Organ donation & presumed consent - should the state own our disease riddled corpses?

[badandwicked]

Organ donation & presumed consent - should the state own our disease riddled corpses?

So a bill was passed in Wales giving presumed consent for organ donation...

I see the following debated on Facebook -

First of all, "presumed consent", is a contradiction in terms. Consent is explicit, and therefore cannot be presumed.

Secondly, the state has no purview over our bodies, other than perhaps a public health obligation, or in the case of a post-mortem.

Thirdly, the family has the first right to decide what should happen to a loved one's body.

I understand the fears and concerns about the state assuming consent on any subject. But then I consider the living to be more important than the dead.

What you sayin'?

 

[Ceres]

tesco gotta get the ingredients for their readymeals from *somewhere* now the horses have dried up.

 

[badandwicked]

I've often thought I'd make a delicious lasagne.

 

[Urbain]

Im an organ donor, and I also give blood on a regular basis. If organ donation saves lives, and where the organs would otherwise go to waste, then why on earth not? Pretty good thing, to give the chance of life to another person. I'm dead, its no skin off my nose. (No pun intended).

 

[badandwicked]

I think its the presumed consent thing thats the issue Urbain, not whether or not donation is a good thing. I agree with you and am a donor too.

 

[Myshkin]

Can't even give my organ away in the street. Ahem.

I genuinely believe that most people with any objection to organ donation (religious or otherwise) would take pains to exempt themselves early on. Exemption should be a simple, easy process of course, rather than some drawn-out affair.

As for those much-discussed families of the deceased who are horrified at the very thought of grandad's missing pancreas, you have to question their motivation in many cases. If their 'loved one' / despised blood relative wished for their remains to be scattered around the local red-light district or fed to their favourite cockroach, would they be so adamant that their dying wishes were carried out?

I usually prefer to side with the dead over the living any day of the week, but this is one issue where people sometimes lose sight of reality. Which is not to say that anybody should be coerced.

 

[Bearlove]

I genuinely believe that most people with any objection to organ donation (religious or otherwise) would take pains to exempt themselves early on. Exemption should be a simple, easy process of course, rather than some drawn-out affair.

As for those much-discussed families of the deceased who are horrified at the very thought of grandad's missing pancreas, you have to question their motivation in many cases. If their 'loved one' / despised blood relative wished for their remains to be scattered around the local red-light district or fed to their favourite cockroach, would they be so adamant that their dying wishes were carried out?

I completely agree with this - I don't mind any part of my body being used when I'm dead. Mind you ... as we now have the ability to be a living donor how far down the line would it be that we should expect to live on one Kidney, Half a Liver, One eye etc.

It's all good thinking your going to be used when you die but what happens if your selected to give up a Kidney etc.

 

[badandwicked]

^ have you read Never let me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro? Scary stuff indeed.

I'm not a parent but I can imagine how if you lost a child you might not like the thought of their body being dismantled. Grief does strange things to logic. But then I can also imagine joy at knowing another child has a shot at life and their death hasn't been in vain.

 

[BlindHelperMonkey]

ostensibly im in favour, but they need to sort out the infrastructure first. nhs disorganisation leads to a shocking amount of waste of what we already have. how will we cope with this deluge of organs? the last thing thats needed is some sort of overlooked disease or something getting missed amid the white noise



besides, this is likely one of those policies inaugurated for no other reason that it being a relatively uncontroversial way to create a clear difference in philosophy between itself and its mother parliament. its possible that its idealogical, i guess, though still think it more likely trolling small issuess under their limited auspice, looking for a nationalist thread to pull in the hope of ever-increasing support and the resulting increase in pressure for further reform

 

[Bearlove]

^ have you read Never let me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro? Scary stuff indeed.

I'm not a parent but I can imagine how if you lost a child you might not like the thought of their body being dismantled. Grief does strange things to logic. But then I can also imagine joy at knowing another child has a shot at life and their death hasn't been in vain.

I have never read it - would you care to explain it further? Grief certainly dose do thing to logic - but what do we base logic (in this case) on? If I (personally) was losing a loved one I (personally) would allow their body to be used in the hope that it would help others.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Isn't it just religious idiots against this? Because they fear going to heaven missing a kidney or some bit? I don't see what possible objections rational people have to this and I'm proud to live in Wales where they're pioneering it.

