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Ondansetron (Zofran) for cleaner feeling trips

Forever Jung

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Joined
Mar 16, 2017
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46
So far I have tried ondansetron combined with 1p-LSD, MDMA, 2CB, Eth-LAD and have found it to not only reduce nausea, but my trip feels subjectively "cleaner" for lack of a better word. I understand ondansetron is a 5HT3 antagonist that is quite selective. Has anybody else used ondansetron in combination with psychedelic drugs to improve the quality of the trip (forgetting about the anti-nausea effects for the moment).

FJ
 
Very interesting, would love to hear more on this topic. What dosages are you using fj?
 
8mg generic ondansetron (one tablet), combined with

(250ug Eth LAD + 100mg MDMA at T=6:00h)
+/- trip was a dud
threshold effects only possibly due to an isolated three-day meth binge a week before

(200ug 1P LSD + 100mg MDMA at T=6:00h)
+++ had a very nice time watching the 2017 movie Samadhi experience was very clear radiant and mystical. The movie had brilliant eye candy and talked about subjects that are important to me

(2CB 25mg - 30mg)
++ no nausea on come up even on a large- ish oral dose. Breathing walls, colored visual distortions, sex was simply spectacular indescribable so good we didn't even want any MDMA
 
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Interesting indeed...8)

Does Ondansetron "decrease" the speediness at all?
 
I don't think asking my doctor for a script for ondansetron so I can enjoy trips more would go down well.
 
Ondansetron Wiki
zofran1.gif

Ondansetron HCl dihydrate is a white to off-white powder that is soluble in water and normal saline.
The active ingredient in ZOFRAN ODT® Orally Disintegrating Tablets is ondansetron base, the racemic form of ondansetron, and a selective blocking agent of the serotonin 5-HT3 receptor type. Chemically it is (±) 1, 2, 3, 9-tetrahydro-9-methyl-3-[(2-methyl-1H-imidazol-1-yl)methyl]-4Hcarbazol- 4-one. The empirical formula is C18H19N3O representing a molecular weight of 293.4.
RXlist
Ondansetron is a highly specific and selective serotonin 5-HT3 receptor antagonist, with low affinity for dopamine receptors. The 5-HT3 receptors are present both peripherally on vagal nerve terminals and centrally in the chemoreceptor trigger zone of the area postrema. Serotonin is released by the enterochromaffin cells of the small intestine in response to chemotherapeutic agents and may stimulate vagal afferents (via 5-HT3 receptors) to initiate the vomiting reflex. It is thought that ondansetron's antiemetic action is mediated mostly via antagonism of vagal afferents with a minor contribution from antagonism of central receptors.[19]
Ondansetron, marketed under the brand name Zofran, is a medication used to prevent nausea and vomiting caused by cancer chemotherapy, radiation therapy, or surgery.[1] It is also useful in gastroenteritis.[2][3] It has little effect on vomiting caused by motion sickness.[4] It can be given by mouth, by injection into a muscle or into a vein.[1]
Common side effects include diarrhea, constipation, headache, sleepiness, and itchiness. Serious side effects include QT prolongation and severe allergic reaction. It appears to be safe during pregnancy but has not been well studied in this group. It does not have any effect on dopamine receptors or muscarinic receptors.[5]
Ondansetron was first used medically in 1990.[6] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the most effective and safe medicines needed in a health system.[7] It is available as a generic medication.[1]

Ondansetron is well absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and undergoes some first-pass metabolism. Mean bioavailability in healthy subjects, following administration of a single 8-mg tablet, is approximately 56%.
Ondansetron systemic exposure does not increase proportionately to dose. AUC from a 16-mg tablet was 24% greater than predicted from an 8-mg tablet dose. This may reflect some reduction of first-pass metabolism at higher oral doses. Bioavailability is also slightly enhanced by the presence of food but unaffected by antacids.
Ondansetron is extensively metabolized in humans, with approximately 5% of a radiolabeled dose recovered as the parent compound from the urine. The primary metabolic pathway is hydroxylation on the indole ring followed by subsequent glucuronide or sulfate conjugation. Although some nonconjugated metabolites have pharmacologic activity, these are not found in plasma at concentrations likely to significantly contribute to the biological activity of ondansetron.
In vitro metabolism studies have shown that ondansetron is a substrate for human hepatic cytochrome P-450 enzymes, including CYP1A2, CYP2D6, and CYP3A4. In terms of overall ondansetron turnover, CYP3A4 played the predominant role. Because of the multiplicity of metabolic enzymes capable of metabolizing ondansetron, it is likely that inhibition or loss of one enzyme (e.g., CYP2D6 genetic deficiency) will be compensated by others and may result in little change in overall rates of ondansetron elimination. Ondansetron elimination may be affected by cytochrome P-450 inducers.[Safe to take with MAOI??]


