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Physical dependence on cannabis

I hope you're cool with me double-posting this because I really want this to be separate from that previous post.

http://www.druglibrary.org/crl/behavior/jones-01.pdf - Clinical Relevance of Cannabis Tolerance and Dependence (1981)

This part in particular got me thinking: "With amphetamines, opiates, barbiturates, benzodiazepine derivates and tricyclic anti-depressants, as long as 20 to 50 years had passed before the clinical significance of early clinical or experimental reports of tolerance and dependance were appreciated"
 
loveyourevil said:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PHYSICAL WD FROM CANNABIS. ITS ALL MENTAL. I have found that with alot of drugs, you just gatta learn how to play a better mental game than "said drug."
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Uhh durrrr coming from the 14 y/o with 8 posts. I know..I know.. your 15..my bad.

It's confusing to me why people are trying to convince each other that there are, or are not, withdrawals/dependency associated with marijuana use. Obviously there are quite a few people who have experienced the cold chills/sweats, loss of appetite, insomnia. If you have not then you are lucky but what are you trying to do..convince the people who believe they have experienced wtihdrawals that it's all in their head?

How would you know about anyone aside from your self?? For all we know the day you quit marijuana you binged on heroin benzos and alcohol.. or your just a big fat liar who comes on the net to fuck around. And I am sorry but the post I quoted above makes you sound like a fuckin retard...I am sorry man.

'Ya gatta learn to play a better game than "said drug." WTF does that even mean?

Don't you think it would be odd to be able to put a psychoactive substance into your body 12 hours a day every day of the year for a decade, cease use, and not feel a damn thing withdrawal wise? Yes it;s not dope.. but it's naive to think it's impossible. I mean jesus I am no chemist or doctor but to dismiss the possibility of dependency on some level seems kind of crazy.
 
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ReeferChiefer said:
So then is it really fair to say that weed is physically addicting if only a few people experience that level of withdrawl? I imagine their body chemistry would have more to do with it.
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Exactly, its all body chemistry. I get withdrawals from weed - my friends don't. If my friends took 120mg IR morphine with no tolerance theyd likely OD - If I take 120mg IR morphine with no tolerance I barely feel anything. All drugs are really user-dependent in my case. One of my coke head buddies doesn't experience withdrawal from cocaine, whereas I don't experience tolerance. But I do withdraw from coke, and he does gain tolerance. (Although I'll take the potential for coke withdrawals over the potential to coke tolerance ANY DAY)

Its ignorant for anyone to say they don't exist. They may not exist for YOU, but just because YOU don't have a vagina (or penis if you are a female not experiencing weed withdrawals) IT DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T EXIST!.

Edit: I think a better phrase would be "Marijuana has the potential to be physically addicting in some people" and no, it is not in those people's heads. I've had opiate withdrawal, and coke withdrawal, and I can tell you marijuana withdrawal is very real.
 
^ Same goes for me, most of my friends have smoked daily and as long as me, and only one of them experiences loss of appetite from not smoking. Neither of them get the sweating like I do. However, my friends all experience insomnia if they don't smoke, something I personally don't experience - I've slept like a baby most of my life, except for a bit when I quit drinking.

Edit: Also, the only recreational drugs I've done in the past 6 months in tobacco/weed, which is why I believe its the combo which is creating my symptoms. I don't take caffeine, don't drink, and haven't done other drugs in the past 6 months.
 
GBM said:
Exactly, its all body chemistry. I get withdrawals from weed - my friends don't. If my friends took 120mg IR morphine with no tolerance theyd likely OD - If I take 120mg IR morphine with no tolerance I barely feel anything. All drugs are really user-dependent in my case. One of my coke head buddies doesn't experience withdrawal from cocaine, whereas I don't experience tolerance. But I do withdraw from coke, and he does gain tolerance. (Although I'll take the potential for coke withdrawals over the potential to coke tolerance ANY DAY)

Its ignorant for anyone to say they don't exist. They may not exist for YOU, but just because YOU don't have a vagina (or penis if you are a female not experiencing weed withdrawals) IT DOESN'T MEAN IT DOESN'T EXIST!.

