Precipitated withdrawal from fentanyl to suboxone Help?

[dpatches]

About a month ago I'd run out of my suboxone and got my hands on a bunch of 100mcg/h fent patches . I was extremely withdrawing when I got them so I immediately sucked the gel outta one and slapped one on for instant relief. Over the following weeks I'd noticed my tolerance spiked and I ended up having to wear 2 patches and sucking the gel out every 2nd day.
A few weeks later my fent supply was gone and I had gotten my suboxone.I took my last patch off and sucked the gel out and was ready to get back o my suboxone the next day.
That Sunday I woke in OK shape and was fine for a few hours. Things went bad pretty quick tho within 1urs of removing the patch I was in the worst withdrawals I'd ever been in. So as far as I knew and felt I was in severe withdrawals thus I fig I was clear to doNose my suboxon
Boy was I wrong instantly I was thrown into precipitated withdrawals.This is the fourth time I've been thru these when switching from fent.. Normally I'd be able to another patch to suck the gel out to get me out of the 4 day hell of Precipitated withdrawal. Not an option this time I dealt with it for around 24 hours until I was able to get 5 10 methadone they helped but not back to 100%.
I hadn't slept in 4 nights and ended switching to H half a g a day. But I've noticed if I don't do a rail about every 4 hours I start feeling withdrawalspretty bad. The longest stretch I made was last night till this morning which was 12 hours and I awoke in pretty bad withdrawals. I already had dope so I dosed that and scored another half as I had a busy day of work.
Tomorrow is my only day off I have a busy day babysitting my nephew and need to get back to my suboxone.
My questions being if I make it the 12 hours again tonight and awake in withdrawals is that sufficient time for the H to be off my receptors so I can dose my sub? Ho:w much sub should I dose? And lately before I'd been prescribed suboxone for the past three years I used to be able to do my DOC in the morning feel like shit at night and dose sub with no troubles.Has being on the suboxone for so long changed my system somehow or is it just the fent being to powerful for the sub.
Scared shitless to go thru precipitated withdrawals again and any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[twato]

I really hate Suboxone. Doctors tell you only a limited amount- because they don't know the whole story... And everyone thinks its some magic bullet, and "better" than methadone because you can get a script from a doctor. One of the worst things about this drug is what you are discovering. I'm not a scientist so I can't tell you why this happens- but if you keep switching back and forth between your DOC(s) and Sub, eventually this is what happens. The sub quits working. You endure hours and days of agony and never seem to feel right. Maybe if you stick with the subs only for days, you will eventually feel normal. If you are going to maintain on Subs, you just can't be switching back and forth. It's what I consider Suboxones nasty secret. And I don't know- maybe not everyone is affected like this, but lots of people are. Really sorry- hope you feel better soon.
Edit: to actually answer your questions... The fent did not do you any favors. You raised your tolerance a lot, and sub works better for "smaller" habits. That factors in absolutely. It's much harder to get back to sub when your tolerance is raised. As for how long to wait. 12 hours will not be sufficient. I'd say minimum of 24, and because of the amount of fent, that may still be pushing it. But when you go to the doctors office to first be inducted, regardless of your habit, they tell you to abstain for 24 hours.

I couldn't agree more. Normally, I just used H with the subs as a tapering method when my finances couldn't keep up with the habit, and it's always been quite easy to rapidly detox within a week, using a little less sub each day.

Thing is, the more often I did this, the worse the WD symptoms during the taper got. After I shared a 75mcg fent patch with a mate, I decided to come off the opiates for a bit. This time, the taper is way worse than ever before. Though still bearable and I can still function, the symptoms are much more pronounced than every time I did this before, and the only thing I can imagine causing this is the continued swapping between H (my DOC) and subs, with the fent patch adding a little as well. Still better than going cold turkey though, no question about that.

Subs are a miracle drug in my opinion, the trick is knowing when and for how long to use them. If you maintain on subs constantly, you might as well just chug methadone, the WDs will be about the same (although many find it easier to taper off subs than done, even after taking them for years).

 

[likwidsolutions]

I have gone through almost exactly the same thing. About 2 years ago, I was averaging about 30-50 mc/g a day. I would cut the Fentanyl 100mcgs into 4 or 5 strips (they weren't the gel kind, they were the sticky kind), and then suck on them in the inside of my mouth. It just tasted like plastic with a little bit a glue. Anyways, I was doing this for a few months, with about 2 bags of H every day and a half or so (snorting, never spiked), or 4-5 30mg percocets (they aren't really percocet, but that's what we call them around here, Perc 30s, the instant oxycodone, blueish pills), plus about 3-4 mg of Xanax a day. My mom was doing similar amounts but she couldn't pace herself, and she took way too much, and died.

After that, I felt like crap and it really made me think about my drug use. I decided to finish off the Fentanyl and then just quit. I ran out of Fentanyl a day or two before my mom's funeral, and I had some suboxone. I took it about 24-36 hours after my last dose of Fent, and I started to feel worse and worse. It was some of the worst withdrawals I've ever had (up to that point, I've had worse since). I didnt feel okay until about 3 or 4 days after that, even though I was still taking sub, because from what I've been told, if you start precipitated W/D, you should continue taking your Suboxone dose regularly, and it should go away on it's own. But it was terrible, I kept taking Subs, and it just kept feeling worse.

