Harm Reduction Pill injection research into filters

[herm1t]

herm1t- yea a gel kinda like hair gel. Im not sure how to desvrible it but yea kinda like hair gel. Once you crush the pill and add water it thickens pretty quick into a gel-like substance that is not suitable for injecting. And I would never add heat to it bc I know how bad heating pills is and I deff would never inject gel into my veins. Just isnt safe. The new oxy formula for the oxycontins do the same thing but more of a waxy gel. Its pretty gross. This gel traps the good stuff in it so theres no extracting it even if a wheel filter is used. altho I havent tried the wheel filter to see if it would work. I just doubt that it would. its a pretty thick gel.

That sucks, I guess you could try using 3ml of water and putting it through a wheel filter, but man that sounds terrible, and I know there would be a lot of people out there that inject that gel, thank you big pharma...

So your not supposed to use warm water on pills or heat them in a spoon?

wtf is a wheel filter?

Well if you had actually read my thread and the links I gave, you would know the answer to both those questions, a wheel filter is a disc shaped filter which screws onto your syringe and 'catches' particles that are above a certain size.

Hey if you are talking about using AA to make homebake - this is a pretty dangerous practice and I would discourage anyone from doing it outside of a properly equipped lab. AA is pretty toxic stuff - inhaling the fumes can cause lung lesions etc etc - check out the relevant material safety data sheets (google is your friend)

Have you got a source for the lung lesions and AA? I know a guy who lives in New Zealand and there is a fairly big scene (on new zealands scale anyway) that he is apart of, where they basically crush up MSContin tablets, convert to a base, add the AA, bake in the oven till all the AA has reacted and evaporated, then convert back to morphine citrate and inject, I don't even know if he uses wheel filters, but assuming all the AA has evaporated, then wheel filtering the solution should result in a safe product.



Remember some basic chemistry guys! If something does not dissolve in cold water, and you raise the temperature to increase solubility, then once the solution returns back to room temperature the things which dissolved under heat will precipitate out, that is, your veins.

 

[Oxycondone]

Remember some basic chemistry guys! If something does not dissolve in cold water, and you raise the temperature to increase solubility, then once the solution returns back to room temperature the things which dissolved under heat will precipitate out, that is, your veins.

Or in the fridge...

Hey I know that it's simple and effective to say never heat pills it's dangerous but the message should really be never inject solution above room temp. I'm new to banging but I do know with plugging and from lots of people that do use unsafe injection methods that heating mscontin do help dissociate the morphine from the gel. When it is then cooled and the gel reforms, as herm1t just posted, there is a lot more free morphine in solution that there would be from not heating at all.

As for AA, used to use it all the time in the lab and never really gave the safety to much of a thought (had it in a fume hood however). The good thing about it is if you are doing damage to your lungs with AA you damn well know it! It isn't comfortable. It's not like drinking where all seems good one day and then you find out you need a liver transplant because it has gone to shit over a 2 year binge.

 

[amapola]

Hey I know that it's simple and effective to say never heat pills it's dangerous but the message should really be never inject solution above room temp. I'm new to banging but I do know with plugging and from lots of people that do use unsafe injection methods that heating mscontin do help dissociate the morphine from the gel. When it is then cooled and the gel reforms, as herm1t just posted, there is a lot more free morphine in solution that there would be from not heating at all.

Yep. Recrystallization increases my yield of codeine CWE by about 10-25% depending. Not the same situation but same principle.

Saying don't inject heated solution is just as easy as saying don't cook your shot, but it is harder to explain why to the layman who thinks "I have a spoonful of room temp water and an hour later I still have a spoonful of room temp water. What's the point in cooking it?" Furthermore it is ironically the people who don't understand the concept who perpetuate the "don't cook at all" rule after hearing it a few times. I don't make a habit of correcting them so they can get a little bit higher, and if they knew they were losing a little bit of their drug by not heating and didn't have time to wait for it to cool, they might throw caution to the wind.

 

[herm1t]

Yep. Recrystallization increases my yield of codeine CWE by about 10-25% depending. Not the same situation but same principle.

