Police Brutality Thread

[aemetha]

Also to add, I don’t think a fair verdict was even possible here. Now that they televise the whole trial, and the media openly doxxes jurors that don’t come to the verdict they favor. It’s horrifying, but it’s the natural progression of clown world that I have come to accept.

While I disagree with your conclusion that the verdict was unfair, I do agree with you about public trials. I actually believe all trials should take place behind closed doors with sequestering any time there is potential for a jury to be tainted. Trials can be made public after the fact for the purpose of ensuring fairness. I don't think the public spectacle helps arrive at the best decisions.

 

[Droppersneck]

While I disagree with your conclusion that the verdict was unfair, I do agree with you about public trials. I actually believe all trials should take place behind closed doors with sequestering any time there is potential for a jury to be tainted. Trials can be made public after the fact for the purpose of ensuring fairness. I don't think the public spectacle helps arrive at the best decisions.

This seems like the obvious thing to do right? I’d have a few month cool off point till they release details like names etc. The media has openly doxxed people and caused them legit harm, in many different ways. I just put myself in that situation, and think about what I would need to be impartial and fair.

 

[Droppersneck]

Chauvin will have his chance to appeal his verdict in the next couple of years. His legal team will undoubtedly bring up the concerns you mentioned, but to that point, the burden of proof will be on him this time. That is why appeals are so hard win in the judicial system, and are remarkably rare.

His lawyers have a unique situation (where his trail has been so publicized), to make the case that he was not afforded a fair trial because of groups of people that had already convicted him before he had stood trial, because of this bias in the court of public opinion.

I can assure you that neither you or me will give a shit about Chauvin’s ability to have a fair trial years from now, when his appeal is heard in court.

Yup I thought about this, he will definitely appeal, and while the burden of proof is high I think he has a good shot of winning. The prosecutors got political with the charges imo, they also probably didn’t think they would get murder. With Floyd’s heart capacity from clogged arteries coupled with drug history he wasn’t long for the world regardless. All that said I think chauvin should get lesser charges and that the event is all around tragic.

 

[Xorkoth]

There's something I find odd about this whole thing.

Why do I never hear about white people being fatally shot by police?
It happens twice as often as Black people being shot.

I guess you can't spin it as racism, so it doesn't sell papers.

I agree with this, the media is certainly choosing which cases to report on based on selling headlines. I think we can all agree that the media is exacerbating the toxic narrative in this country in all sorts of ways. I'm still glad that these incidents are being reported though, but I definitely think that ALL incidents of police misconduct should be reported on and talked about. Without going into the racial implications on way or the other, there is a serious problem with police brutality in this country and it needs to be addressed. For many people, that is the point of this whole thing. It is to me.

In general, the hyperfocus on race in nearly every aspect of cultural examination these days is muddying the waters, even when it is valid

In the USA, every single police officer would actively ruin any of your lives just for being a drug user.

That's not true, I have gotten caught by the police for drugs more than once and never has my life been ruined, each time I was given a chance. Of course there are some reasons why, I fit the sterotype that those cops had of someone they had sympathy for and wanted to see "turn my life around", rather than someone they wanted to put away as a menace to society.

You misquote me my friend, I never said that, him resisting arrest and fighting against being arrested and the drugs in his system got him killed.

Did you not see the defense lawyer when he showed the video footage? Chauvin didn't even have his nee on Floyd's neck,it was on his shoulder blade.

Why isn't the EMS being questioned on why it took so long for them to get there?

Don't misconstrue my words, I've had plenty of run ins with the police and never once resisted arrest or tried to fight back while under the influence, and I'm still here to type about it, I simply got cuffed and was whisked away to the holding cell or County jail and obeyed every order given to me by the police.

Wait, I'm, honestly confused. Weren't you arguing passionately earlier in this thread for Chauvin and all of the cops there with him to be equally charged for murder, and saying that they gave good cops a bad name?

Man seeing some of those jurors it’s not shocking the trial went the way it did. A very feelings based approach was clearly taken. Manslaughter would have been the proper charge, and then we would have also gotten the riots. A win win for everyone, but I’m holding out hope riots will happen once the night time temps rise. Wonder if cops will take the knee to the neck out of their manual now. And some of the brainlet takes from the expert witnesses, about the meth canceling out his three times fentanyl OD level, had me laughing pretty hard.

So you want there to be riots? Why would you want that?

Also his levels of fentanyl were lower than they use for anesthesia, not 3 times a lethal dose:

"The estimated lethal dose of fentanyl in humans is 2 mg. The recommended serum concentration for analgesia is 1–2 ng/ml and for anaesthesia it is 10–20 ng/ml."
source: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/public...ethal dose of,poly-substance use was involved.

