Benzos post Benzo withdrawal use : short half life or long ?

[lunchbox333]

Best part: it's uncontrolled and available legally online! It's affordable too. Great stuff dude, definitely try iy.

okay this makes my probability of trying it increase tenfold haha.

 

[EscapeFromFreedom]

Yes, I would agree that benzos are pretty addictive for anxious people. Not so addictive in a pleasure/euphoric sense, but more in a punishment avoidance sense. I think it's their dual nature that does it. They do reduce anxiety/panic, but there is plenty of rebound anxiety too, which feels like the same type of anxiety that one took the benzo for in the first place. But yes, they can downregulate the GABA-a receptors and dysregulate the HPA axis and effect a gazzillion other neurotransmitters, eventually causing ugly cortisol spikes which justify benzo use in higher doses. The brain will compensate and the Glutamate production will go up, which will cause the anxiety/fear/panic to spike. And then the overperforming glutamate system and underperforming GABA system end up creating a chemical imbalance situation where benzos are just used to stave off horrible acute withdrawal. It only happens to a minority of people who take benzos (10% maybe), but it's a sizeable minority and it's worth knowing about benzos. And not all doctors seem to understand the dangers, and not all know how to taper people off safely. I think it can just turn into one big mess no one wants to deal with.

 

[candidsurprise]

I think another factor is the overall nature of the effect benzos give you, they put you into a rationally/logically/emotionally unsafe cognitive space and allow your judgement to slip which causes excessive redosing. something about the nature of benzos make it so that normally the more effect people feel, the less likely they are to think its working. all to often the guy off 7mg of Xanax is gonna be like " I'm not even feeling anything" while half slumped on the couch lol. this behavior makes it easy to take it for undiscriminate periods of time before someone even notices how long they've been dosing. because they definitely dont effect my reward system the same as more classically addicting drugs. for anxious people they can prove to be very very addicting though, clearly.


I was originally prescribed Xanax a few years ago at pretty high doses , 120 2mg bars every month, for anxiety. I was a lot younger and this dose was way too excessive, I ended up getting sick of it after around a year of pure shit show and quit with almost no withdrawal symptoms or anything in particular. my anxiety was more or less managed although I was using opioids after I was done with the Xanax. I still have anxiety issues, nothing too severe, but coupled with some depression it is a burden. though nothing that would make me want to get back on benzos again as a crutch.

being a naturally anxious person, I am just having some trouble at the last leg of my gabapentin withdrawal and looking for relief of symptom. so this would be used only once or so in the near future, not looking to get instated on a regiment. so its mostly for a little relaxation, almost like how one might use it to soften a comedown of a stim trip.

For sure man. To be honest with you I fucking hate benzos haha, had too many bad experiences with them and I've witnessed the suffering that these pills can cause for some people. Lack of inhibition is just one of its many evils. In truth I didn't really experience lack of inhibition on benzos, I get it a lot more on other drugs like ghb. But I've seen at happen to people, and it can kill.

Just a side point, have you considered a therapy course in distress tolerance? I've found that other forms of therapy were pretty much ineffective for me as I was already aware of all the stuff they teach you. But distress tolerance really helped me with the idea of coming to accept that I can live with a life that is dominated by suffering, as it is in my case. I have moderate to severe depression, and severe Body Dysmorphic Disorder along with several other mental illnesses. Pretty much every day is a fight to endure the pain. You say that it is a burden. The whole point of distress tolerance training is to ask 'so what?'. In other words it tries to help you get used to the suffering involved. I don't know if you're spiritual, but my religious faith is what has got me through this. I would probably be dead by now otherwise.

 

[lunchbox333]

For sure man. To be honest with you I fucking hate benzos haha, had too many bad experiences with them and I've witnessed the suffering that these pills can cause for some people. Lack of inhibition is just one of its many evils. In truth I didn't really experience lack of inhibition on benzos, I get it a lot more on other drugs like ghb. But I've seen at happen to people, and it can kill.