My suggestion to you is this: Stop taking the suboxone for a few days, do some H or some oxys for a few days (even if you dont get high), then use the subs after you start W/D from those. It's going to be much easier to go from Oxys/H to Subs than from Fentanyl or Methadone (any long lasting opiate) to Subs. It's just too hard to judge when you should take it. You will feel like crap 24-36 hours after doing the fentanyl, but theres still too much in your system to take the subs.

Since then I've quit Xanax, which was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. It's been a year and I still feel crappy most of the time, but I'm glad I'm not taking them anymore. I am on Suboxone now, and it's going alright. I've been on Suboxone before and it's not the best thing. IT's expensive and coming off of subs is one of the worst opiate W/Ds, but if you have enough money to be on it long enough, you can taper super slowly and it works better, but sometimes that's just not practical. I am not the biggest fan of being on Suboxone, but IMO it sure beats looking for a dose every few hours, trying to pull together the cash to get just a hit of a dose. With subs, I may not have enough money to buy all of them, but usually they prescribe more than you need, so you can get rid of some of them to help pay for it. I have friends on Suboxone as well and we front each other some when we just can't afford it, it works out.

 

[dpatches]

I managed to chip again I just really got bored with the suboxone and wanted to have some fun. For like 2 weeks I was sniffing the opana 30s cuz the price was unbelievably low and my co worker had a huge supply. I got tired of those pretty quick. The long prep time of crushing one up with the battery ooperated nail file didn't help either. Especially when your doin 5 a day. I really wanted to get good and wrecked so I grabbed 8 boxes of the Watson 100mcg/h patches as my co worker had a ton of extras and again they were dirt cheap. I have been jammed 24/7 sinc

In the mean time I've managed to get my hands on 10 subutex pills from my sister. I have plenty of patches left but I'm just curious do I have to wait when switching from the fent to the subutex? I've read some posts of people saying they've had precipitated withdrawals.when switching to subutex. I would guess they're just confusing the names , suboxone & subutex, cuz its my understanding you don't have to worry about pws. Just curious for when I'm ready to switch. As I have been through precipitated withdrawals 4 times and want no part of a 5th. Plus I'd like to know if I wasted my cash on the subutex.

Thanx

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I have plenty of patches left but I'm just curious do I have to wait when switching from the fent to the subutex? I've read some posts of people saying they've had precipitated withdrawals.when switching to subutex. I would guess they're just confusing the names , suboxone & subutex, cuz its my understanding you don't have to worry about pws. Just curious for when I'm ready to switch. As I have been through precipitated withdrawals 4 times and want no part of a 5th. Plus I'd like to know if I wasted my cash on the subutex.

Sorry but you absolutely do have to wait and can definitely get precipitated withdrawals from Subutex. Suboxone = buprenorphine + naloxone, while Subutex = buprenorphine. It's the buprenorphine that causes the precipitated withdrawals.

 

[ReversiblePulpitis]

I managedto chip again I just really got bored with the suboxone and wanted to have some fun. For like 2 weeks I was sniffing the opana 30s cuz the price was unbelievably low and my co worker had a huge supply. I got tired of those pretty quick. The long prep time of crushing one up with the battery ooperated nail file didn't help either. Especially when your doin 5 a day. I really wanted to get good and wrecked so I grabbed 8 boxes of the Watson 100mcg/h patches as my co worker had a ton of extras and again they were dirt cheap. I have been jammed 24/7 sinc

In the mean time I've managed to get my hands on 10 subutex pills from my sister. I have plenty of patches left but I'm just curious do I have to wait when switching from the fent to the subutex? I've read some posts of people saying they've had precipitated withdrawals.when switching to subutex. I would guess they're just confusing the names , suboxone & subutex, cuz its my understanding you don't have to worry about pws. Just curious for when I'm ready to switch. As I have been through precipitated withdrawals 4 times and want no part of a 5th. Plus I'd like to know if I wasted my cash on the subutex.

Thanx

Wow. Just. Wozzwizzle.

Its the main ingred buprenorphine In both subutex and suboxone that causes the PWDs, not the naloxone in suboxone.

Fent has an extremely short half-life as long as you keep it off your skin. If youre going to abuse them, just gum/cheek and vape gel blobs, wearing them is probably more dangerous bc of its constant release...for when you sleep or nod particular after using H or even just abusing a shite load of the fent itself.

So youre not only wasting a patch by wearing it, youre increasing risk for OD, and shit stays trapped in your skin for 3-5+ days dude. So youve been taking bupe with an arm loaded full of leftover fent.

Either dont wear them or stop wearing them a week before u want to switch back. Oral and vape only that last week.

Oh and 40x 100mcg/hr gel fent patches is what you claim to have. Thats 400mg of fent. Youre looking to kill yourself... and have enuf left over to kill 4-5 others. I know youre invincible tho youre right.