Floyd's level was tested at 11 ng/mL. This is a little over half the maximum amount for anesthesia, and in an addicted/tolerant person, particularly, would be far from lethal. I'm sure there are numerous BL posters posting in BDD/OD right now with higher levels than that going on.

 

[dalpat077]

Good morning all.

Well. There sure does seem to be a distinct turnaround on this thread overnight. Seems like it's all coming together nice and the whole shit show is starting to show some signs of it being worth the trouble. Nice. (And no I'm not being sarcastic). Some good coming out of this now. If only here.

Obviously I'd like to continue a little more here (not to upset the apple cart or the delicate balance but there are still some things bothering me and I hope they're worth something to the discussion).

First things first:

You realize that Officer Chauvin has been put on suicide watch? Personal opinion: best thing he could do. In much the same way as the Japanese fall of their swords. And that will set the cat among the pigeons for sure. This aside from the fact that life, as he knew it anyway, is over. It'll give some people pause (maybe even some in high places).

I'll let that sink in with your dinner (or in some cases your breakfast) while I get to my next point!

 

[HOOH]

If you watch the video I posted George Floyd eats his fentanyl and overdoses from it.

AFAIK, he only had about 0.02mg worth of fentanyl in his system.

It's clear that it wasn't an OD.

 

[cduggles]

George Floyd eats his fentanyl

when George Floyd shoved those drugs up his ass.

Which one was it? We all know ROA matters!

 

[dalpat077]

@PriestTheyCalledHim.

I have so badly wanted to come out in support of most of your posts. But I've stopped short because of your take on the drugs issue. Not that I'm steering clear of the drugs issue itself. There's been some dancing around here on this thread when it comes to substance abuse and something needs to be said about that. And it may as well be me.

I realize I have more time on their hands than most at the moment and I tend to go down rabbit holes. For better or for worse. Point is: I try hard to look for proper documentation as opposed to website information and articles or opinion pieces. Too often these sites are slanted one way or the other.

I mention the above because I've looked at Mr. Floyd's actual autopsy reports. More than once now (last night being the last read through). And there's stuff there that's bugging me. And it makes me wonder about these jurors and the outcome of this trial.

Anyway. More than once once on this thread have I seen confusion when it comes to Fentanyl levels. Especially when it comes to the difference between the LD50 and blood level concentrations. There's a very big difference between the two.

Personal opinion: Mr. Floyd did not have high enough levels in his blood for any single substance to have been lethal on its own. Especially not if he had built up tolerance (and which, hate to bring it up, based on his lifestyle would come as no surprise). In addition: these levels highly individual specific. There's numerous papers published on the topic and lethal blood concentrations vary dramatically (from my research, and not just now by the way i.e. I spent a LOT of time on this last year) i.e. lethal concentrations can vary between 2.5ng/ml to as high as 58ng/ml and the mean being deemed as around 14ng/ml. I put it to you that 11ng/ml in Mr. Floyd's case wasn't enough to be fatal. Furthermore: he'd already started to metabolize the Fentanyl and this not common in fatal overdoses.

However and as we know: there were other substances found but also at low levels. Do I think that the drugs on their own killed him? Nope. Do I think they played a part? Yes. Mr. Floyd wasn't the most healthy of individuals in spite of him appearing to be so. Couple the drugs, with his underlying conditions, and the stress, and I think you're a lot closer to his cause of death.

What I find odd though: there is no mention at all of any neck injuries whatsoever. Now I'm no medical professional or pathologist or expert. But if there was such pressure being exerted on his neck: that surely would lead to some bruising (whatever the correct terminology may be) (if nothing else). And given that he died in that position: such wouldn't simply disappear as if by magic. There's also no evidence at all of damage to his trachea or anything else related.

Why does this mean anything at all? Because I fail to see how any reasonable human being could not come to the conclusion that Officer Floyd and his actions directly led to the demise of Mr. Floyd. At best: his actions were a contributing factor. And his game plan, albeit possibly questionable, was to keep Mr. Floyd subdued until the, already late, EMS arrived. This outcome of this trial, and the charges, were based on emotion and fear. From where I sit: at best manslaughter would have been prudent. But certainly not murder. And nothing falls within the scope of lethal or excessive force having been used.

In formulating the above and in just looking at some of the overnight posts: it has me wondering if this entire jury system shouldn't be called into question. Fair enough: it doesn't affect me at all. Just giving you my opinion. But in a case such as this: I fail to see how it would have been a) possible to find an impartial jury and b) because of this jurors that would go to the trouble of looking at proper evidence and asking questions (as opposed to being flimflammed by experts that they could not understand or make sense of or make rational decisions for fear of the outcome). The mere fact that they only deliberated for mere hours, in a case as important and high profile as this, and not to mention complex (or should have been perceived as such) speaks volumes.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

@dalpat077

Chauvin wouldn't have put his knee on a 90 year old woman's neck. He looked at Floyd and made certain assumptions. There was no reason to restrain him like that. Chauvin isn't qualified to diagnose medical conditions. Therefore, police should apply restraint in a way that doesn't kill people who have health problems.