Edit: I think a better phrase would be "Marijuana has the potential to be physically addicting in some people" and no, it is not in those people's heads. I've had opiate withdrawal, and coke withdrawal, and I can tell you marijuana withdrawal is very real.
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Don't you think doing opiates and stims like coke fucks with your chemistry as well? Just sayin. Some of the stuff you went through doesn't sound like it would be solely caused by weed. Aside from occasional shrooms and mdma usage, me and my buddies only smoke weed. And none of us had ever had any kind of cold sweats or aching etc. I agree with your quote though, everyones affected differently so it's safer to say it has potential rather than to refute the fact completely.
 
I honestly can't say it would have an effect. I don't use opiates aside from when I need a large dose of hydromorphone or fentanyl due to extreme arthritis pain which isn't helped by marijuana, and I had experienced withdrawals from marijuana well before I ever indulged upon a nice line of blow. Hell, I experienced it before I had ever done ANY drugs aside from weed. But like I said, some of my best friends IRL call me a dumbass when I say I have had physiological withdrawals from weed.

I can assure you everything I have stated above is what I have experienced from solely marijuana withdrawal symptoms. If its worth anything to you, I don't get the "usual" psychological withdrawal symptoms aside from irritability, but its hard to say if that is caused by the lack of marijuana, or if it has to do with the body pains.

I envy the people who don't get physical withdrawals TBH, but not having weed is a rare occasion these days given my Ankylosing Spondylitis.


Another thing that is important to keep in mind is I have been smoking 1-2g a day for well over 3 years, and it has been AGES since I can recall noticing an increase in my tolerance (possible ceiling? I'm not sure if marijuana has a ceiling tolerance mind you).
 
Is it possible that your arthritis pain had something to do with the pains you suffered from withdrawl?
 
Now that we are all experienced with synthetic cannabinoids there should no longer be any question as to whether one can become physically dependent on cb1 agonists.

Other than that, you all are mostly arguing semantics.

Addiction is a psychological condition that a person is probably pre-disposed to before ever consuming a drug, and will develop long before becoming physically dependent. It consists of a pattern of drug-seeking behavior, especially when the behavior is irrational and damaging to the patient. Physical dependence does not preclude addiction.

Dependence occurs when ANY negative physical symptoms manifest after cessation of a drug, these negative physical symptoms may create psychological distress that leads to usage. Insomnia, lack of hunger, irritability, sweating, nausea, etc. are all physical symptoms and a sign of dependence. A person can be physically dependent on a substance without ever becoming addicted(chronic pain patients who only take their medication as prescribed)
 
Coolwhip said:
Now that we are all experienced with synthetic cannabinoids there should no longer be any question as to whether one can become physically dependent on cb1 agonists.

Other than that, you all are mostly arguing semantics.

Addiction is a psychological condition that a person is probably pre-disposed to before ever consuming a drug, and will develop long before becoming physically dependent. It consists of a pattern of drug-seeking behavior, especially when the behavior is irrational and damaging to the patient. Physical dependence does not preclude addiction.

Dependence occurs when ANY negative physical symptoms manifest after cessation of a drug, these negative physical symptoms may create psychological distress that leads to usage. Insomnia, lack of hunger, irritability, sweating, nausea, etc. are all physical symptoms and a sign of dependence. A person can be physically dependent on a substance without ever becoming addicted(chronic pain patients who only take their medication as prescribed)
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Well did you read the paper? http://www.druglibrary.org/crl/behavior/jones-01.pdf

I'm guessing not many did. The predrug and postdrug figures for THC demonstrate clearly distinguishable withdrawal symptoms from THC but not from CBD. I was going to pick stuff from the .pdf and post it here, but now I insist people read it for themselves. If it's shit science, please criticize.
 
After not smOking pot for around nine days , I get like quick flash dreams as I start to doze off and wake up like the falling feeling , I sometimes dream like I am still in my exact same Place/position but I cannot move . On one occasion I was able to move but my vision still saw me not moving , it's was fucked up . I'm not sure if this counts as Physocal dependence but I just wanted to throw that out there .
 