PRECAUTIONS
: DRUG INTERACTIONS.
<===[Keep in mind that a lot of those folks were on serious chemo meds that had bad reactions]

Serotonergic Drugs:

Serotonin syndrome (including altered mental status, autonomic instability, and neuromuscular symptoms) has been described following the concomitant use of 5-HT3 receptor antagonists and other serotonergic drugs, including selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) (see WARNINGS).
And...
Four selective 5-HT3 (serotonin-3) receptor antagonists are available for use in North America and/or Europe for the prevention of acute chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting (CINV): dolasetron, ondansetron, granisetron and tropisetron. Although these agents have some pharmacological differences in 5-HT3 receptor binding affinity, selectivity and metabolism, these minor variations have not resulted in clinically meaningful differences in efficacy amongst them. Therefore, according to current evidence-based and consensus guidelines, these 5-HT3 receptor antagonists are equivalent with regard to efficacy and are therapeutically interchangeable when used at equipotent doses [1–4].
Palonosetron is a highly potent, selective, second-generation 5-HT3 receptor antagonist with a 5-HT3 receptor binding affinity that is ∼100-fold higher than other 5-HT3 receptor antagonists (pKi 10.5 compared with 8.91 for granisetron, 8.81 for tropisetron, 8.39 for ondansetron, 7.6 for dolasetron) [12–14]. Palonosetron also has an extended plasma elimination half-life of ∼40 h [15], significantly longer than others in its class (ondansetron, 4 h [16]; tropisetron, 7.3 h [17]; dolasetron, 7.5 h [18]; granisetron, 8.9 h [19])




Other anecdotal UTFSE Tidbits:
Bluelight: "Seeking Advice for Experienced Users of Ondansetron
Reddit: "Ondansetron for Psychedelic Nausea"
Other search results: content did not apply to OP

A user on Shroomery claims that Lemon Essential Oils also act as a 5HT3 antagonist as it contains the terpene "β-Pinene" (5-7 drops)

I know firsthand that several strains of Cannabis also contain β-Pinene including Jack Herer, Chemdawg, Bubba Kush, Trainwreck, Super Silver Haze...I Used to be a pro dab maker, with a specific interest in medicinal properties of terpenes

β-Pinene:
ImagesHandler.ashx



I will continue to research this with different Phen's: (2C-E, Mescaline, Thiolated 2C's?) Trypt's: (4-HO-DMT, Pharmahausca?, αMT), and Lysergamides (LSD, 1P, Eth, Al,)[Dissociatives/Aryl's/Anesthetics maybe potentially dangerous.~FJ] I will report back on this thread but it might be a slow roll as I don't want tolerance to build up skewing my research, or give myself serotonin syndrome. I will go slower as I go deeper :)

I wonder if this could open up Bufotenine to be recreational/therapeutic although I've never seen the chem in the wild.

PS: Rx was for nausea associated with Suboxone tapering, Dr. was happy to prescribe. (I'm 1+ month clean now with 0 opiates and still in PAWS...Lysergamides are helping me get my life back, and I highly recommend if you are struggling w/ addiction)

Bluelight is the shit. I know I'm not the only one who has considered 5HT3 antag's w/ psychedelics and I want to pick your brains!! Solipsis, Fastandbulbous, JesusGreen, Xorkoth, MGS, ...I'm looking at you 8o I read the PD forums here like its my job and I respect your informed opinions!! And I didn't see a Big&Dandy ondansetron thread might it be appropriate?

WTL/DR: 1.Can I take this with an MAOI? 2. beta pinene is also a 5HT3 antagonist found in lemon essential oil and cannabis 3. does anybody ever get to see bufotenene (not trying to source just wondering if it exists outside of toad venom)
 
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Excellent thread! I'm very interested to know which psychedelic tend to cause nausea via 5HT3 and which just act particularly on nausea areas in the brain.

Awesome username btw =D
 
Can I take this with an MAOI?

According to my limited research / observations on the molecular structure, it should be fine. Most of the warnings about drug interactions with Ondansetron seem to involve CYP inhibitors, anway.

2. beta pinene is also a 5HT3 antagonist found in lemon essential oil and cannabis

Is it really potent enough to become clinically relevant at normal doses though? Cheese contains degraded milk proteins that happen to weakly bind to opioid receptors, and people foolishly assume that *this* is why cheese is so addictive, as opposed to the neurotransmitters our brain releases to reward us for ingesting a substance chock full of calories and easily available amino acids. I mean obviously cannabis is an effective antiemetic, but it's questionable whether that is because of the beta-pinene or the, you know, cannabinoids ;)

3. does anybody ever get to see bufotenene (not trying to source just wondering if it exists outside of toad venom)

I don't think there's really a market for synthetic bufotenine because it's just not an effective psychedelic.
With the Hydroxyl-group in the 5-position, it's just too polar to effectively cross into the brain. So to make it work you'd either have to methylate the hydroxyl (which would be 5-MeO-DMT), or switch the hydroxyl group from the 5- to the 4-position (which would be 4-HO-DMT aka Psilocin, the active form of Psilocybin).
 
