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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Petrol Sniffing in Indigenous Communities

^ Presumably plenty of non white Australian's are also ignorant to the topic but in my experience none like to speak on it so often and with such authority (and too often ignorance) as white Australian's seem to, I say this as a white Australian myself... Either way seems like a pretty stupid and irrelevant question tbh.

Btw I am still waiting for you to address this part of the post you quoted - "Dude, you basically called someone retarded for stating that the genocide against Aborigines was a genocide, that is pretty fucking ignorant and honestly if you were so misinformed on the topic then why are you calling other people retarded for calling it like it is? Not everybody can be informed on every issue but if you are not informed then maybe you should keep your trap shut before you spout off insults and other ignorant comments."

Pretty funny how you will grab a different quote out of that post to post some smart arse question but don't address that part, could it be that you don't have an intelligent response? I wouldn't come in here acting so smart when you are one of the people that is obviously making assumptions about shit you don't know dick about.
 
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So your saying your experiences with white people expressing their racist attitudes has led you to generalise everyone within that white race as being ignorant? seems a little racist mate, even if it is the good racism!. Can you see if I you supplemented any other race than white, it would cause people on this forum to grab their pitchforks?

As for not addressing that question, Cant you see why Im weary to voice my opinion? lets be honest bluelight isn't a place to voice alternative opinions Ive asked people to provide a source and got a 1 word reply,Tasmania. Ok, If their was targeted a extermination of aboriginals in Tasmania does that mean every Aboriginal on the continent was targeted? remembering that the original Australians were not close to an autonomous nation never mind the fact they had varied customs and languages.

Im not arguing that what happened to the Aboriginals was anything short of disgusting, just that it doent meet the criteria of genocide.
 
Gimpan, I believe that it was me that you accused of being retarded when I mentioned assimilation as a form of genocide.
OK I was just throwing it out there as discussion, but to be accused of retardism, is just plain ignorant.
There have been many scholarly articles about this practise.

One very good one is this; Jessica Schimmel – Williams Prize 2005
Killing Without Murder: Aboriginal Assimilation Policy as Genocide
and is located atlsawarchives.lib.lehigh.edu/include/getdoc.php?id=459&article.

For those who can't be bothered reading it, allow me to post a couple of relevant paragraphs;

Greek root “genos,” meaning race or tribe, and the Latin root “cide,” meaning killing to
create a word for an action which was hardly new.
Genocide is ‘the coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the
destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups,
with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of
such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social
institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion and the
economic existence of the national groups, and the destruction of
personal security, liberty, health, dignity and even the lives of
individuals belonging to such groups.’3
Genocide is most often understood to mean the brazen and deliberate murder of a
group of people. Sometimes it is more sophisticated than gas chambers, starvation
tactics, machetes and guns. Lemkin’s definition formed the foundation for the United
Nations Convention of the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide adopted
in 1948. Article II of that Convention states that “genocide means any of the following
acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial
or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about
its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”4
Here it is clearly apparent that the Stolen Generations and the forcible removal of
Aboriginal children from their families and communities into institutions or foster care
(most often with a non-Aboriginal family) fall under Article II (e) of the Genocide
Convention. It could also be argued that the Australian government are guilty of clauses
(b), (c) and (d). Article III also made conspiracy and attempt to commit genocide
punishable offences. Included in that definition will be an understanding that genocide is

an umbrella term encompassing “ethnocide,” that is, the attempt to destroy the culture of
a people without necessarily killing the members of that group.

