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Official Paedo Discussion Megathread v2

Yeah your right you are too simple to identify his motives, so I will if I may point out the bleeding obvious he did it because he enjoyed it.

You've missed the point and been a tit about it. Well done.

Obviously he derived some kind of pleasure from his activities. It's not like he was doing these things because he wanted to have a harrowing experience, is it?

Unless you think that these are perfectly normal fantasies (which I don't believe you do) then we can only gain from understanding the reasons behind his actions as best we can. Otherwise we're no better off and no further towards preventing such things occurring in the future.
 
IAN WATKINS' CRIMES WILL FORCE THOUSANDS TO REIMAGINE THEIR ADOLESCENCE

Kurt Vonnegut used to have a riff about Eva Braun: "Her only crime was to let a monster ejaculate in her birth canal." Well, it now seems that an entire generation of nice-enough young Brits with a taste for the modern rock can share that. All they did was follow a popular band and now, in the wake of Ian Watkins' bizarre, beastly admissions, it would seem that this same generation are having to ask themselves similar questions to the ones Nuremberg prosecutors did in 1946.

More

Really like this article. Especially the bit about evil, which is kinda relevant to what I was getting at last night:

What is the nature of evil? How much can any person ever be held culpable for their actions when their actions are so foul as to defy reason itself? Can we ever truly know what moves another heart? Perhaps, as Hannah Arendt concluded, the only thing you can say about evil is that it is banal. That the dark light you're looking for often just isn't there. Evil doesn't arrive scowling, chuffing a pipe and farting sulphur under its cape. Evil often asks you how your day was and massages your shoulders. Evil sometimes fails to put the cap back on the toothpaste. It took you to Ibiza for your birthday, didn't it? And hey – wasn't evil the one who cradled your head when you were sick that time? Didn't evil do that one brilliant gig at King Tut's?

Also:

Suddenly, lots of people with flesh tunnels are unexpectedly finding themselves wrestling at a quite philosophical level with the relationship between author and work, between art and morality, discovering paradoxes, uncomfortable compromises and shades of grey they've never had in their entirely black-n-white wardrobes.

That's why I think this case is so bloody fascinating. I never liked Lostprophets, but I have friends who do. They are all, whether they have 'flesh tunnels' or not, having a bit of a crisis over whether it's still acceptable to appreciate the artistic produce of a paedophile.
 
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You cannot examine the minutiae of fandom/music appreciation like so. Or at least if you do, then be prepared to throw out a lot more than your Lost Prophets records.

In particular, the music business is about as seedy as it gets. It could even be purpose built for paedophilia and rapists. Anyone who thinks the likes of Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter operated in some exclusive zone of their own needs to re-examine their own critical qualities.

In the end you make your own choices. If you know your favourite pop band has a rapist for a guitarist does that make that stunning intro on your favourite tune any less valid musically?

There are fifty shades of Watkins throughout the music industry.
 
You've missed the point and been a tit about it. Well done.

Obviously he derived some kind of pleasure from his activities. It's not like he was doing these things because he wanted to have a harrowing experience, is it?

Unless you think that these are perfectly normal fantasies (which I don't believe you do) then we can only gain from understanding the reasons behind his actions as best we can. Otherwise we're no better off and no further towards preventing such things occurring in the future.

Now, now, no need for the name calling or the qualification, he derived pleasure pure and simple, or impure and complicated if you prefer from his activities, not “some kind of pleasure”. I did understand your posts but I disagreed with them, I mean the Guards are hardly above in the Barracks saying “We cannot shtop these armed robberies until we understand the robbers motives” Are they? I mean I could say that the motive that such and such a person has for half arsed intellectual posturing is his need to appear clever, but it wouldn’t stop him spouting shite would it.
It appears that half of that part of the Internet, who knew who this cunt was, knew that he was a shite eating, dog fucking, teenie popping baby raper three years ago and that the Welsh Police were made aware of this multiple times and yet no halt was put to his gallop.


Just a quick aside on the nature of evil before I go and pick up me coal, evil is merely a word, it is not something immutable or separate from the person thus described, I say person since only a human being can be evil in that once they come to the age of reason they are cognisant of the implications of their actions. I have no doubt that Watkins is irredeemably evil, not content to defile a child to assuage his own priapism he wished to "whore" the infant out to others to do the same he also attempted or succeeded to feed Meth Amp and crack to the children, to God knows what end.

I sincerely hope he kills himself at the first opportunity and if he doesn't that the screws do it for him, not as a punishment but because I feel there is some rift in the universe while he lives.
 
Now, now, no need for the name calling or the qualification

You were the one who said I was 'simple' for not sharing your clear-cut views on the matter. You were being a tit.

As for the rest of your post, you're missing the point yet again. Though you're perfectly entitled to your opinions, even if they are a little, um, simple.
 
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Just a quick aside on the nature of evil before I go and pick up me coal, evil is merely a word, it is not something immutable or separate from the person thus described, I say person since only a human being can be evil in that once they come to the age of reason they are cognisant of the implications of their actions. I have no doubt that Watkins is irredeemably evil, not content to defile a child to assuage his own priapism he wished to "whore" the infant out to others to do the same he also attempted or succeeded to feed Meth Amp and crack to the children, to God knows what end.

Sums up how I feel about it all
 
So you've no interest in what motivated him?

Are you of the opinion that everybody walks around suppressing the urge to do 'evil', or is there something different about the likes of Watkins?

If so, are you not interested in identifying those differences? Or are you content just to wish harm upon Watkins and assert your own sense of moral superiority, like gannets?
 
So you've no interest in what motivated him?