Saying don't inject heated solution is just as easy as saying don't cook your shot, but it is harder to explain why to the layman who thinks "I have a spoonful of room temp water and an hour later I still have a spoonful of room temp water. What's the point in cooking it?" Furthermore it is ironically the people who don't understand the concept who perpetuate the "don't cook at all" rule after hearing it a few times. I don't make a habit of correcting them so they can get a little bit higher, and if they knew they were losing a little bit of their drug by not heating and didn't have time to wait for it to cool, they might throw caution to the wind.

wait what? you're saying that you need to heat pills to increase solubility?

 

[amapola]

wait what? you're saying that you need to heat pills to increase solubility?

I'm saying some of the active compound is stuck inside solid chunks of insoluble material so it can't get into solution. Not all of it but some. Let me draw you a diagram.

Okay I attached it check it out.

 

[herm1t]

I'm saying some of the active compound is stuck inside solid chunks of insoluble material so it can't get into solution. Not all of it but some. Let me draw you a diagram.

Okay I attached it check it out.

Ah yes I see what you are saying, but the researcher was saying stuff like this can take up to 12 hours, because of some of the particles changing form in the heat.

 

[amapola]

Ah yes I see what you are saying, but the researcher was saying stuff like this can take up to 12 hours, because of some of the particles changing form in the heat.

I don't know what you are referring to.


Also I'd like to point out that if ground finely enough the amount of active caught in the crystals of insoluble material is insignificant.

 

[John_Burrows]

Plugging isn't a very popular pastime for most people but you could look into it if you haven't already...

Which people are you referring to? The people who aren't interested in a safe alternative to injection that retains most of the high? Or the people who aren't interested in knowing what to do with pills that gel?

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm, but it annoys me when people automatically hate on plugging, usually out of ignorance. Plugging pills (especially opiates) gives you a high almost as good as IV (I actually think it's better) but with none of the danger. Anyone serious about their drug hobby really needs to try plugging a few times before they assume the needle is the only way to go.

Also, for pills that gel when mixed with water, if you heat the solution and get it reasonably liquified, it will be absorbed by the rectum and give you the results you're looking for (the dangers of heating a crushed pill solution for injection do not apply to plugging).

I plugged a gel fent patch (after mixing with warm water) and it was one of the best highs I've ever had.

PLUGGING IS GOOD.

 

[Oxycondone]

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm, but it annoys me when people automatically hate on plugging, usually out of ignorance.

Just to clarify I would't have advocated plugging if I hated it. I actually have posts in other threads discussing my plugging use. Personally the few times I have tried with morphine I haven't gotten great results (decent but not what I was expecting) but I am going to try again soon. I was just pointing out the fact that it's not for everyone, and I wouldn't be offended at all if people flat out refused to do it.

Not everyone is driven by pure logic when choosing their ROA. Some people have personal, religious and or social taboos about putting things up there arse and would rather snort/eat/bang or whatever. Other people just have their own special reasons for doing things. As an example look at the amount of people who snort oxy despite its lower bio avail and potential for causing nasal damage (I made a large post describing why snorting oxy isn't pointless in another thread).

Oh and amapola I love the diagram.

 

[ayjay]

Have you got a source for the lung lesions and AA? I know a guy who lives in New Zealand and there is a fairly big scene (on new zealands scale anyway) that he is apart of, where they basically crush up MSContin tablets, convert to a base, add the AA, bake in the oven till all the AA has reacted and evaporated, then convert back to morphine citrate and inject, I don't even know if he uses wheel filters, but assuming all the AA has evaporated, then wheel filtering the solution should result in a safe product.

I googled "acetic anhydride MSDS" - then pretty much take your pick. The stuff is extremely toxic and corrosive - eg from the first google hit: "Irritation effects begin with airborne concentrations as low as 0.36 mg/m3" The final product should be perfectly safe - I'm concerned about the cooks' health here - I wouldn't touch AA unless I had proper protective gear and a fume cupboard with a scrubber on the exhaust. I have worked as an industrial chemist - you work with so much dangerous shit in that field and you'd better respect it or it will get you.