Maybe propionylate the 5-HO? Isobutyryl even.
 
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United States NIH: "Can 5-T3 Antagonists Really Contribute to Serotonin Toxicity"? <=====A very good journal from NIH's "real world drug outcomes"
Another issue that merits clarification centres around which classes of drugs are serotonergic and thus capable of precipitating severe ST in certain combinations. It is useful to consider these questions: (1) Can the drug lead to serotonergic side effects? (2) Are serotonergic side effects observed in overdose? (3) If co-administered with monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), are moderate to severe serotonergic side effects observed? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then the drug may possess relevant serotonergic properties, namely MAOIs, serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SRIs), and presynaptic serotonin releasers (e.g. MDMA) [47]. In cases of overdose or in certain combinations, these drugs can sufficiently elevate synaptic serotonin and cause overt toxicity. Yet it should be noted that altering each of these mechanisms individually will produce only a specific maximum effect, as demonstrated by the observation that overdoses of SRIs alone do not precipitate severe or fatal ST, or temperature elevations above 38.5 °C [47]. Conversely, 25 % of overdoses of SRIs and moclobemide will result in life-threatening ST, the risk being higher with older MAOIs [4]. This makes sense when considering the pharmacology of the drugs and the physiological mechanisms that regulate 5-HT at the neuronal level [4, 8]. SRIs will acutely elevate synaptic 5-HT by inhibiting its reuptake, but good evidence demonstrates that there is a ceiling effect [6, 7]. Once 5-HT reuptake has been maximally inhibited, there is nothing else that can raise 5-HT levels except to inhibit its breakdown vis-à-vis adding a MAOI, making the combination predictably toxic [4]. As for ondansetron, this 5-HT3 antagonist possesses no agonist properties and thus would not be expected to produce serotonergic effects [9].

so the message I get is that taking my 8mg tablet is about as safe as it gets, as long as you stay out of "the danger zone" with whatever other drugs you use. The article that had me worrying about Disso/Aryl/Anesthetic interactions was

RxList.com Ondansetron Warnings
The development of serotonin syndrome has been reported with 5-HT3 receptor antagonists alone. Most reports have been associated with concomitant use of serotonergic drugs (e.g., selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs), monoamine oxidase inhibitors, mirtazapine, fentanyl, lithium, tramadol, and intravenous methylene blue). Some of the reported cases were fatal. Serotonin syndrome occurring with overdose of ZOFRAN alone has also been reported. The majority of reports of serotonin syndrome related to 5-HT3 receptor antagonist use occurred in a post-anesthesia care unit or an infusion center. Interactions with general or local anesthetics have not been studied.

and just incase you thought it would be a good idea...
United States FDA: "Don't IV 32mg of ondansetron"
because you will have an irregular heartbeat
 
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Quetiapine antagonizes 5HT1A, 5HT2A and 5HT7 but with an SSRI like fluoxetine also can produce arrhythmia also apparently especially QT interval related...

Ondansetron is an antagonist and as such would indeed not be expected to have serotonergic effects directly, but it seems the thing to look out for is serious imbalance between different parts of the same neurotransmitter household just like one should be careful with beta-blockers to counter certain stim effects. It looks smart on paper but can be quite dangerous - coincidence or not, also on the heart.

It doesn't necessarily mean that ondansetron must not be taken with psychedelics, I don't know that and never heard something to directly suggest a warning like that, but there are likely limits to how far you should take that. It's always a game of odds, and gradually taking this too far could gradually give you unfavorable odds...

So it couldn't hurt to consider what kind of dosages you want to use and whether it's such a great idea with e.g. dosages of aMT that are on the high side. Maybe better to avoid the 'serotonergic freaks' tramadol seems to be a good example of.
 
Quetiapine antagonizes 5HT1A, 5HT2A and 5HT7 but with an SSRI like fluoxetine also can produce arrhythmia also apparently especially QT interval related...

Ondansetron is an antagonist and as such would indeed not be expected to have serotonergic effects directly, but it seems the thing to look out for is serious imbalance between different parts of the same neurotransmitter household just like one should be careful with beta-blockers to counter certain stim effects. It looks smart on paper but can be quite dangerous - coincidence or not, also on the heart.

