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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Population Control

Agriculture really isn't my forte, but aren't there hypothetical alternatives to simply tilling over arable land or mowing down forests to access more? Rather than using one dimensional farming techniques, what about harnessing our ability to build upwards in creating many story urban agricultural centers? With the use of hydroponics, synthetic nutrient systems etc, we could certainly minimize the amount of fertile soil necessary to yield more produce and also drastically minimize the amount of necessary land. A key issue here would be water, of course. But again, with more capital, technological investment and manpower invested in water reclaimation it seems like we could address the issue.

Cost for starters. I'm all for urban agriculture but you can't realistically expect the people in the slums of Mumbai or Lagos to be able to afford such energy and cost intensive means of production - hydroponics require electricity, moving vast amounts of water against gravity requires a huge amount of energy, synthetic nutrients are expensive and also energy intensive to manufacture. I mean, sure, here in the West we don't blink at paying a 50%-80% mark-up for tomatoes grown hydroponically but that could be a real problem for the vast majority of the world's population who spend a far greater share of their income on meeting basic food costs. Also, while growing up might work when it comes to crops that have a lot of yield per sq metre, I tend to think that the cereal crops that are the staples in our diets could be quite problematic in that they're all essentially grasses which by their very nature need a lot of room.

I'm talking here about sustaining the current population, or maybe the population size in the near future.

As for the distant future, can we expect birthrates to continue on course as they are now as global development continues or if the majority of the world were to be lifted out of poverty? This is why I asked earlier what factors lead to higher birthrates than others?. The answer seems to be things like wealth distribution and education, which is observable within American or Australian society as well as within a greater, global context. So are we really doomed if we were to hypothetically eliminate poor distribution of wealth and resources and poor (or even arbitrary) administration of capital?

Yes, well, sustaining a population size would require a complete and radical overhaul of our system of economic organisation - i.e. a post growth model of development. Not saying it can't/won't happen but the level of international organisation and overcoming of self-interest it would require doesn't fill me with much hope. I think we're going to accelerate into some serious hard limits before that happens, sadly.
 
Interesting One Thousand Words.. Am interested in starting something like that myself..

But I don't have the weather to grow all year round, nor the space.. I live in a two bedroom flat with two others and get about 2 hours of direct sunlight through smallish windows that could house about 4 pots each, half the size of the one in that pic.

Millions upon millions of people live in similar if not worse (for home growing) conditions to mine.. It's just not feasible.

Even if it were, that's only the food side of things covered (for now.. it still wouldn't be sustainable indefinitely), what about energy / power?
 
we have an energy surplus even without going into renewables.

why hasn't it been spread around to those who need it? i think you know why.
 
Interesting One Thousand Words.. Am interested in starting something like that myself..

But I don't have the weather to grow all year round, nor the space.. I live in a two bedroom flat with two others and get about 2 hours of direct sunlight through smallish windows that could house about 4 pots each, half the size of the one in that pic.

Millions upon millions of people live in similar if not worse (for home growing) conditions to mine.. It's just not feasible.

Even if it were, that's only the food side of things covered (for now.. it still wouldn't be sustainable indefinitely), what about energy / power?
Energy and power for what? Most of the planet can survive with very little electricity when you really think about it. If you eliminated transportation for most people what exactly are you powering?

It's no coincidence that the vast majority of the worlds poorest people live closer t the equator. No real need for heating when you don't need a jumper in winter. Energy consumption for the most part at the moment is terribly inefficient. The use of "free energy" sources such as solar wind and water is none existent for many because there is currently no market pressure to do so. Even harnessing kinetic energy of people's everyday movement could be used to power personal devices.
 
Another hard limit that is going to come home to bite in the not too distant future - around about the time global populations will be topping out at around 10 billion. Introducing: the phosphorous cycle

http://theconversation.com/peak-phosphorus-will-be-a-shortage-we-cant-stomach-25065

====================================================

Here’s the good news. We probably don’t have to worry about peak oil just yet, as it isn’t going to run out anytime soon. The bad news is, as the IPCC has recently reported, we can’t afford the costs of what liberating all that carbon into the Earth’s atmosphere would do to the climate. So we will have to leave it in the ground and come up with alternatives fast.