Assimilation
The second and more exact aspect of the attempt to eradicate the culture of the
Indigenous peoples of Australia was through a program of assimilation into white culture
to the end that no Australian would look, act, think, speak, believe or associate
themselves with Aboriginality. This is the more popular claim to genocide under Article
II (e) of the UN Genocide Convention, “forcibly transferring children of the group to
another group.” Children were removed from their families and communities in the hope
of breaking any ties to identity, religion, language, land and family. Inherent in a policy
of assimilation is the assumption that the majority group is superior to the minority.
The most succinct definition of Indigenous culture is “the whole complex of
relationships, knowledge, languages, social institutions, beliefs, values and ethical rules
that bind a people together and give the collective and individual members a sense of
who they are and where they belong. It is usually rooted in a particular place – a past or
present homeland.”25 The policy of assimilation in the twentieth century undertook to
destroy each of these defining characteristics systematically as will be presented below.
The Bringing them home: Report of the National Inquiry into the Separation of
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children from Their Families estimated that for
the years 1910 to 1970 between one in three and one in ten children were taken from
their families. This is obviously a broad range and should be understood in the context of
time and place (i.e. – more children were taken in Western Australia in the 1930s than
Jessica Schimmel – Williams Prize 2005
13
were taken in New South Wales in the 1970s). These figures are highly contentious.
Prominent historians and the current government have accepted one in ten as a
reasonable figure. It has been estimated that as many as 200-400 per 1,000 Aboriginal
children were removed from their communities each year between 1860 and 1960,
juxtaposed with a figure of ten to twenty per 1,000 non-Aboriginal children. 26 While a
numerical figure of children removed that is acceptable to all sides is unattainable, Peter
Read’s estimate of approximately 100,000 children separated from their families is
considered fair.27 The Protectors’ gave reasons for taking these children that were often
blatantly racist. For example, often on the committal notices under the heading “Reason
for Board taking control of child” the station managers would write: “For being
Aboriginal.”28 There can be no doubt that these children were targeted because they were
of Indigenous descent.
In his definition of genocide, Lemkin cites two phases in the course of
committing genocide: one, the “destruction of the national pattern of the oppressed
group,” and two, the “imposition of the national patterns of the oppressor.”29 The policy
and practice of assimilatio n entailed mission life in order to break down the culture of
Aboriginal children, most specifically in terms of identity, religion, language, land and
family which are all highly interconnected in Aboriginal culture, and then forced white
culture upon the children. Most importantly as scholars have pointed out, according to
the UN definition, these acts need not be malicious to be considered genocide.
The [Bringing them home] Report argues that, in order to constitute an
act of genocide, the planned extermination of a group ‘need not be
solely motivated by animosity or hatred.’ … This is important in
rejecting the assertion that the allegations of genocide can be avoided
simply by claiming that a particular course of action was felt to be ‘the
right thing at the time.’30

Destruction of a culture is a murderous action even when it is considered to be in the best
interest of a group because it is the result of a majority group taking away a minority
group’s self-determination.

Anyways, I did not write this, I hope that you read it, it is very enthralling.
All it indicates is that I am not retarded.
 
So your saying the crime of genocide comes in wide spectrum and isnt limited to one people going out and massacring another with the intent of wiping the out. I agree with this to an extent, I agree the British empire claiming this country as their own when their was already people living here, who doesn't? It was a crime forcing Aboriginals to abandon their customs and traditions, It was a crime to remove Aboriginal children from their families and raise them in white families, and yes that does come under your definition of genocide.

Unfortunalty all that shit happened and now we have to deal with it, Ive heard alot of accusations of racism but not many solutions.
What do you think we should do?
 
So your saying your experiences with white people expressing their racist attitudes has led you to generalise everyone within that white race as being ignorant? seems a little racist mate, even if it is the good racism!. Can you see if I you supplemented any other race than white, it would cause people on this forum to grab their pitchforks?

As for not addressing that question, Cant you see why Im weary to voice my opinion? lets be honest bluelight isn't a place to voice alternative opinions Ive asked people to provide a source and got a 1 word reply,Tasmania. Ok, If their was targeted a extermination of aboriginals in Tasmania does that mean every Aboriginal on the continent was targeted? remembering that the original Australians were not close to an autonomous nation never mind the fact they had varied customs and languages.

Im not arguing that what happened to the Aboriginals was anything short of disgusting, just that it doent meet the criteria of genocide.

When did I generalize the whole white race as ignorant? You are putting words in my mouth, I said that in my experience TOO MANY white Australians SEEM to think they know everything on this issue but are very often under informed and I perceive this to be a big part of the problem in why nothing changes. Pretty big difference in the two statements imho.

I really think your excuse that Aboriginals had a wide variety of tribes so if one or two of them was eliminated this somehow doesn't count against the Aboriginal people as a whole is a cop out, clearly the aim was to eliminate all of them and just because this wasn't a complete success in all cases doesn't change the fact it is a genocide. You are aware Hitler didn't wipe out all the Jewish people in WWII right? Still considered a genocide though...

EDIT- I notice you now acknowledge that we did commit genocide against the Aboriginal people, does that make you a retard then? I really find it funny that you would call other people retarded for having a point of view that you were so easily persuaded towards. Perhaps you should put more thought into an issue before you start throwing around insults and generalizations.
 
