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Possible mechanism for testing concentrations of APAP in CWE solutions

headdah said:
dude that pain might be ur kidneys YO.

cuz i get the exact same pain. sometimes on both sides. sometimes one side.
and i know its from my K abuse. K PWNS kidney
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kidney pain is usually always on both sides and can manifest down to your balls - i hammered mine with GBL and had sore nuts from it after severe kidney pain.
was very intense, you would generally notice when you actually damage them enough to feel pain, its not something i wish on anyone.

my liver function recently showed that my liver is struggling at the moment, but it doesn't hurt at all, but i've also hammered that with G once and had yellowing of my skin before any liver pain, but would be interesting to know at what point pain occurs.

and to add to the stomach ulcer info, you def notice when you have done some damage. i've had two before, as mr blonde says, at first its easy to confuse as hunger as symptoms can be relieved when eating - as long as you dont eat something that will cause a larger than normal amount of stomach acid, ie. highly processed meat. a dull burning, aching type pain is what is felt, but if you keep doing what caused the damage, it turns into a sharp constant burning pain which can then become hard to heal without meds to reduce stomach acid production. again, a very painful experience.

generally, your organs will let you know in fashion when you are doing them damage.

sorry for going off topic, i hope this works out with good results as it would be a great advantage to just assuming how successful CWE are done.
 
The reaction between NaOH and APAP leaves you with sodium acetate and the oxy-amino-benzene remnants. The remnants I believe will still form a salt with the sodium so you may have to acidify as well depending on what compound is a different colour. I feel like the level of brown could be heavily dependent on temperature as well making a few more variables then just a simple indicator.
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The science madness thread says that adding HCl then heating the APAP solution will hydrolyze it to p-aminophenol hydrochloride, which then reacts with H2O2 to produce the same color change.

In the OP of that thread, the user states that p-aminophenol plus a base (I assume a strong base) produces a 'dark, almost black and turbid) color, whereas placing it in an acidic solution protects it from oxidation and results in a slow change to purple when H2O2 is added.

Thanks for the link, I'll do some reading later on today... temperature affecting the reaction speed is also a good point, it's a variable I didn't consider. I think I have a thermometer around somewhere so I can test it with exact temperatures. :)
 
Haha I knew I knew sodium acetate from somewhere. It's also hot ice which is an old science experiment fun to play around with. Anyways here's a thread of people making it from APAP.
http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/41413-sodium-hydroxide-acetaminophen/

The consensus is
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forms sodium oxyphenylamine. With acid added then p- aminophenol.

I feel like if the first source (which is a little convoluted for me to understand) took p-aminophenol and added say NaOH they would have gotten Na-oxyphenylamine with their color change? So if we take APAP and add NaOH as above it converts to p-aminophenol and color change? That would fall into place nicely though I don't know if that reaction works both ways as the second source never mentions color.

I'd also add here that according to the wikipedia page on 4-Aminophenol the NFPA 704 Health Code is 2 which is pretty much don't eat after testing.

I think I'm pretty tapped out from here on out and I'd say throw this info in ADD or just try it out and see what happens :D
Unless of course other people with more mad chem skills than I jump in...and I have a degree in chemical engineer ha! :\
 
I'm sure I've mentioned some of these before...

Check out Spot test reagents; a reference for forensic chemists for reagent reactions. You'll see that Froehde's Reagent reacts with paracetamol but not codeine. It's made from conc H2SO4 and sodium molybdate.

I'm sure I also mentioned the Clarke's entries: Ferric Chloride—blue; Folin–Ciocalteu Reagent—blue; Liebermann's Test—violet; Nessler's Reagent—brown (slow).

When using NaOH, you'd need to establish whether colour variation will accurately represent concentration and whether there are secondary reactions which will alter the absorbance, amd possibly the wavelengths absorbed by the initial product (both difficult without a spectrophotometer at least). It's also important when establishing mechanism that the NaOH doesn't contain metal impurities, even in ppm concs, so the reaction should be done using lab grade NaOH, at least in the first experiments. You also need to establish that other typical components of a cwe don't interfere with the reaction, and with high pH conditions, any salts present will de-protonate.
 