Just a side point, have you considered a therapy course in distress tolerance? I've found that other forms of therapy were pretty much ineffective for me as I was already aware of all the stuff they teach you. But distress tolerance really helped me with the idea of coming to accept that I can live with a life that is dominated by suffering, as it is in my case. I have moderate to severe depression, and severe Body Dysmorphic Disorder along with several other mental illnesses. Pretty much every day is a fight to endure the pain. You say that it is a burden. The whole point of distress tolerance training is to ask 'so what?'. In other words it tries to help you get used to the suffering involved. I don't know if you're spiritual, but my religious faith is what has got me through this. I would probably be dead by now otherwise.

you ever heard of Jordan Peterson? I think some of lectures on suffering might be right up your alley man, seriously. I agree though, therapy that tries to "mask" the fear or pain in our lives never work and are a fairy tale. someone who has PTSD can't ever go back to the innocent state they once were in before being totally shattered, its impossible. but what you CAN do is change their perspective so that they can fully understand you know what yes this world is evil, its terrible, far more evil than we could even imagine, but you know what, through conquering that fear a little more every day and through bearing that pain you not only become stronger but you actually find meaning in your life. many people think the meaning in life is to find happiness, thats actually not necessarily true. because suffering is inevitable, we all suffer, we cant decide how much we can suffer all we can really do is pick our vices, and even then its not fully in control. everyone dies, everyone gets hurt, these are aspects of life that dont just dissapear and chasing a forever fleeting comfort or happiness is the quickest way to insanity as its almost impossible. its about finding something actually WORTH the suffering and worth the pain, through that we transform. not sure if I can send links here but I'll try to post a clip.


I hated benzos for a long time myself, they really destroyed a good year of my life in the earlier years, and I've seen a lot of people go terribly wrong with them. it got the point where I wouldn't even hang out with you if I knew you were on or recently were on benzos, when my friends would call me I could hear it over the phone, I'd say youre barred out dude call me later. I really despised those things, and they do have quite a caveat to them. but we can never blame the drug, because then we dont really solve the problem we just limit ourselves. which arguably is the right decision for most people, benzos absolutely destroy lives. but they also save lives. we can't blame the drug on an inherent flaw in our psychology, we CAN however point out the massive correlation between this drugs use and peoples sure fire way down this path. the two are very different though. this is exactly the rational that happened with psychedelics that has just halted us in decades of pharmacological progress.

 

[lunchbox333]

The whole point of distress tolerance training is to ask 'so what?'. In other words it tries to help you get used to the suffering involved. I don't know if you're spiritual, but my religious faith is what has got me through this. I would probably be dead by now otherwise.

dude, you definitely should check this out. I think it is right up your alley, and yeah spirituality is the one thing thats holding me in there man, seriously. I've had some amazingly intense alchemical transformation over past few years some of it was torture at best and some of it was heaven at worst, either way without the particular perspective I have I would have lost myself in nihilism long ago.

anyways, hopefully the link comes through: let me know what you think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrpcwIZdiQ

 

[Lorne???]

Do all you can to improve the gabapentin BA%(mostly staggering doses, onset, well “peak “ is gradual anyway so)

Whatever helps you man - dealing with my own K pin issues, it is getting just, well can’t spell the word, basically ridiculous though

Wish everyone luck and ask any questions if needed - we try, WE try!!!!

Seriously, it’s not always a dissertation from me. Even PM if needed - PEACE, Lorne??? ?

 

[lunchbox333]

Do all you can to improve the gabapentin BA%(mostly staggering doses, onset, well “peak “ is gradual anyway so)

Whatever helps you man - dealing with my own K pin issues, it is getting just, well can’t spell the word, basically ridiculous though

Wish everyone luck and ask any questions if needed - we try, WE try!!!!

Seriously, it’s not always a dissertation from me. Even PM if needed - PEACE, Lorne??? ?

youre a cool dude man ! haha dont even worry, for what its worth my hypochondriac self highly appreciates the dissertation style, I'm as meticulous as can be when it comes to this sort of thing. hope everything is looking on the up and up for you regarding those kpins, you tapering off ?