The really bad news is that we may not even have to worry about peak oil or dangerous climate change – instead we can fret over peak phosphorous. Unlike moving from our current dependence on fossil fuels, there is no alternative to phosphorus and if it runs out our global food production system would grind to a halt.

Phosphorus is present in all cells in all forms of life because it makes up part of the backbone of DNA – you can’t make DNA without phosphorus. We get our phosphorus by eating plants that have drawn up phosphorus through their roots, or by eating animals that ate the plants (or from expensive tablets).

Many plants do just fine by consuming the natural levels of phosphorus in the soil, but modern intensive farming methods quickly suck up phosphorus, which needs to be continually replaced. If you keep growing high yield crops on land that is irrigated with water and doused with pesticides, then you are going to come up against phosphorus limitation. And if you don’t plug that hole with fertilisers yields will dramatically decline.

Did farmers have this problem in the past? Yes, but they solved it in different ways. They fertilised their fields with phosphorus and nitrogen from animal waste. Manure – from horses, cows, pigs, or chickens – has the nitrogen, phosphorus and other goodies that plants need.

Farmers would also change the types of crops grown on a particular field and leave it fallow for a season to recover. This system, crop rotation, has been used successfully since ancient times, and improved from two to three and four-field rotations during the middle ages. There are many good things about it, but in the quest for ever greater short term crop yields, the modern system of intensive monoculture (growing the same crop all the time) farming wins.

But it wins because we make up for the inefficiencies of the crop-rotation system (different crops, different planting times, unproductive fallow years) by providing all the benefits it brings to the fields in the form of added fertilisers, pesticides and irrigation. All these elements of the agricultural Green Revolution requires large amounts of energy.

Imagine how much energy it takes to dig up phosphorus-bearing minerals, grind, and physically and chemically process it. Then transport it many miles, load it onto a spreader and tow it behind a tractor so that it finally gets onto a field. Digging up and burning stored solar energy (in the form of fossil fuels) allows us to extract phosphorus and put that onto fields in order to increase the amount of solar energy-using organisms (plants) we can grow and then eat.

The chemical crunch

If, or rather when, easily accessible phosphorus runs out we will either have to eat less, or decrease the amount lost from the system by increasing the quantity of phosphorus that is recycled. Recycling phosphorus from human and animal waste – back to manure again – or reducing the amount washed off from farmland in runoff will also take energy, probably a lot of energy due to the need for significant new infrastructure. We have the energy sources for this now, but will we when phosphorus scarcity really starts to bite? And when will that be?

Unsurprisingly it depends on who you ask. Upper estimates of mineral phosphorus resources (known concentrations in the ground) are about 300 years. Lower estimates for reserves (known concentrations in the ground that are technically and economically feasible to extract) are a few decades. The only thing certain is that limitations in phosphorus supply will increase the cost of phosphorus fertilisers and so the cost of food.

And here’s the double whammy: some estimates give a date of peak phosphorus around the middle of this century which is when the global population will reach its possible maximum of nine billion. This is also when Sir John Beddington, a previous UK Chief Scientific Officer argues that humanity will need to generate approximately 50% more power, gain access to 30% more fresh water and grow 50% more food. All while significantly reducing our total carbon emissions.

Just when we have the greatest number of mouths to feed in all of human history, our reserves of easy to obtain, low cost phosphorus may start to run out. The worse case scenario is that many people will starve. Avoiding that outcome will require more recycling and more efficient farming practices. Getting up and running on that will require energy. Where will that low carbon energy come from in the middle of the century?

Will we starve or will we cook the climate? OK, that’s a false dichotomy. We could instead look at the current situation in which one billion people go hungry while another billion overeat and consider alternative scenarios in which we all get access to healthy and nutritious food. That wouldn’t require breakthroughs in fusion power or wonder GM crops but something seemingly much more challenging: our ability to share the Earth’s resources more equitably.
 
