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On Nature, morality, and God

M

methamaniac

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
976
Why do some people treat nature as a a god?
Why give a dam about nature if it is solely what lead to our existence.
No other animal pays it no mind.
They could give two shits
Seems like nature could give two shits about us.
We're expendable!

Why would a human care? Why pay respect to it?
Use it and abuse it.
If your nice to nature or not dont make a difference. Your still ending up in a box.
Thanks for the trouble!
SO my daughter lives on,
woopy doo, welcome to a very sucky dangerous place little girl. Hope when some douche bag breaks your heart you thank me for bringing you in this hell hole.
But dont worry honey, you'll be dead soon enough so wont matter whether u thank me or not.

We're just tools. Our say dont count for squat.
I like this, I dont like that.
Shut the hell up, liking or disliking anything ain't even a relevant question.
^ (Caricature)

But ahh, we do demand justice.
"Thats not fair". Who in the hell decides fair?
Fair for u, fair for me
? Its all relative/objective.
Who makes the ultimate decision on what is fair or not? Right or wrong? Is it even a valid question?
If not why believe in right or wrong?
You've just bought an illusion!

Is there an absolute moral law?
If so doesn't that beg question of a moral law giver?
If no moral law why do you subscribe to any set of morals?
Are you the moral law giver?
Is nature the moral law giver?
What makes your moral law set in stone?
Natures law says fatten up. Grab all the shit you can, and dont pay no mind to that guys head you just stepped on to get it. Greed is good isn't it?

" We can have some more, nature is a whore"!
Your my friend cause I need u. You are "my known enemy".

( warning stop here if you hate God)

No, not "me". I demand justice.
So fairly I must demand justice OF me.
If I subscribe to idea of fairness that is.
The golden rule in reverse if you will.
Have done to me what I would have done to others.
Im guilty! Who or what convicts me?
Is there a way to be pardoned?

Thankfully yes........
Its your choice. You body gives you the experience that your mind can not alone.
You've touched the stove you know it is hot.
You've been alone, you know its lonely.
You have experienced goodness/love
you're aware it is the absence of evil/hate.
You have had love and lost it, you know what it means to be separated from it.

You can not sever two masters. One will be loved more making you hate the other.
Time to cast your vote. You are aware of the consequences.
You can yell its not fair as you fall off the cliff,
but you had a parachute on the whole way down.

You just chose not to use it.
You decided your fate by default.
Is it the creator or the creation?

( This is a spiritual and philosophical
forum. You may present your view.
Take what you want leave what u dont.)
 
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If your speaking in terms of Nihilism, you don't really give a shit about nature. Nihilism isn't just "right or wrong", it is based on significance (Obviously, there's a lot more to it than that, though). You are not more or less significant than a rock, and the rock is not more or less significant than the universe, so it wouldn't matter what happened to the planet, it's just what you want to do. If you choose to murder someone else, it's not any different than saving a life; so the only thing that guides you is what you want to do.
 
Yes in terms of Ethical/Moral Nihilism.
I do not subscribe to it.
More a response to those who do......
 
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RichardMooner said:
If your speaking in terms of Nihilism, you don't really give a shit about nature. Nihilism isn't just "right or wrong", it is based on significance (Obviously, there's a lot more to it than that, though). You are not more or less significant than a rock, and the rock is not more or less significant than the universe, so it wouldn't matter what happened to the planet, it's just what you want to do. If you choose to murder someone else, it's not any different than saving a life; so the only thing that guides you is what you want to do.
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This is the most retarded explaination of nihilism I've seen, and I've seen plenty of psuedo-nihilism bs in pop culture
 
Abject said:
This is the most retarded explanation of nihilism I've seen, and I've seen plenty of psuedo-nihilism bs in pop culture
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This is not an explanation of Nihilism, I was talking about a very small piece of it. Hence "There's a lot more to it"
 
You said nihilism has ties to significance, which is entirely true, then you go on to say that relationship is that significance does not exist and everything is as significant as everything else, which is entirely false (in relation to nihilism, not whether it's true/false as an idea)
 
methamaniac said:
Why do some people treat nature as a a god?
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Given what many people believe is the truth of 'nature' (which I don't think you've defined here, so I would look at nature as the objective processes of the external universe), that we emerged from it and are a part of it entirely, completely inseperable, it makes sense to me to hold nature in high regard and really, truly value it; without it, you and everything does not exist- by that token, it appears quite significant.