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Do you think that in order to close the gap we must acknowledge that Aboriginals face much more obstacles than the average citizen, and that if we want to change things for the best we cannot have one law/policy for all.

Believe it or not I have witnessed the good that comes from favoring Aboriginal people over other Australians, many of my mates have been strong enough to lift themselves out of the cycle of poverty with the help of "racist" policies and make a better life for themselves.

So as ive already said, the government encouraging/subsidising companies in order to have a quota of Aboriginal employees that is much higher than the percentage of Aboriginals in the wider community is agood thing that is getting results

So Ill ask again, do you think that favoring Aboriginal Australians, whether it be in the workplace, social security or the justice system over other Australians is acceptable?
 
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That is a very good question Gimpan. I don't think that the average whitey would support it at all, indeed many seem to believe that the aboriginals already get more than their fair share of benefits.

I don't think that there is any one correct answer that is applicable across the board. I am sure that they the people need to empower themselves with whichever resources available to them whether these resources are royalties or dreamtime or a combination of both. In as much, they can find a voice in local, state and national policy making. To a degree this happens. Also the whitey needs to take into consideration the cultural needs of the Blackfella.

This does happen to a degree, for example, magistrate allowing tribal punishment for some crimes rather than imposing white law for some crimes that occur between families, thus avoiding imprisonment.

I think the biggest tool is improved social awareness, in which I believe the majority of Australians are pretty bloody ignorant and still maintain the white superiority attitude that was ingrained into them over several centuries of ancestors conquering pretty much every continent and land they jolly well decided to.

We cannot rewrite the past, but we can shape the future, and to do this, perhaps ignorance, fear and ingrained and foundless attitudes may need to be reexamined with a less superior attitude and with the understanding that we have made many not such brilliant decisions in the molding of modern society and its never too late to make better decisions.
I hope this makes sense. I shall hit send and hopefully not have to edit too much :-D
 
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So Ill ask again, do you think that favoring Aboriginal Australians, whether it be in the workplace, social security or the justice system over other Australians is acceptable?
perhaps rather that "close" the (socioeconomic, financial, health - what have you) "gap" between indigenous and non-indegenous Australia, we acknowledge that the gap exists, and work from there.
there is an excellent literacy program being run by WA's state library throughout some very isolated parts of the state, into raising literacy standards (and engaging with young aboriginal kids) by publishing books using not just english, anglo-centric themes and language, but both together.
this kind of thinking could, with a bit of work, be applied across the board.
'positive discrimination' has its place, i guess, in certain contexts, but "closing the gap" has a whiff of assimilation about it to me.
as for things like bridging courses that help indigenous aussies into tertiary education - absolutely, it's helped a bunch of people i know.
 
I think you'd be surprised how quickly even the most openly racist people change their tune once they start working with/get to know their Aboriginal workmates (and of obviously the other way around), especially in positions are life threatening (im an industrial Electrician).

Eventually peoples prejudices fade away, yeah I still here "yeah but they're one of the good ones" often, but all in all im optimistic that encouraging Aboriginals to join the work force with incentives funded by the government, things will get better, yeah this is by no means the only solution, just the one I have the most experience with.
 
As for the tribal punishment issue, Im 100% against it, we do not allow the use of violence to punish 'white' australians so we cannot allow it to be used against Aboriginal Australians.

We cannot allow barbaric customs to be sanctioned by the government, no other corporal punishment would be overlooked in this country.
We should never accept the use of violence( and im not talking about a smack on the bum) against children or anyone for that matter, no matter what or how old the tradition is.
 
As for the tribal punishment issue, Im 100% against it, we do not allow the use of violence to punish 'white' australians so we cannot allow it to be used against Aboriginal Australians.

Guess you've never seen riot cops in action.
Billy clubs, choke holds, mounted police charges, capsicum spray; ive seen the lot.
Police have a monopoly on violence in Australian 'civil' society. Notice that they carry guns, tasers? Both potentially lethal weapons. Violence is practiced against Australians by the governments' "protectors of law and order" every day.

I think youre bringing up irrelevant points of cultural difference in an effort to muddy your shaky arguments. What does your last point (tribal law) have to do with the thread?
Not a racist? Methinks thou dost protest too much.
 
What? read two posts above mine, I was replying to bunnymorros post. Will you call Bunnymorros post is irrelevant? or is that only reserved for people who disagree with you?

Hahaha! You really have me pinned as some right wing fascist haven't you.

Im confused, are you against the violence of both the police and tribal law?
 
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