 

[candidsurprise]

you ever heard of Jordan Peterson? I think some of lectures on suffering might be right up your alley man, seriously. I agree though, therapy that tries to "mask" the fear or pain in our lives never work and are a fairy tale. someone who has PTSD can't ever go back to the innocent state they once were in before being totally shattered, its impossible. but what you CAN do is change their perspective so that they can fully understand you know what yes this world is evil, its terrible, far more evil than we could even imagine, but you know what, through conquering that fear a little more every day and through bearing that pain you not only become stronger but you actually find meaning in your life. many people think the meaning in life is to find happiness, thats actually not necessarily true. because suffering is inevitable, we all suffer, we cant decide how much we can suffer all we can really do is pick our vices, and even then its not fully in control. everyone dies, everyone gets hurt, these are aspects of life that dont just dissapear and chasing a forever fleeting comfort or happiness is the quickest way to insanity as its almost impossible. its about finding something actually WORTH the suffering and worth the pain, through that we transform. not sure if I can send links here but I'll try to post a clip.


I hated benzos for a long time myself, they really destroyed a good year of my life in the earlier years, and I've seen a lot of people go terribly wrong with them. it got the point where I wouldn't even hang out with you if I knew you were on or recently were on benzos, when my friends would call me I could hear it over the phone, I'd say youre barred out dude call me later. I really despised those things, and they do have quite a caveat to them. but we can never blame the drug, because then we dont really solve the problem we just limit ourselves. which arguably is the right decision for most people, benzos absolutely destroy lives. but they also save lives. we can't blame the drug on an inherent flaw in our psychology, we CAN however point out the massive correlation between this drugs use and peoples sure fire way down this path. the two are very different though. this is exactly the rational that happened with psychedelics that has just halted us in decades of pharmacological progress.

I watched it bro. Really interesting, thanks for the recommendation. I would say that I have it 'easy' in the sense that I've got a faith that I'm totally convinced by. I think it allows me to fully put my trust in the hands of a higher power, I feel like if I didn't have my religion (Islam) I would struggle with that. Of course I totally get why other people aren't convinced by the same thing as I am and that's fine!

I think I agree with everything you said, except the point about the drugs not being at fault. I feel as if the drug is at fault, because of how it affects our reward systems. I do feel like at the end of the day, we are animals and our decision making isn't really independent of the automatic chemical processes going on in our brains. I feel like a drug that fundamentally alters our brain chemistry is at fault, because by administering the drug we're just doing what is natural. Of course that doesn't excuse the decision maker entirely, but I think it does justify seeing the drug as something evil. Perhaps this doesn't apply to benzos, but it definitely applies to some drugs.

I feel as though benzos should be withdrawn from the market entirely, except for sporadic and short term use. Meaning, I believe that for chronic use, it should only be dispensed 1-2 times a week for people that have demonstrated responsible usage. I believe that for the general public, benzos should only be administered 'in office' once or twice a week. Meaning that a long acting dose is administered in a clinic by a nurse. I know this is a hugely unpopular opinion but I feel like it's necessary. I definitely believe that liberal philosophy should absolutely not extend to the medical profession. Giving people the freedom to exercise autonomous decisions shouldn't get in the way of ethical medical practice.

The general public has proven that it cannot handle sporadic use of medications, and the level of suffering that could be mitigated is huge. I feel like people will use the counter argument that not giving people the medicines that they need, can itself cause suffering. It's a weak argument because for one there are good alternatives like etifoxine. Second, if a person isnt willing to come into the clinic to have their medicines administered, then they can't really be suffering. Sure I can use willpower to control myself, but others can't.

Anyway excuse the rambling, I'm a bit stimmed out lol. Overall I agree that benzos save lives, but I believe that they can still save lives with a much tighter regulatory system. The system in the US is ridiculous in my opinion. Btw I also disagree with countries like the UK that don't administer benzos to young people with anxiety at all. This is extreme in the other direction, I feel like there is a middle ground. 1-2 times a week administration of benzos is a lot more ethical than forcing horrible SSRIs on people like they do here in the UK.

 

[lunchbox333]

I watched it bro. Really interesting, thanks for the recommendation. I would say that I have it 'easy' in the sense that I've got a faith that I'm totally convinced by. I think it allows me to fully put my trust in the hands of a higher power, I feel like if I didn't have my religion (Islam) I would struggle with that. Of course I totally get why other people aren't convinced by the same thing as I am and that's fine!