 

[Myshkin]

Isn't it just religious idiots against this? Because they fear going to heaven missing a kidney or some bit?

Organ donation is supported by pretty much every major religion in the country. Any objection tends to be based on individual interpretation of the tenets of said religion.

There are, however, people who practice esoteric religions (or 'harbour different beliefs' if you want to skirt the 'r'-word) as well as those who simply don't fancy the idea. While you may regard them as 'idiots', surely they have the right to refuse?

I don't see what possible objections rational people have to this

The most rational people are at least 50% 'irrational'; it's part of being human, and thank fuck for it.

Besides, who's to say that the person objecting to the donation of their organs doesn't have a somewhat 'rational' justification for it?

I'm sure there are some 'rational' objections to the widespread availability of khat, to use a topical example.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Then tell me the rational justification. I'm all ears. Until I die.

 

[Myshkin]

Rational justification for what? Organ refuseniks or banning khat? I'm not about to do either of those things.

Explain why you love your family in 'rational' terms. Doesn't work, does it?

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Rational justification for what? Organ refuseniks or banning khat? I'm not about to do either of those things.

What your post said when I replied to it. Before the edit.

Besides, who's to say that the person objecting to the donation of their organs doesn't have a somewhat 'rational' justification for it?

Then tell me the rational justification. Start with the words "They may prefer to hold on to body parts that are of no use to their dead selves in preference over the possible saving a life because...

I'm interested in the 'somewhat rational' justification and you seem to have more informed knowledge than I. So educate me.

 

[Mailmonkey]

I agree with the Bill. Should be able to take what they need to help someone else.

"Presumed consent" does seem a bit oxymoronic.

 

[Myshkin]

Then tell me the rational justification.

Erm... notice the inverted commas on the 'rational'. I'm not saying their excuse would be rational as such, just that it may make sense to them.

I don't think someobody should have to produce a 'rational' excuse to the state for something that's ultimately a personal choice. The presumed consent system will eradicate the organ shortages which have led to its inception. Therefore there'll be no organ shortage, so no need to coerce those who may opt to refuse.

Or do you want a Stalinist-style interrogation of any refuseniks? Are they going to be forced to provide a 'rational' justification? Who's to decide what is and isn't a 'rational' objection? Or, for that matter, what spiritual beliefs are acceptable?

Is state tyranny all well and good when it's all for a 'good cause'?

 

[knock]

Do fossilised humans have any say about their bones being dug up and analysed by archaeologists? Should they? What difference does 20,000 years make if you're dead?

I'm not sure about this one, just throwing that in. In general I think dead bodies should be fair game but I also think it should be a decision made by ordinary people, not the state.

 

[parttime crackhead]

Can't even give my organ away in the street. Ahem.

I genuinely believe that most people with any objection to organ donation (religious or otherwise) would take pains to exempt themselves early on. Exemption should be a simple, easy process of course, rather than some drawn-out affair.

As for those much-discussed families of the deceased who are horrified at the very thought of grandad's missing pancreas, you have to question their motivation in many cases. If their 'loved one' / despised blood relative wished for their remains to be scattered around the local red-light district or fed to their favourite cockroach, would they be so adamant that their dying wishes were carried out?

I usually prefer to side with the dead over the living any day of the week, but this is one issue where people sometimes lose sight of reality. Which is not to say that anybody should be coerced.

I agree. Shocking, eh?

If anyone truly objects then they'll deal with it while they're alive. If they don't really give a fuck (shown by them not making a decision either way) then have their fucking organs. When I die they can do what they like with my organs. Pull my eyes out & sellotape them to lab rats for all I care. I'll be dead. I won't need them.

Isn't it just religious idiots against this? Because they fear going to heaven missing a kidney or some bit? I don't see what possible objections rational people have to this and I'm proud to live in Wales where they're pioneering it.

Indeed.

Religious people are irrational by definition.

 

[justinsayno]

they can take my lungs and kidneys
but heart belongs to daphney

daphney!