PeacePipeChief said:
After not smOking pot for around nine days , I get like quick flash dreams as I start to doze off and wake up like the falling feeling , I sometimes dream like I am still in my exact same Place/position but I cannot move . On one occasion I was able to move but my vision still saw me not moving , it's was fucked up . I'm not sure if this counts as Physocal dependence but I just wanted to throw that out there .
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well congratulations. no need to be scared. youre on the brink of an obe!!!!! :)

you could turn this into the most beutiful experience of your life. next time you wake up after such a (admittedly, quite intense) flash dream and cannot move, tell your mind to float out of your body and out of the house, straight through the walls. you will most definitely NOT regret it. if u want back, just think of your bed and ZAP youll be back. :)

i know how whack this shit sounds and im not saying youre 'actually' leaving your body. just trust me on this. ive been tortured for nearly a decade by these horrific paralyzing dream experiences.

tell me, is there a vibrating sensation? it can feel like anything from a soft humming to a violent electric current running through you.

oh man, youre so fucking lucky!!

recommended literature: http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Be...3710/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330766481&sr=8-1

ive had my first full blown obe after reading the first 45 pages of this book. i was able to induce these states by quitting pot as well btw, with 100% reliability. your time might be running out though, itll stop after a few days and only occur occasionally, if youre anything like me that is. after 8 years of naked fear of being terrorized upon falling asleep i managed to break through, all the time not knowing shit about what the hell was going on. at first i thought i was turning insane (was 17 back then). unfortunately with learning how to navigate astral space, the phenomena ceased to occur. :( still, the first time was by far the most beautiful thing ive ever experienced. far more beautiful than the most rewarding dmt trips, more beautiful even than waking up and looking through my daughters eyes into her laughing heart.

enjoy!!! :) <3
 
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ReeferChiefer said:
Is it possible that your arthritis pain had something to do with the pains you suffered from withdrawl?
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Arthritis does not cause one to sweat excessively, develop temporary insomnia or lose their appetite for days. Sure, pain could be associated with arthritis.

And to answer your post prior to the one quoted above (which I can only speak for myself), when I quit smoking weed I only quit smoking weed. When I'm at the point where I need to stop for any reason, it's always been when marijuana was the only drug entering my system for at least 1 month prior to my cessation of use, so no, there are no other drugs present in my system that could cause the slight physical withdrawals of cannabis that I experience every time I quit my use.


And I want to LOL at the guy who responded to my last post in this thread:

ReeferChiefer said:
Loss of appetite is not physical. There are hunger receptors in our brain that trigger that hungry feeling. Sure, the feeling itself is physical, but the process in which we feel it is mental. This is generally caused by over-stimulation of those receptors by the CB1 receptors released in THC/Cannabis. Just like meth addicts and their inability to produce serotonin/dopamine without meth.
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How is a chemical receptor physically present in your body being effected by a physical chemical's presence or absence anything but physical? Are you saying that the body's chemical receptors are all psychological?

Just so we're all clear on what "psychological" means:

Psychological, [psy·cho·log·i·cal] Adj. Of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person.
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[Please note that the "mind" and the "brain" are not one in the same.]

So let me get this straight... Now we're supposed to believe that chemical receptors rely on your emotions and mental state to work properly? I think you've got it backwards, ReeferChiefer, our emotions and mental state rely on chemical receptors, hormones, and probably other physical, tangible things in the body that I'm neglecting to mention (give me a break, it's 4am here and I'm tired as fuck) in order to know how to function.
 
Not sure where this joint pain started and I'm too lazy to browse back through the whole thread, but I, too, experience joint pain upon quitting pot. The problem imho is the intense nocturnal sweating I experience whenever I do not smoke pot (at least for the first days/weeks). It just sucks every drop of water out of my body until the intracaspular space of my joints is not sufficiently lubricated anymore. The first thing I'll hear upon waking up from such a night is my every joint cracking back into place.
I have a feeling that the diarrhea might also be explained by the sweating. Sweat might be hypoosmolar compared to blood plasma, but with the amounts of water I sometimes loose during these withdrawls a lot of electrolytes will be flushed out as well. The white color of my dried sweat stains is sufficient evidence to me that this is indeed the case. Understanding disturbances in the body's electrolyte balance is not exactly simple and I have a hard time to explain how this would lead to diarrhea, but since pot does not cause decreased gi tract motility or even constipation for me at all, I've always assumed the diarrhea must be secondary to another withdrawal symptom... It'd be very interesting to measure blood concentrations of Na, Cl, K etc. right before and after these sweaty nights. :D
 
Oh dear, if you think quitting weed is bad try quitting a FULL CB1 agonist such as AM-2201 rather than a partial one (such as weed).

