Piracetam & Psychedelics

[uncomfortablepants]

yyeh, pyrrolidine derivs, esp piracetam are a weird bunch, with a fairly complex mech of action, including changing neuronal membrane fluidity, binding with phospholipids to form complexes of very specific topology, disinhibition of the VC and far greater firing rates across the CC.

thats a brimmin hatful of bioactivity - even if attempts at direct measurement of receptor binding activity have shown little. no wonder the perceived effects in the user include modification of action of a coadministered psychoactive agent - esp if you are also taking a cholinergic phospholipid complex (DMAE)alongside - and a psychedelic ontop.

but then, i find some psychedelics, esp some 2C derivs (2C-D in particular) and some 4-substitued trypts, are indeeed themselves nootropics of an entirely different order of magnitude - in nootropic doses and with all proper disclaimers, of course.

as far as traditional nootropics go, there are a couple noteworthy ones besides of course the ones mentioned elsewhere on this board, so i'l just list my new and improved stack:

piracetam: ~3,000mg morning
l-phenylalanine: 1,000mg morning
caffeine: ~250mg via strong coffee in morning
selegeline: 5mg morning
centrophenoxine: 250mg morning
bromocriptine: 2.5mg morning
GHV (concentrated Gingko, Huperzine, Vinpocetine): 1 cap morning
ALA: 100mg morning
megapotency multivite, magnesium, tissue salts: afternoon
Hydergine: 2.5mg once weekly

now, suffice to say, it is very rare when anything above the Shulgin low dose range is required in re psychedelics for full flight effects, and often, doses 1/4 of the low range more than suffice.

Why hydergine once weekly? and what effects do you notice from bromocriptine?

 

[Xorkoth]

Damn nano, you're pretty much using them all :D

Well, obviously not. But that's a mighty stack. How does that work for you in your day-to-day life? I'm taking, in the morning:

piracetam - 1-1.5g
centrophenoxine - 500mg
(sometimes)pyritinol 400mg
choline citrate 300-500mg
hydergine 2.25-4.5mg

I'm a big fan. You say with your stack you require roughly 4 times less of a material? Does it change the character of the experience in any way? Since I've only had two real 2C-E experiences, I cannot be sure whether the nootropics I took beforehand altered the character of the experience, or if the increased effects were accountable for the dramatic difference in the nature of effects experienced.

 

[tadfish]

even with caffine the efects are increased i have noticed it withs E and not so much with acid.

 

[tadfish]

what do you guys think of hydergine. i have been taking vinocetine and pyritnol and picamilon not sure about spelling, with racetams oxi and piracetam. is hydergine that good every body seems to use it

 

[yaesutom]

Hey nanobrain,

If you ever get a chance to hunt down some pure 2C-TFM... man.. I had a very small sample of some pure -tfm, took like.. ~1mg first time, my first thoughts were "nootropic". Also something about it reminds me of DMT, the fluidness of movement - not quite DMT but maybe 1/10th its fluidity. Focus.. Really hope someday its reintroduced to the RC market.

 

[nanobrain]

^2C-TFM was the bomb! yes, very nootropic even in 1mg doses. and clearheaded - reminds me of some of the furan derivs. who knows, we may get lucky.

nootropics definitely colour the psychedelic experience, being a metabolic navigator of sorts for over 20 years, i am well familiar with the nuances of every substance introduced into the system, even in physiologically minute levels bordering on homeopathic.

piracetam and especially selegeline change the nature of the experience to a great extent both quantitatively as in potency of dose and qualitatively - and much caution is advised if using piracetam w/psychs, or indeed, any other cerebroactivator.

combining with selegeline is not recommended for anyone, unless, and again i state this with utmost urgency, you are completely and thoroughly versed with pharmakodynamics of each and every substance on its own in your system, as the consequences of underestimating the importance of this can indeed be fatal.

hydergine not too often, i find it has some decentralising properties.

bromocripine effects - well, for one thing, i notice absolutely zero discharge from my nipples (inhibits prolactin production) - but then again, i am male ;-)

it is also happens to be a DA agonist and ah likes me DA.

 

[Hypnic_JerK]

I always wondered if these worked. I thought erowid's stuff on them may have just been posted by hypochondriac drug people, and hadn't read about piracetam's effects.

Anyone got a cheap source fore piracetam?

 

[tadfish]

piracetam worked for me, but then again my brain was mashed before.
2C-TFM what the hell is that?

 

[tadfish]

goto bulknutrition for cheap bulk nootropics

 

[yaesutom]

I once ordered a very small thing of cabergoline, a similar prolactin inhibitor / DA agonist. It was cool that you only had to take a mg or two every 3-4 days, long ass half life. I couldn't figure out if i ..liked it or not. It DID give me some nice feeling "dopamine buzz" an hour after taking it (and for the next few days) but something i'd notice but most wouldn't.

I would love to see 2C-TFM come back, pure of course for an RC. Also DOTFM....definitely.

2C-TFM what the hell is that?

its 4-trifluoromethyl-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine and its way potent and just real good.

 

[Xorkoth]

I get mine from bulknutrition... I believe it's $9.99 for 250 grams of piracetam. That's quite a lot of it!

About the hydergine... I love it, but not for potentiaiting psychedelics. It helps me a lot in my daily life as an emotional stablizer and a cognitive enhancer. It helps most people I've shown it to, but some (about a third or fourth) claim no effect.

and much caution is advised if using piracetam w/psychs, or indeed, any other cerebroactivator.