I think I agree with everything you said, except the point about the drugs not being at fault. I feel as if the drug is at fault, because of how it affects our reward systems. I do feel like at the end of the day, we are animals and our decision making isn't really independent of the automatic chemical processes going on in our brains. I feel like a drug that fundamentally alters our brain chemistry is at fault, because by administering the drug we're just doing what is natural. Of course that doesn't excuse the decision maker entirely, but I think it does justify seeing the drug as something evil. Perhaps this doesn't apply to benzos, but it definitely applies to some drugs.

I feel as though benzos should be withdrawn from the market entirely, except for sporadic and short term use. Meaning, I believe that for chronic use, it should only be dispensed 1-2 times a week for people that have demonstrated responsible usage. I believe that for the general public, benzos should only be administered 'in office' once or twice a week. Meaning that a long acting dose is administered in a clinic by a nurse. I know this is a hugely unpopular opinion but I feel like it's necessary. I definitely believe that liberal philosophy should absolutely not extend to the medical profession. Giving people the freedom to exercise autonomous decisions shouldn't get in the way of ethical medical practice.

The general public has proven that it cannot handle sporadic use of medications, and the level of suffering that could be mitigated is huge. I feel like people will use the counter argument that not giving people the medicines that they need, can itself cause suffering. It's a weak argument because for one there are good alternatives like etifoxine. Second, if a person isnt willing to come into the clinic to have their medicines administered, then they can't really be suffering. Sure I can use willpower to control myself, but others can't.

Anyway excuse the rambling, I'm a bit stimmed out lol. Overall I agree that benzos save lives, but I believe that they can still save lives with a much tighter regulatory system. The system in the US is ridiculous in my opinion. Btw I also disagree with countries like the UK that don't administer benzos to young people with anxiety at all. This is extreme in the other direction, I feel like there is a middle ground. 1-2 times a week administration of benzos is a lot more ethical than forcing horrible SSRIs on people like they do here in the UK.

asalamaylekum lol

and don't get me wrong, drugs are part of the problem for sure, but simply banning a drug or putting regulations on it doesnt change the fact that there is still an underlying cause behind the use. we can't just blame the drug when there are still gaba receptors in our brain and that a large percentage of the human population is psychologically striving to stimulate them. we ban one and it goes to the next. we will never get to the spiritual root of the issue by putting physical bandaids and limitations over them. I think whats more to blame is the irresponsible prescribing of this drug, the irresponsible marketing of this drug especially in the earlier years, and the psychology of those chasing the relief as well as the society thats causing these issues in large amounts of people. all of these issues that helped cause what we are dealing with are correlated around the physical drug itself, but in reality stem from human behavior and human evil, rather than the drug itself doing all this. so I'm not necessarily pro benzos, I just don't think its fair for people who have abused them to blame the drug itself. the world isn't perfect, sometimes we have to work with what we have until theres something better.
much love

 

[candidsurprise]

asalamaylekum lol

and don't get me wrong, drugs are part of the problem for sure, but simply banning a drug or putting regulations on it doesnt change the fact that there is still an underlying cause behind the use. we can't just blame the drug when there are still gaba receptors in our brain and that a large percentage of the human population is psychologically striving to stimulate them. we ban one and it goes to the next. we will never get to the spiritual root of the issue by putting physical bandaids and limitations over them. I think whats more to blame is the irresponsible prescribing of this drug, the irresponsible marketing of this drug especially in the earlier years, and the psychology of those chasing the relief as well as the society thats causing these issues in large amounts of people. all of these issues that helped cause what we are dealing with are correlated around the physical drug itself, but in reality stem from human behavior and human evil, rather than the drug itself doing all this. so I'm not necessarily pro benzos, I just don't think its fair for people who have abused them to blame the drug itself. the world isn't perfect, sometimes we have to work with what we have until theres something better.
much love

haha are you muslim?

And yeah dude, I pretty much agree with you I think!

 

[EscapeFromFreedom]

Yes, I am still amazed that benzos have been around for 6 decades, yet people fall into benzo traps all over again, year after year. It's a cruel trap that can be avoided with more knowledge, but most people suffering from benzo liability usually aren't being believed, and they are the only people that can actually tell others what in the world is going on with these types of drugs. Wish people who had gotten sick from benzos or suffered greatly getting off of them weren't disbelieved and/or met with skepticism all the time.

 

[lunchbox333]

haha are you muslim?

naw im not