Thanks for the replies p_d and amapola. :)

I was going to experiment with this today but I've been hit by a massive migraine. :(

Hopefully I'll have time next weekend to start this project.
 
Much better now, lol.

Damn it, I hate when I have a good idea then am so busy I don't get around to it... I think this weekend I will probably give it a shot, just need the NaOH. Any ideas on how to set up my experiment so as to make it more... legitimate? For lack of a better word. :)
 
Hmmm good question. For simplicity's sake, and all that HR fun, we're going to want no pre-processing and SATP. I also think always 100ml of solution for all colour comparisons. If people want to use less liquid then they can dilute and compare colour afterwords.

The best way I see of doing this is taking filtering out of the equation. Just make multiple 100ml solutions with varying amounts of pills dissolved; add an appropriate (maybe dick around with everything a little first) and consistent amount of lye; and see if there is a difference in the colour.

I think these results will be highly dependent on brand as well but this is more proof of concept and people could calibrate their own if they wanted.
 
^ Well I'll give it a shot on Sunday and post pictures in this thread. Hopefully. No seriously I will do it this time. :)

For the sake of consistency, I will use the one brand this round and then possibly look at different brands (just paracetamol) and how they react. Then compare inactive ingredients.
 
I for one am looking forward to the results. The only slight regret I have about not finishing school is the fact I missed out on learning chemistry/having access to a lab-like environment.
 
^ Get some chemistry textbooks and build your own lab! ;)

I have seen some really ghetto set ups before, from glass jar beakers to a bucket-of-ice with copper tubing condenser, to a tomato sauce bottle for an addition funnel.
 
^ that made me lol.

I have watched a fair few videos on the Khan Acedemy site, which have been great. I'd love to be able to read text books as well as whatever current horror/sci fi book/series I'm reading. At present though, reading one book a chapter or three at bed time is all I can manage due to work/family commitments.
 
^ That looks like an interesting site. :)

I'm working full time currently and going through several textbooks on chemistry, biochemistry, pharmacology and pretty soon I'll need to brush up on my maths skills. It's pretty hard to fit it all in, I'm coming up with a schedule for study though so I can do it all.
 
I'm working full time currently and going through several textbooks on chemistry, biochemistry, pharmacology and pretty soon I'll need to brush up on my maths skills.
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Really good to see you heading in this direction Mr Blonde
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A good maths text is a must. Besides molarity and molar concentration (which is simple arithmetic anyway), probably the most important thing to learn for all 3 of the above mentioned subjects is the Henderson–Hasselbalch equation. Learn it "backwards". However, there are instances where this alone doesn't cut it, and pH needs to be calculated using a quadratic (here's a couple of good examples - explanation of acid base problems ).

Calculus is also a must for those subjects if you're aiming at a full understanding of each discipline, (and unless things have changed in the last few years, then fundamental analytical chem will have you doing all sorts of derivative plots, and inorganic chem certainly needs it, particularly when looking at molecular orbitals). However, if you competed year 12B or C maths (and still remember it), none of this should be too difficult. Oh, and a good knowledge of stats is important if doing analytical chem, biochem, pharmacology etc. Even aspects of synthetic polymer chemistry requires stats.

Nothing beats a Uni course when studying this stuff. I'm sure you'd piss in with a STAT test Mr Blonde. My advice is to get hold of a few past STAT papers or example papers so you know what you'd be in for.
 
^ I did Maths B in Year 11, but fell ill in Year 12 and that combined with the difficulty I have with maths anyway meant I began failing and then dropped to Maths A.

I'm aiming to go to university next year though, and am preparing for it. I probably should find a maths tutor to help me out.

THanks for the tip on the STAT test, I might order the example questions book. :)
 
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