Don't you have anything better to do with your life other than copying and pasting articles from other websites every day on to a bluelight sub forum with about 10 regular posters?

Seriously what is your motive to waste so much time of your life? You do realize you are accomplishing absolutely nothing right? It's pretty sad.
 
Don't you have anything better to do with your life other than copying and pasting articles from other websites every day on to a bluelight sub forum with about 10 regular posters?

Seriously what is your motive to waste so much time of your life? You do realize you are accomplishing absolutely nothing right? It's pretty sad.

A rather redundant question I would have thought: clearly if I had anything better to do I'd be doing it, wouldn't I? As for wasting "so much of my life" - how much time does it take YOU to copy and paste something? Takes me all of about ten seconds. Whatever you're doing you're clearly doing it wrong. I tend to hope that ten seconds here or there out of my life won't actually represent much of my total alloted time here on this mortal coil - unless you know something I don't and I really only have seconds to live 8o
 
^ don't you have anything better to do than be a bitter anti-intellectual troll?

Again i guess bitpattern cant speak for himself but i too have presented this question and he told me its his form of entertainment. ya. ill just let that one sit for a moment.
 
Again i guess bitpattern cant speak for himself but i too have presented this question and he told me its his form of entertainment. ya. ill just let that one sit for a moment.

Well why do you post here if not for entertainment? I'm curious because, frankly, I can't see any other reason for doing what we all do. I mean, if you've got some other perverse motivation for coming here and getting your knickers in a knot I'd probably find that a lot more disturbing than if you were coming here to kill a few minutes and entertain yourself.
 
I wrote my PhD thesis on why America and The Lounge are shit and full of dullards but I'm not posting it here cos I don't have time.

PS i already politely asked you to fuck off
 
I guess we have different views on entertainment for ourselves but i dont come here to entertain. I originally came to this site cause of interest in drugs and harm reduction and helping people.
 
Don't you have anything better to do with your life other than copying and pasting articles from other websites every day on to a bluelight sub forum with about 10 regular posters?

Seriously what is your motive to waste so much time of your life? You do realize you are accomplishing absolutely nothing right? It's pretty sad.
Knowledgeable people like bit_pattern and others are able to find and gather (cut and paste) in one place articles here on topics that are interesting. Many of us don't have time or in some cases even the background to find and read all of this stuff on our own. So you can come here, read the articles in the thread, do some fact checking from other sources, comment, ask questions and because of ths unique format (and social media in general), go away knowing more about an issue than you might had you only read a single article in your daily newspaper. Then you can see how other people are becoming involved in grass-roots political/environmental/social activities. Also, bluelighters tend to be much more tolerant on drug use, so it's easier to post and comment here without being judged when drug-related topics come up. As for the small number of regular posters, even major newspapers that have an online comments section tend to have a relatively small number of regular, core posters for a given topic.
 
I guess we have different views on entertainment for ourselves but i dont come here to entertain. I originally came to this site cause of interest in drugs and harm reduction and helping people.

Wow. You're, like, changing the world, bro!

I originally came here for HR too (back in 2001), since then I've grown up and don't actually use drugs any more so prefer to talk about the things that interest me. Why does that bother you so much? And why, if you're here for HR, do you spend so much time in this subforum if the views and opinions of others bothers you so much? Why don't you go and change the world in one of the drug forums?
 
I had my vas deferens chopped. I personally never want children, IMO the world already has to many people and to many earth destroying habits.


Boy this thread really derailed
 
Don't you have anything better to do with your life other than copying and pasting articles from other websites every day on to a bluelight sub forum with about 10 regular posters?

Seriously what is your motive to waste so much time of your life? You do realize you are accomplishing absolutely nothing right? It's pretty sad.

To be fair tho

ArCi
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,622

bit_pattern
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,456

It's all about how one wastes their time
 
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