Btw stop fucking splooging an entire patch of gel into your mouth at once. Utterly fucking wasteful and dumb.

 

[BlueHues]

^Yeah, I've been prescribed subutex and about the only difference I can tell, is that it doesn't make me quite as queasy the first hour or so after taking it, but other than that it's pretty much the same.....

It's a common myth that subutex wont make you sick and some people just don't seem to understand the whole Naloxone is a full antagonist that only works IV vs buprenorphine is a partial agonist/antagonist that can also cause PWDs.....It's basically just as hard to get on subutex as it is suboxone, and anybody who says otherwise, its all in your head....

 

[Mass08]

Dude naloxone isn't even active IV. You can IV suboxone, the bupe has a higher binding affinity than the naloxone. Binding affinity is NOT dependent upon ROA. Naloxone does absolutely nothing no matter how you take your suboxone the naloxone is never on your receptors, the bupe is the only thing. Also you are going to have to stop chipping sooner or later because as many people can tell you the more times that you switch from suboxone to a full agonist and then back to suboxone it becomes less and less effective each time. Your essentially shooting yourself in the foot every time you decide to treat yourself to full agonists. If you are going to get high on the full agonists then keep using them until you have no more and then get on suboxone and stay on suboxone.

 

[BlueHues]

Dude naloxone isn't even active IV.

Okay.....so you do know that "Narcan" is Naloxone abd you do know that that's what they give to people IV for overdoses AND that it's not active orally, right?

Whether or not 2 mgs of Naloxone is strong enough to compete with 8mgs of bupebrenorphine if you IV them at the same time, I don't know. other than maybe being able to take lower doses and conserving your sub, I don't see a point in IVing them.....although I've done it...

And I agree, ROA doesn't affect receptor affinity, but the great majority of Naloxone passes right through you and never ends up in the bloodstream when taken orally, so its definitelty much more "active" used IV.....They also have a naloxone nasal spray now that use can use to bring people out of an OD without having to administer it IV...

Anyway, naloxone has a higher receptor affinity than 98% of the opiates out there and thats why it works as a opiate antagonist....

Buprenorphine is one of the few opioids that can compete with naloxone(some fentanyls too).....

but to say basically that "Naloxone does nothing no matter how it's taken" just isnt true....

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Anyway, naloxone has a higher receptor affinity than 98% of the opiates out there and thats why it works as a opiate antagonist....

Buprenorphine is one of the few opioids that can compete with naloxone(some fentanyls too).....

but to say basically that "Naloxone does nothing no matter how it's taken" just isnt true....

^This. Naloxone IS definitely active IV, it just doesn't really make a difference when in the form of Suboxone because the amount of naloxone is not enough to block the buprenorphine, since buprenorphine is basically more "attracted" to opiate receptors and will prevent the naloxone from binding to the receptors. I get the point Mass08 was trying to make but it could confuse people to say "naloxone isn't even active IV". That makes it sound like naloxone is never active IV.

 

[Notsohighnow]

I have had heavy opoid use and a large tolerance. I would switch between OCs and subutex all the time with no adverse reaction. Anywho, after surgery there was no reason to continue subs so I stayedon percs and fentanyl and that got me by but I ran out before my next scri

 

[Opiatesxoxo]

Sorry but you absolutely do have to wait and can definitely get precipitated withdrawals from Subutex. Suboxone = buprenorphine + naloxone, while Subutex = buprenorphine. It's the buprenorphine that causes the precipitated withdrawals.

.

I thought it was nalaxone that causes precipitated withdrawals and isn't subutex used by doctors only on patients who need it immediately and still have opiates in their body? And there's no nalaxone so you will not have precipitated withdrawals??

 

[Skill]

This has definitely happened to me before, it's from wearing the patch because it is being absorbed transdermally some of the fentanyl will be trapped for days in your skin as it slowly diffuses into your bloodstream.

Just to clarify, precipitated withdrawal is when a competitive agonist has a higher binding affinity than another agonist, and forcibly rips (in this case fentanyl) from the u-opioid receptors.

So anything with a higher binding affinity and significantly less activity will cause pwds, including buprenorphine AND naloxone.

Back to OP, suboxone is what got me off the opiates, it is a miracle drug if used properly. Fentanyl is the most lethal opiate known and I would strongly advise against using it, especially if you aren't fully aware of the mechanisms by which it operates. If you're serious about stopping then I'm afraid the only way is to stay on subs and subs only until you're ready to make the jump. People say you can taper subs but after so many on off cycles you're more than likely gonna have to taper to 1-4mg and cold turkey.

I did this maneuver only it was 8mg and I was sentenced to 4 weeks in a non-narcotic jail. If I could do it my way I would have taken a week off work and stayed home with gatorade and benzos.

Look up the half-lifes for opiates you are considering taking, different ROAs will cause these times to vary. Methadone is up to 72 hours, oxy is 12-24, dope is anyone's guess because you don't know what fentanyl analog could be lurking in it.

Withdrawals can be beat only by sheer will and a strong mind, drugs like benzos and clonidine (very common blood pressure medicine) can make this battle significantly easier.