 

[herm1t]

Ahh I know a friend who sniffs his spoon of AA + morphine after cooking, best tell him this.

 

[ayjay]

^sounds like he is checking to see if all AA has reacted or evaporated off. No vinegar smell = all good. As long as he's not checking super soon it's probably low risk. The main risk of fume inhalation is setting up the process and during the cook - that's when the majority of vapours are going to be about. Protective gloves and glasses, good ventilation and a respirator would be the minimum I'd say.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I wish they would have investigated into some additional pills to be honest, but I am happy to see how well Subutex is filtered.

 

[ayjay]

^the principle should be the same across a variety of tablets. There are studies examining MS Contin filtering too - between that and Subutex you've got most tablet types covered - talc, microcrystalline cellulose, maize starch...

 

[herm1t]

I wish they would have investigated into some additional pills to be honest, but I am happy to see how well Subutex is filtered.

What pills? I presume oxymorphone and hydromorphone pills? I bet they behave similiar these pills. Basically this data can be applied to most extended release pills.

 

[OntarioGuy]

to the guy who said 50-60 mg's of morphine per ml,thats bullshit.I know the rush from a 100 is alot stronger then shooting a 60,it all gets in there.and lmc,yeah I shoot MS Contin everyday.the IR's I get are called statex and their awesome.MS contin is easy to shoot.I ask the pharmacy to give me the TEVA brand morphine as my technique works better with these since you can thin the solution,but the brand name MS Contin are like fucking glue man.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

^the principle should be the same across a variety of tablets. There are studies examining MS Contin filtering too - between that and Subutex you've got most tablet types covered - talc, microcrystalline cellulose, maize starch...

Opana ER has a unique inactive ingredient that most other tablet's don't called silicified microcrystalline cellulose.

A lot of other tablets have unique D&C or FD&C colorings which aren't present in either that were shown here.

What pills? I presume oxymorphone and hydromorphone pills? I bet they behave similiar these pills. Basically this data can be applied to most extended release pills.

the newer US version of OxyContin wouldn't be applicable to this older version of OxyContin they tested.

to the guy who said 50-60 mg's of morphine per ml,thats bullshit.I know the rush from a 100 is alot stronger then shooting a 60,it all gets in there.and lmc,yeah I shoot MS Contin everyday.the IR's I get are called statex and their awesome.MS contin is easy to shoot.I ask the pharmacy to give me the TEVA brand morphine as my technique works better with these since you can thin the solution,but the brand name MS Contin are like fucking glue man.

If you aren't micron filtering, you aren't getting 100% of the active ingredient out of the pill.

This is why the rush is stronger, it's because just cotton filtering 60mg doesn't yield 60mg into your shot.

 

[OntarioGuy]

^I understand this,Im just saying mixing up a 100 mg pill with 1 ml of water produces a dramatically more intense rush then a 60 mg tablet with the same amount of water,which leads me to believe that more morphine then 60 mg's dissolves into the said amount of liquid.

Also,MS Contin leaves a gel,I often get my gels to be nothing more then a slimy tasteless blob,and the solution I draw up very bitter,which makes me believe I am in fact recovering a large percentage of the morphine put in with negligble amounts left behind.

 

[amapola]

^I understand this,Im just saying mixing up a 100 mg pill with 1 ml of water produces a dramatically more intense rush then a 60 mg tablet with the same amount of water,which leads me to believe that more morphine then 60 mg's dissolves into the said amount of liquid.

Do you micron filter? If you don't suspended but undissolved morphine particles could get into you veins and dissolve there. If you have pure water and pure morphine sulphate at STP the maximum amount that can dissolve before the solution is saturated is a known quantity which whoever it was read as 60mg/ml.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Do you micron filter? If you don't suspended but undissolved morphine particles could get into you veins and dissolve there. If you have pure water and pure morphine sulphate at STP the maximum amount that can dissolve before the solution is saturated is a known quantity which whoever it was read as 60mg/ml.

This was my point exactly.

Not micron filtering doesn't yield 100%.