It doesn't necessarily mean that ondansetron must not be taken with psychedelics, I don't know that and never heard something to directly suggest a warning like that, but there are likely limits to how far you should take that. It's always a game of odds, and gradually taking this too far could gradually give you unfavorable odds...

So it couldn't hurt to consider what kind of dosages you want to use and whether it's such a great idea with e.g. dosages of aMT that are on the high side. Maybe better to avoid the 'serotonergic freaks' tramadol seems to be a good example of.

Tramadol is super hard to combine with any other thing that tampers with the Serotoninergic system, it's on its own an SRI, it antagonises 5-ht2c, thus lowering seizure threshold, and also acts as a 5-ht releasing agent, all of this is a recipe for disaster. It's also metabolized by CYP2D6 and CYP3A4, while Ondansetron is also metabolised by CYP3A4, CYP2D6 and CYP1A2.

I can personally account against this combo as I once had a patient in the ER who thought it would be a great idea to combat Tramadol's nausea (which is freaking nasty if you've ever had it) with Ondansetron.
 
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Fascinating and unfortunate... it was merely an example that doesn't apply to the main topic: what is the interaction like with psychedelics? Well I already hinted at it: they are not created equal...

2C-T-(2/4/7), mescaline and aMT are notorious for causing nausea or GI issues, not to mention DMT+MAOI, maybe 5-MeO-DiPT...
I might take mescaline with ondansetron over the other possible combo's but yeah how to deal with this?
 
I don't think there's really a market for synthetic bufotenine because it's just not an effective psychedelic.
With the Hydroxyl-group in the 5-position, it's just too polar to effectively cross into the brain. So to make it work you'd either have to methylate the hydroxyl (which would be 5-MeO-DMT), or switch the hydroxyl group from the 5- to the 4-position (which would be 4-HO-DMT aka Psilocin, the active form of Psilocybin).

Bufotenine is very active, I've read quite a variety of reports of smoking it and causing extreme experiences around the level of intensity of DMT. I think the reason there's no market is because the experience generally comes with a really heavy and terrifying bodyload.

psood0nym (RIP :() used to talk about combining ondansetron with psychedelics and he recommended it. He also claimed that combining it with DXM produced an amazing trip. In each case it was largely due to the fact that it made the drugs feel cleaner and without any nausea.
 
Yeah I enjoyed my time with Ondanestron. I used it for probably about two years when I was tripping every weekend.
 
8mg generic ondansetron (one tablet), combined with

(250ug Eth LAD + 100mg MDMA at T=6:00h)
+/- trip was a dud
threshold effects only possibly due to an isolated three-day meth binge a week before

(200ug 1P LSD + 100mg MDMA at T=6:00h)
+++ had a very nice time watching the 2017 movie Samadhi experience was very clear radiant and mystical. The movie had brilliant eye candy and talked about subjects that are important to me

(2CB 25mg - 30mg)
++ no nausea on come up even on a large- ish oral dose. Breathing walls, colored visual distortions, sex was simply spectacular indescribable so good we didn't even want any MDMA

Do you dose the Ondansetron simultaneous with the PD, or do you preload it?
 
So Far, I have just taken ondansetron + psychedelic simultaneously. In the future, I will probably pre-load, especially if I intend to take MDMA.

Here is my plan to use this safely with MDMA.
T=0:00 ingest 8mg ondansetron tablet.
T=2:00 Take psychedelic
T=8:00 Probably safe to ingest MDMA at this point

The oral half-life for ondansetron is ~4hrs, and it is about 56% bioavailable when swallowed. So, after 2 half-lives, I will take the presynaptic serotonin releaser (MDMA), only 1.12mg of ondansetron should be active and available. This seems insignificant enough on its own, but also consider that ondansetron acts mostly on the vagal nerves by your stomach and small intestine, and is only "somewhat" (how much?) active in the central nervous system.

I do intend to explore this combination with some psychedelics that have bad nausea/body loads, and could say deserve more caution than lysergamides and classic phen's. I loved 2CE's headspace, but that nausea almost makes it not worth it. I have only tried 2CE once, and I stupidly thought I could use promethazine to prevent nausea. It did not prevent nausea at all, only prevented me from puking, so I was sick AF for a few hours camping on the beach. The stars were exploding firework disco balls, which was cool and I remember that fondly. I think this is the direction my research will go first. In preparation for 2CE experimentation, I found some more 2CB and MDMA...(and if the stars align) will be doing a bioassay later this week :)
 
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Yeah I was thinking it would be useful for 2C-E too. I've never had direct nausea from it, but there was a bit of queasiness that I was kind of side-stepping if you know what I mean. I can imagine something like ondansetron improving the 2c-e experience.
 
I use it (8 mg) for every trip. For sure, it helps with the nausea. It's expensive in the U.S.A, but much cheaper in the overseas markets.
 
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