That was hell stopping a 300mg/day habit. At some points it literally felt like I was dieing.
 
J.Wallace said:
I don't care what people say, Cannabis withdrawals do no exist in a physical sense. Obviously if you go from smoking an eighth a day to absolutely nothing, you're gonna experience symptoms of aggravation, irritability, and other such things but those are from you're own mental behavior, not from physical changes in you're body.

And lets say for the sake of argument that scientists discover that physical dependence on Cannabis is possible. If that is the case, the symptoms of withdrawal are so fucking minor that it shouldn't even be called withdrawals. I'm sorry, but if somebody say they are addicted to Cannabis, I automatically laugh at them. It's not hard at all to go without Cannabis when you stop suddenly. And if you think it is, I'm sorry but you have no idea what real withdrawals are.
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They don't exist huh? Riiiiiight - so if you use marijuana to get to sleep every night, then stop smoking it - what are the night terrors, insomnia, and general feeling like shit, if they're not physical withdrawal?

You mention irritability, etc -

They're not all in the head - these are symptoms of physical withdrawal - physiological chemical imbalances after building up a tolerance to ganja.
 
Don't exist in a physical sense? So the lack of cannabinoids binding to receptors and lack of receptors for endogenous cannabinoids to bind to is all in our heads? RIGHHHHHT.


QTF
B1tO'RoughJack said:
They're not all in the head - these are symptoms of physical withdrawal - physiological chemical imbalances after building up a tolerance to ganja.
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hx_ said:
Oh dear, if you think quitting weed is bad try quitting a FULL CB1 agonist such as AM-2201 rather than a partial one (such as weed).

That was hell stopping a 300mg/day habit. At some points it literally felt like I was dieing.
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dude, excuse my directness, but unless you have a very pressing reason to quit "cold turkey" doing that is plain idiotic. See, I was up to ~1g hi grade cannabis at night (hash and pot, am2201 occasionally) which is a lot for me since I am very sensitive to cannabinoids. i took a whole week to dose myself back down to .05g pot. i did get withdrawals nonetheless, but not in a very bothersome sense. the symptoms were subjectively more intense than quitting my 18month amphetamine (and shorter lasting mdpv) habit and surprisingly more intense than quitting a on and off (last 3 month daily) opioid habit, but still nothing i would wine about. seriously, why the fuck would you go from 300mg am2201 to 0 in a day. what other reason aside from pure curiosity could there be? carelessness leading to not stocking up properly? did you just not know it could be this wild?

either way, im sure youre not planning to repeat this, hope youre doing fine now. :) we should really remind ourselves though that while there are withdrawal symptoms when ceasing to use cannabinoids, its nothing close to the horror of breaking a booze, benzo or opie habit. check out the dark side forums to get some insights of what major withdrawals can be like. ever slept in a pile of puke and feces cause you didnt have the strength to clean yourself up? ;)
 
How is it idiotic in any way?

I had over 25g around but needed to stop as it was giving me serious mental issues that were getting worse by the day. Also if you rely on it to come off, its much more likely that you'll start up again, its not something like opiates or benzos where it can be fatal going cold turkey - I just felt like UTTER shit for 7 days and then was fine. Also I could only eat with the help of weed. Now that I'm completely off it I feel constantly hungry and (the best thing) sane!

They were horrific tbh, multiple days of insomnia, puking up almost everything I ate/drank (including water!), days of cold sweats enough to put sweat patches on the back and chest of my tshirt, panic attacks and de-realistion along with a feeling over all of my skin of numb dirtyness and static oilyness. Add to that a prickly headache that didn't seem to go away and chronic diarrhoea, I just wanted the withdrawals to be finished as soon as possible, taking more of the drug would just have extended them whilst providing light relief for less than 20 mins!

Also the couple of times I did indulge, the symptoms came back worse and it was so tempting just to restart my 24/7 habit. Thankfully I got through it and now indulge no more than twice a week, and not before bed!
 
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