Having health problems doesn't sensibly mean that you are exempt from police brutality; police brutality shouldn't occur.

I'm somewhat in the middle on this whole thing, but I'm not at all confused about whether or not what Chauvin did was wrong. I don't think it was murder. I also agree that the drugs and his health were most likely contributing factors... but what does that really mean?

Unhealthy people don't deserve to die (by police using excessive force) any more than healthy people deserve to die.

If you get into a fight with someone who has stage 4 cancer (and you don't know that they have cancer) it doesn't make any difference if you accidentally kill them by beating the living shit out of them. It's still murder.

I think Floyd is a piece of shit and I'm happy to admit that I don't care (at all) that he's dead... but that doesn't change reality. There was no reason to keep restraining him like that for so long, particularly when he was saying he couldn't breathe... and even more so after he passed out.

He deserves the manslaughter charge, but the sentence (for manslaughter) is too harsh.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

What I find odd though: there is no mention at all of any neck injuries whatsoever.

This I agree with you on.

The coroner (or one of the expert witnesses) offered an explanation. They said something like: if they were kneeling in church, they wouldn't end up with bruises on their knees... which, to me, seems like a poor analogy. You would think if a grown man is kneeling all his weight on your neck for ten minutes, there would be some evidence of it.

I fail to see how it would have been a) possible to find an impartial jury and b) because of this jurors that would go to the trouble of looking at proper evidence and asking questions (as opposed to being flimflammed by experts that they could not understand or make sense of or make rational decisions for fear of the outcome). The mere fact that they only deliberated for mere hours, in a case as important and high profile as this, and not to mention complex (or should have been perceived as such) speaks volumes.

Quoted for truth.

 

[dalpat077]

I just saw the references to Mr. Floyd shoving stuff up his backside.

See my post above. Believe me: he was examined from tip to toe (and then some). Believe me: had he stuck anything up his backside, swallowed anything, or stuck anything in his ear: the pathologists would have found the same.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

If he shoved it up his ass, he would have died before it had a chance to get into his bloodstream (so it wouldn't be detectable on a serum or a urine test) and, when people die: they shit themselves.

The coroner isn't going to root around in shit for something that might look like undissolved drugs.

 

[dalpat077]

@dalpat077

Chauvin wouldn't have put his knee on a 90 year old woman's neck. He looked at Floyd and made certain assumptions. There was no reason to restrain him like that. Chauvin isn't qualified to diagnose medical conditions. Therefore, police should apply restraint in a way that doesn't kill people who have health problems.

Having health problems doesn't sensibly mean that you are exempt from police brutality; police brutality shouldn't occur.

I'm somewhat in the middle on this whole thing, but I'm not at all confused about whether or not what Chauvin did was wrong. I don't think it was murder. I also agree that the drugs and his health were most likely contributing factors... but what does that really mean?

Unhealthy people don't deserve to die (by police using excessive force) any more than healthy people deserve to die.

If you get into a fight with someone who has stage 4 cancer (and you don't know that they have cancer) it doesn't make any difference if you accidentally kill them by beating the living shit out of them. It's still murder.

I think Floyd is a piece of shit and I'm happy to admit that I don't care (at all) that he's dead... but that doesn't change reality. There was no reason to keep restraining him like that for so long, particularly when he was saying he couldn't breathe... and even more so after he passed out.

He deserves the manslaughter charge, but the sentence (for manslaughter) is too harsh.

I'm quoting you here because you've brought up some points which I've been TRYING to get to (but you dudes are too fast for me)!

Without rehashing things yet again (or maybe I don't have a choice).

Agreed about the 90 year old woman. But then she wouldn't have been struggling and kicking up a fuss either (in all probability anyway i.e. I've watched a police video where some woman, close to 80 years old, was quite capable and willing of giving the officers a good run for their money) (and she got arrested by the way).

Somewhat in the middle? That's what I was referring to in my first post today. There seems to be, now, a sort of coming together of the minds here. Or shall we say that those pushing hard from either side seem to be coming back from the outer edges (which includes me) (and why I mentioned yesterday that @Blueberry_87's exchange with me the other day gave me pause).

You of all people know that I come out guns blazing first. And ask questions afterward! But one of the reasons my being a law enforcement officer wouldn't exactly be a service to the public!

