one 8mg suboxone film last week. Im trying to kick on my own, so i planned on trying to use that ONE sub. obviously needing to break it down into smaller doses and trying to make it last. Ive IV'd suboxone strips in the past, so i planned to do just that to make the sub last as long as possible.
I had shot not even a whole bag in the morning. 10 hours later i THOUGHT i was sick enough to go ahead and take some sub. I cut a tiny peice of the sub film, maybe not even 1mg of it. I dissolved the peice and double filtered it, just like i used to do. no issues or anything, so i went ahead and IV'd the small dose i rigged up. as soon as i pulled the rig out, i knew i was SCREWED. it felt like i could feel the shot going thru me like fire. Instant hardcore withdrawal, im talking bad-trip style. for some reason it even flared up my sciatica.
I went thru HELL for the first hour, and took 1mg xanax to try and calm down. It didnt do much, and later that night, around 4 am, i ended up in the Emergency Room with my sciatica. i got an anti-imflammatory shot, two 5/500 hydros, and a 5 mg valium. and was sent out with a 20 script of each and some ibuprofen. i went home and managed to sleep for a few hours, and had to get my hands on a couple bags of dope to get any sort of sanity, much less relief.
Ive shot suboxone films before many times before(not that im gonna condone that) and NEVER ever had precipitated withdrawal... I dont know if they just recently started making sure that naloxone is active when shot, or if i just screwed up and didnt wait long enough. I am seeing more and more P/W stories... so maybe they started making sure that the naloxone is active when IV'd and they weren't before? Its just that i got those P/W's almost instantly, and whenever i used to shoot bupe before it took about 5-15 minutes to start kicking in. thats one reason why im susupicious about the naloxone.
but i always thought that naloxone cant touch the bupe due to the binding affinity of the bupe over the naloxone tho? isnt this true?
if so i must just have not waited long enough... but im scared as all hell to shoot the sub now. im even scared to take it sublingually... so now i plan to wait at least 24 hrs before dosing ANY bupe after dope. ugh im so scared now.
^no matter what they do, suboxone is always gonna out compete naloxone to the receptors. It was the bupe that gave you precipitated withdrawal, and not naloxone. You didn't wait long enough of your last dose of full agonist is why. I've shot subs 8 hours after 4 bags of H AND was fine, and the another time I waited 12 hours after 2 bags of H and got thrown into the hell that use precipitated withdrawal. It depends on many different factors, which is why there is "no set time" to which you can transition from a full agonists to bupe
Slum Survivor
Bluelighter
^^ i agree with it most likely being bupe that caused the P/W. but like i said it was so instant, i was scared that the naloxone did it.
i also agree about each time being different. seems the dope ive been getting lately lasts longer than other dope, and is stronger. perhaps i didnt take that into consideration enough. i just had felt like crap at around 10 hours and thought my pupils were big enough to take the bupe. obviously it seems i just didnt wait long enough... this is certainly never been an issue until recently tho, so see why i was suspicious? like u said, ive done bupe 8-12 hours after morphine/heroin/etc... and never had P/W's until this last time. thats what scares me.
i also agree about each time being different. seems the dope ive been getting lately lasts longer than other dope, and is stronger. perhaps i didnt take that into consideration enough. i just had felt like crap at around 10 hours and thought my pupils were big enough to take the bupe. obviously it seems i just didnt wait long enough... this is certainly never been an issue until recently tho, so see why i was suspicious? like u said, ive done bupe 8-12 hours after morphine/heroin/etc... and never had P/W's until this last time. thats what scares me.
Well Opana's got a pretty damn short half life, isn't it like top end 2.5 hours, well shorter than oxycodone's or heroin(morphine)'s half lives. Unless you are eating the Opana, but I somehow doubt that. Also the person's tolerance really plays a big role in PWD, I can take Subs as early as 10 hours after H, I prefer to wait 12 at least. But I snort and I have always managed to get my habit down around .75 g a day of decent but not great stuff.
Mr.Scagnattie
Bluelighter
The more times you go back and forth between opiates and bupe, the harder it becomes to make the switch. Unfortunately, it's normal to start having to wait longer periods of time to avoid PW's and just having an overall more difficult time making the transition.
Slum Survivor
Bluelighter
^^Ah this explains alot then.... i think im gonna try about 2mg worth subL route next time at first, not an IV to start out with for the jump. perhaps i can try and chime back in when i do start the sub again.
perhaps i should be looking towards trying to get methadone treatment. just having a hard time finding the info i need on where to go and so forth. im poor and live in a poor area where its not easy to find help for low income. at least not for me so far... i cant afford a sub doctor without drastic measures. sry to go off subject a bit there.
sry to go off subject a bit.
Mr.Scagnattie
Bluelighter
Methadone treatment brings it's own host of problems, often times much worse than with bupe. I would stick with the subs. If you think bupe is rough.. methadone can make it look like a walk in the park.
Slum Survivor
Bluelighter
so say i did my last H dose about 24 hours ago. but! today about 10 hours ago i took 200 mg of tramadol. obviously that much tramadol did little to help me... right now im starting to really feel the w/d...
ive read alot today on how i should only use the clock as a back up and its more about how u feel. and right now i keep yawning and watering up, cold chills etc...
shouldnt i be okay to try dosing some sub? or would u all wait until morning if i can help it?
ive read alot today on how i should only use the clock as a back up and its more about how u feel. and right now i keep yawning and watering up, cold chills etc...
shouldnt i be okay to try dosing some sub? or would u all wait until morning if i can help it?
StartedHydro
Bluelighter
- Joined
- May 29, 2006
- Messages
- 677
Also take note, the buprenorphine/naloxone are NOT evenly distributed throughout the film or pill. There is a probability that you could had shot a higher portion of naloxone than buprenorphine. Also I would bet that naloxone beats bupe to the rec. when I am in WDs like 4 days without bupe and I shoot it, bupe takes a solid 10 mins to start pulling me out of WDs, mainlined. Even though bupe out competes naloxone I think naloxone gets their first, due to bupes high lip.
Once again, the strip nor pill, has any markers on them designated by manufacturer or FDA stating how much active medication is distributed.
Once again, the strip nor pill, has any markers on them designated by manufacturer or FDA stating how much active medication is distributed.
Slum Survivor
Bluelighter
Ive shot strips before... the naloxone never once kicked the bupe out of the receptors. i just cant remember if i have ever went straight from full agonist to IV strip. im starting to think the naloxone can be active and jerk the full agonists out if u go straight to IV.
also i never noticed a difference in potency from one little piece to the next but i have thought about how evenly the stuff is distributed. like i said tho, i never had an issue with that.