That perspective, that nature is the fundamental component of existence, really renders all opinion and description of it void. It is exactly what it is, changing and still consistent, exactly like what people claim the Christian god is except this manifests with some clarity, at the least.

No other animal pays it no mind.
They could give two shits
Seems like nature could give two shits about us.
We're expendable!
Click to expand...

To the contrary, every animal that exists pays complete and utter regard to nature, including ourselves. Expendanble? Not at all. Matter cannot be spontaneously created in the real universe- every atom of your body has existed in countless other forms, and will continue to be used as such. You are, literally, essentialto (and of) the Universe. The matter that comprises you will never be lost or destroyed; it cannot ever be considered expendable.

I understand that you are being sarcastic for most of the post, but some points required a response.:) You should note that sarcasm rarely works online; its easy to misconstrue.

I think that you've spent quite a few words trying to trivialise something here. You seem to think that taking the non-god point of view gives rise to meaninglessness, indifference, futility. "Why care about nature? What is the point?". That there doesn't need to be a point in something for it to be fulfilling doesn't appear to have entered your mind. I love my life and have filled it with all sorts of things, from music to tripping to meditation to spirituality to science and art and blah, and I utterly do not believe in the Christian conception of god. I do not see why we need the approval of a largely absent and impossible to discern father to enjoy our lives and discover purpose and see beauty. Those things are for everybody :) As is nature and the natural world. It is brutal, but brutality is a human invention. The natural world is just in a way that is cruel to our minds, but we invented and perfected cruelty ourselves. In that sense, we find human qualities in nature, but only existing in the natural human ;) The natural world is non-negotiable, it doesn't bargain or compromise, but it has still given rise to ALL, and for that should be valued and understanding of it sought. IMO of course, each to their own.

This may be mysterious or incomprehensible to you, but I feel happy without god. I don't feel anything lacking. Nature has always provided all that we need; hearing it can be difficult and, I believe, when it does 'speak', it can be misheard give rise to all the notions of godhood we've ever seen. IMO :) All Hail the Sun! :D
 
^You can't separate yourself from the concept of God, or morality from the concept of God, though, because it had so much to do with the development of society, morality and modern thinking. We may not need God now (I'm not going to argue that) but it certainly served a purpose in the past and enabled us to be here, today.
 
^I don't really agree. I think early morality was the same as now; created by humans. I don't think anything happened to Moses, except that he devised some rules (maybe some already held by that society) and then named god as the author. Given that I don't believe in god, why would I believe that god created morality? Even if it was the concept of god, its still humans doing it...
 
Yeah, that's why I said concept of God.

I don't think anything happened to Moses
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I'm not sure about Moses, but people throughout history have certainly had divine experiences. I have. I take it you haven't. I don't expect you to believe. It's practically impossible to take God for granted based on what someone else says, especially considering the amount of people who claim to have seen a posthumous living Elvis. Those who do take it for granted, call this "faith"; they don't know God, they just believe that somebody else did at some point. Much is unavoidably lost in translation. Divine experiences are difficult to process, let alone begin to explain. I desperately want to explain them to someone, but there are countless examples of similar attempts being misunderstood throughout history. I can't guarantee that my words will not cause harm, in the long run, so I keep to myself.

Faith is dwindling as science develops, which is totally understandable. (Even though God is, for lack of a more appropriate term, far more "mathematical" than linguistic.) The concept of God - to the uninitiated - seems to contradict what we know.

The Bible and other holy texts are written by men\women, struggling to explain the inexplicable. It could not have possibly taken into account scientific discoveries yet to be made. Discounting on such grounds is unfair, but inevitable.