Point being and after that exchange: in spite of my earlier rantings and ravings and statements to the contrary I don't think anybody DESERVES to die under these circumstances. Nor do I WISH them dead. This after much careful thought of course. HOWEVER: if that be the end result well, then, so be it. In each of these cases: the unfortunates, for whatever their reasons, did not behave rationally or in a manner that was prudent given the circumstances. Do I CARE that they've been expedited as a result? Nope. And I'm not even taking into account the way they conducted their lives previously or what they may have become. Factor this into the equation and I care even less.

As for this "I can't breathe" business? I'm not sold on the premise I'm afraid. As has already been discussed: he started that shit before Officer Chauvin was on the scene. And there is nothing at all in the autopsy reports to suggest any damage or compression at all to his chest, trachea, or anything else related thereto. This said: obviously I could be way off of the mark. But this didn't come close to murder whichever way you slice it.

The rest we will be able to debate until we both die of natural causes and we probably will still not agree. The underlying health conditions of any individual, unless behaving outwardly erratic or unreasonable, cannot be known to an officer and can therefore have no bearing on the matter. And as I've stated (and wondered about at first): it's pretty clear to me what Officer Chauvin's game plan was. Was it the correct course of action? With hindsight quite possibly not. But he did NOT knowingly and willfully cause the death of Mr. Floyd and, as some have surmised here, was simply going out of his way to show off or to prove a point.

 

[dalpat077]

I think the point you might be making is that the most dangerous thing in America is neither black people nor the police, it’s the discourse.

I don’t think so. He seems more intent on trying to deconstruct it to highlight the underlying reality.

These two posts are poignant and basically what I'm saying today now.

If nothing else, and while the system hasn't been changed, nor will be changed, as a result of the interactions here: from where I sit there's been a shift on both sides of the arguments. And I think everybody here has done a better job of analyzing and considering many different factors and coming a little bit closer to reality than that which is presented in the media and which is resulting in mob mentality in real life.

 

[cduggles]

The coroner (or one of the expert witnesses) offered an explanation. They said something like: if they were kneeling in church, they wouldn't end up with bruises on their knees... which, to me, seems like a poor analogy. You would think if a grown man is kneeling all his weight on your neck for ten minutes, there would be some evidence of it.

Just for accuracy:

When asked about why the autopsy report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office showed no bruises on Floyd’s neck, Tobin [an unpaid physician for the prosecution] explained that he wouldn’t expect bruising because the contact was static: “When I go to church, I sit on a hard bench … I don’t get bruising on my bottom.”

pm me for the link. It’s Forbes, which has problems for some reason.

 

[cduggles]

From the same Forbes article:
David Isenschmid, a forensic toxicologist from the lab in Pennsylvania that tested Floyd’s blood. Isenschmid testified that in addition to 11 nanograms per milliliter of fentanyl, NMS Labs found norfentanyl, a metabolized version of the drug, in Floyd’s body at his time of death. Victims of overdoses rarely have norfentanyl in their blood, Isenschmid testified.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

When asked about why the autopsy report from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office showed no bruises on Floyd’s neck, Tobin [an unpaid physician for the prosecution] explained that he wouldn’t expect bruising because the contact was static: “When I go to church, I sit on a hard bench … I don’t get bruising on my bottom.”

I still think it's a bad analogy.

I would not expect bruising on my "bottom" because I am displacing weight across the backrest, my ass and my legs. The body is designed to sustain weight like this. It is not designed to sustain a 140 pound man kneeling on your neck. When I am sitting, I do not apply force. God knows how many pounds of force Chauvin was applying. They appear (to me) to be totally different situations.

 

[cduggles]

I still think it's a bad analogy.

I would not expect bruising on my "bottom" because I am displacing weight across the backrest, my ass and my legs. The body is designed to sustain weight like this. It is not designed to sustain a 140 pound man kneeling on your neck. When I am sitting, I do not apply force. God knows how many pounds of force Chauvin was applying. They appear (to me) to be totally different situations.

It would depend on the surface area of the contact and the amount of pressure needed to cause oxygen loss sufficient for fatal deoxygenation, I would think. And also, as Floyd died, his blood flow stopped, so I’m not sure there was adequate time for visible bruising.
This is why, as a juror, I would look to the experts to explain it to me. And I don’t blame them, as laypeople, for relying on their testimony.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Yeah, I'm not a doctor. I just think it's weird.

It just seems like there should be something detectable that indicates force being applied to such a soft and vulnerable area of the body. Not bruising necessarily. I guess (because I'm not medically trained) my assumption is they can perform miracles... so not being able to detect this sort of injury doesn't make sense to me.

Static weight can cause bruising. With enough force, you can crush bones.

 

[cduggles]

Agreed, I just don’t know if there was sufficient time. Bruising can take awhile to show.