I will agree wholehearted with this. I've only combined it with psychedelics twice. The second time was with MDMA and a small amount of LSD, and this was absolutely great. The first time was with a strong dose of 2C-E, and the difference in strength, flavor, and content of the trip were like night and day from an identically-dosed trip a month or so before. I would never willinglky put myself into the place I found again... although I'm glad I saw it once, after the fact. You can read my trip report here or on Erowid if you'd like details about this.

 

[Dondante]

I just started taking piracetam a few weeks ago and I definitely felt subtle effects after a few days of taking 1600 mg 2x a day. But then I added DMAE, and I feel like it completely reversed the effects of piracetam. Since then, I stopped taking the DMAE and the subtle enhancing effects of piracetam have returned.

Anybody have any explanation for this? I thought that DMAE would help increase acetylcholine levels and potentiate piracetam. Maybe I should try centrophenoxine.

 

[Xorkoth]

Hmm... yeah, give centro a try. Of course everything affects everyone differently, and the pharmacological action of some of these nootropics is relatively unknown.

Also about the piracetam... you might want to start tapering down, and see if the effects remain. I started taking about as much as you per day, but now I'm down to 800mg once in the morning per day, and the effects are almost identical eccept I now have virtually no chance of getting a tension headache, which can sometimes happen with piracetam and others. Also, hydergine is quite synergistic with it, which is another part of the reason I went down to 800mg once daily.

Also, if you want to increase acetylcholine levels, centrophenoxine (as you mentioned) and just straight choline or lecithin also work.

 

[Dondante]

Okay ... I may have found my own answer, but I'm open to other suggestions.

In an in vitro study, DMAE reduced the synthesis of acetylcholine by inhibiting high affinity choline transport, and the same researchers found no effect of DMAE on acetylcholine levels in vivo in rats [17]

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=46

Wouldn't centrophenoxine have the same problems?

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't claim to know a whole lot about DMAE/centro, but I was under the impression that centrophenoxine eliminates many of the problems associated with DMAE. I would love to be corrected if I'm wrong, though.

 

[Jamshyd]

I don't know about Piracetam, but Nefiracetam made ~ 120mg Ketamine IV feel less than a tiny bump up the nose.

 

[Hypnic_JerK]

Piracetam doesn't have any effects that I can notice. I ususally take 1.8g.

However, that doesn't mean it isn't effecting me, I just dont notice any change from baseline, which varies a lot for me.

I didn't notice it potentiating DOC either, at various doses from .25 to 4mg. ymmv

 

[Dondante]

Sorry if this is inappropriate for the psychedelics forum. Some quick excerpts from the link I posted earlier...

Centrophenoxine (CPH) is DMAE bonded to p-chlorophenoxyacetic acid (PCPA). According to some research, the properties of CPH can be primarily attributed to DMAE moiety, while the PCPA just allows for better penetration of the blood brain barrier [1-2]. However, other research contradicts this idea. Other researchers also indicate that PCPA is responsible for some of the important actions of CPH

Hmm... that's helpful

There is very little evidence that this increase in choline levels leads to a consequent rise in acetylcholine, and given that DMAE competitively inhibits choline transport, there is theoretical basis for an anticholinergic effect [10-11, 13-15].

That's not gonna help the good old memory.

Numerous side effects from DMAE treatment have been reported in the literature. These include gastrointestinal disturbances, bad body odor, drowsiness, sedation, retardation, confusion, increased blood pressure, depression, and hypomania; some of these are causes of frequent withdrawal [20, 31-33].

So if anyone wants some free DMAE, I don't think I'll be needing mine.

Edit: I haven't tried the piracetam/psychedelic combo yet, but I'll post when I do.

 

[Xorkoth]

To be fair, I've only combined piracetam with psychedelics twice. The first time was with a low dose MDMA + LSD combo, and since it was the only time I've tried that, I can't compare. But it was immensely smooth and insanely long-lasting, with no noticeable comedown point from the MDMA and no aftereffects whatsoever at any time other than sleep deprivation.

The second time was with 18mg of 2C-E, which blew my previous 18mg 2C-E trip out of the water by so much, it was insane. It was many orders of magnitude higher than my previous trip, or indeed any trip I've ever had. The visuals were actually a bit less, but the mental effects were... shocking. That experience scared me away from combining piracetam with strong psychedelic experiences, though I plan to cautiously attempt low doses of chemicals I know well with it in order to put together some subjective data.

However, I have mixed it with 4-FMP, MDMA alone, ephedrine, and a stimulant stack called AMP + HEAT to good effect. it generally reduces the jitters somewhat and also reduces the comedown effects. I got the idea from a report on Erowid about mixing MDMA and piracetam, but my result was not nearly so favorable as that report. As a matter of fact, the last time I did MDMA (last weekend), I took piracetam before, and the emotional hangover was absent, but I felt like I had been hit by a train for the next few days. I just partially recovered today... and for some reason my chest has been hurting since about 12 hours after coming down, as if I pulled a chest muscle around my esophagus.

FYI, there's also a very favorable report on Erowid about mixing piracetam (and hydergine) with 2C-B. So it may have something to do with the action of the 2C-phenethylamines.

 

[nanobrain]

centrophen kicks DMAE's and choline's ass all over the place and i would not do a piracetam course without a cholinergic thrown in.

piracetam and analogues will significantly reduce the action of many dissociatives including ket, nitrous etc.

piracetam will potentiate both 2C phens and trypts, and may change the qualitative parameters of the experience to a shocking extent.

piracetam has confounding effects on the DMT experience.

in discrimination studies, a teaspoon of piracetam fully substituted for a teaspoon of sugar in the trained monkey's morning coffee. ;-)

i have never combined Hydergine with psychs, for some reason, a warning bell goes off on mere thought of doing so.