I respect those with faith to some extent, although I think it's often misguided and/or based on the misinterpretation of other people's imperfect descriptions of their divine experiences. Without these divine experiences to create their faith, however, we wouldn't be here today.

We can argue all day about whether or not it's the concept of God, or God. (That's why I chose to write "concept" in the first place.) But, then, we might as well have a pissing into the wind competition.
 
^Sorry if my post was somewhat abrupt or seemed rude; it wasn't intended to be.

Either way, if the concept of god gave birth to morality and humans gave birth to the concept of god....? Makes no difference. I'm just not sure there's really much evidence to claim that humanity would not have discovered morality without religion; moreso, religion probably ratified pre-exisiting codes of law. I really doubt that humans ran wild in complete amoral chaos until about 8000 years ago.

Hmm.

Foreverafter said:
but people throughout history have certainly had divine experiences. I have. I take it you haven't
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I'm not sure why you would assume that. I guess I see what happened to Moses as something less then divine, if you consider the commandments he was gifted with. Surely seems like very human proscriptions. Though I can imagine that adding some weight, claiming they came from God- which was my point.

Back to your assumption, you would be quite wrong. :) I have never emerged from these experiences with a new code of ethics, true, but I have had quite a number of experiences I would describe as mystical, with less then a quarter being from drugs. I experienced a sequence of quite odd events on Thursday night for which I have little explanation. I see no reason to involve god in this sort of thing...
 
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You didn't come across as rude, at all.

I'm just not sure there's really much evidence to claim that humanity would not have discovered morality without religion
Click to expand...

There is zero. How could there be any?

if the concept of god gave birth to morality and humans gave birth to the concept of god
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What I said wasn't adequately clear.

I'll rephrase "the concept of God" to: "whatever happened that gave birth to morality; the thing you think we mislabelled as God".

(Correctification complete.)

I have never emerged from these experiences with a new code of ethics, true, but I have had quite a number of experiences I would describe as mystical
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I'm not talking about mystical experiences. I too have had mystical experiences aplenty. I'm talking about divine experiences. It is clear, from what you're saying, that you haven't encountered God, otherwise you would believe in God.

I see no reason to involve god in this sort of thing.
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Precisely why I "assume" you didn't have an experience that would have given you a reason.

I really doubt that humans ran wild in complete amoral chaos until about 8000 years ago.
Click to expand...

I didn't say anything about 8000 years. Humans were animals (read: amoral chaos) at one point, then they began to divert. There are no solid historical records of this, obviously.

I guess I see what happened to Moses as something less then divine
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As I said, I'm not sure about Moses. I don't even know if he was a real person. (I haven't researched it enough, to make that conclusion.) The Bible is not a historical account. Jesus wasn't a real person. So, I have no reason to assume that Moses was or that he had a divine experience. It does, however, appear to be a fairly poor and misguided attempt at translating part of the divine.

If someone named Moses did indeed write the books, which I am not convinced, they weren't literal accounts of his life.

If you cross-reference all holy texts ever written and remove anomalies, the similarities between these accounts and actual divine experiences is astounding.
 
You guys are avoiding what I defined as nature's law.
Does nature have clear defined laws on morality?
If not what gives you gives your laws authority?
Moreover, why should I respect them/care?
 
methamaniac said:
You guys are avoiding what I defined as nature's law.
Does nature have clear defined laws on morality?
If not what gives you gives your laws authority?
Moreover, why should I respect them/care?
Click to expand...

I don't believe that you to need believe in God to have a sense of right and wrong; God just makes sense of that right and wrong. Right and wrong are endemic to man, God is the explanation.

God turns that sense into knowledge.
 
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Moreover, why should I respect them/care?
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You have to live by them to avoid jail time, I guess.
The laws in the Bible are not God's laws. Surely you don't live by the laws in Deuteronomny?
 
According to Genesis - God didn't give a fuck about nature, every other living organism was here to be dominated by humans and used as a means for our survival, so maybe the question should not be "Why do Atheists care about nature?", but rather "Why do Christians care about nature?".
 
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