Are you of the opinion that everybody walks around suppressing the urge to do 'evil', or is there something different about the likes of Watkins?

If so, are you not interested in identifying those differences? Or are you content just to wish harm upon Watkins and assert your own sense of moral superiority, like gannets?

Why does calling him evil forfeit any interest I have in the matter?

Of course there is something different about the likes of Watkins. Saying he's just as human as the next person is bollocks.

I don't wish harm on Watkins but I am apathetic towards his welfare.
 
Why does calling him evil forfeit any interest I have in the matter?

I'm only going off what you've previously posted:

I hope they don't diagnose him as a psychopath as that would be a bit of a cop out imo. Sometimes people are just evil.

Which seems to indicate that you believe any attempt to analyse the rationale behind Watkins' deeds is a wasted endeavour and somehow diminishes the horror of what occurred.

Saying he's just as human as the next person is bollocks.

Really?
 
Hmm what I said was a bit angry-mob wasn't it. I think my train of thought was that if he was diagnosed as a psychopath it would create a bit of leniency or somewhat of an excuse.
 
The Rational Paedophile by Dick M Young, theres a title for next years Booker.
Suggested Blurb
The exciting new novel concerns itself with the erotic fantasies and sex life of a sensitive and misunderstood child molester. The book consists of a series of flashbacks experienced by the narrator as he awaits sentence for baby rape in his prison cell, Young artfully examines and refutes the precepts of conventional morality and sets out rational arguments that truly justify the narrators actions, i.e they wanted it, they loved it, it made me feel good.

Jesus, I am off to the Pub.
 
Hmm what I said was a bit angry-mob wasn't it. I think my train of thought was that if he was diagnosed as a psychopath it would create a bit of leniency or somewhat of an excuse.

Well hes allready on anti psychotics apparently. If he's psychotic and a psycopath then jesus christ, theres no hope for him at all. There's no future for him. In some cases maybe there is an argument for the death penalty.
 
A further 19 hospitals are to have their links with disgraced television presenter Jimmy Savile investigated, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt said today.

In a written ministerial statement, Mr Hunt said he expected reports to be delivered by next June. The 19 hospitals will be investigated by their relevant health trusts but each investigation will be properly monitored.

They are in addition to an initial 13 inquiries into hospitals which are believed to have been visited by the disgraced television presenter. Savile is thought to have used his position to abuse vulnerable patients, many of them children.

The total number of hospitals now being investigated is 32.

The 19 additional hospitals under investigation are:

:: Barnet General Hospital

:: Booth Hall Children's Hospital

:: De La Pole Hospital

:: Dryburn Hospital

:: Hammersmith Hospital

:: Leavesden Secure Mental Hospital

:: Marsden Hospital

:: Maudsley Hospital

:: North Manchester General Hospital

:: Odstock Hospital

:: Pinderfields Hospital

:: Prestwich Psychiatric Hospital

:: Queen Victoria Hospital, East Grinstead

:: Royal Free Hospital, London

:: Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle

:: Seacroft Hospital, Leeds

:: St Mary's Hospital, Carshalton

:: Whitby Memorial Hospital

:: Wythenshawe Hospital

After details first emerged about cases of alleged abuse by Savile in hospitals, three major investigations were launched at Leeds General Infirmary, Stoke Mandeville Hospital and Broadmoor Hospital.

Further investigations were then announced at ten hospitals across the country. These latest inquiries come off the back of investigations by the Metropolitan Police into Savile.

Detectives investigating the cases of abuse gleaned further information that patients at the 19 hospitals could have been targeted by Savile and so further inquiries were ordered.

In his written statement to MPs, Mr Hunt said former barrister Kate Lampard, who was asked to oversee the Department of Health's investigations into Savile, will make sure the inquiries are properly carried out.

Mr Hunt said: "The Metropolitan Police Service has completed its document review and transferred various material concerning Jimmy Savile and the NHS to the Department of Health.

"The information has been passed on to the relevant hospital trust for further investigation as appropriate. Names of the hospitals are taken from the information received. These include hospitals that may have closed in which case the information has been passed on to the legacy organisation.

"Kate Lampard, who was asked to provide independent assurance of the NHS investigations on behalf of the Department of Health, will provide general assurance of the quality of all reports in her final assurance report.

"We expect the final reports of all the investigations to be completed by June 2014, with publication sooner if that is possible."

A Department of Health spokeswoman said: "It is essential that all the information is considered and investigations are thorough in order to learn the lessons about Jimmy Savile's pattern of offending."

Liz Dux, a lawyer specialising in abuse at legal firm Slater & Gordon which is representing 72 victims, said there were concerns that inquiries into other hospitals had only just started.

She said all of the victims represented by her firm had given detailed statements to Operation Yewtree - the police investigation into sexual abuse sparked by the Savile scandal.

Ms Dux said: "Whilst the victims of Savile would wish to ensure that the NHS inquiry is as comprehensive as possible, they have real concerns as to why the Department of Health has only just started its investigations into other hospitals now.

"The victims will be very upset about further delays into the NHS inquiry which will prolong their suffering."

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Well hes allready on anti psychotics apparently. If he's psychotic and a psycopath then jesus christ, theres no hope for him at all. There's no future for him. In some cases maybe there is an argument for the death penalty.

Psychosis isn't a crime, it's a condition. Don't confuse clinical psychosis with the popular (mis)understanding of the word 'psychotic'. Surely you can't use a medical condition (which Watkins may or may not be experiencing) as a makeweight in any justification for the death penalty?

In any case, antipsychotic medication is prescribed for a whole host of reasons, as I know you're aware.

Besides, what exactly constitutes a 'psychopath'? No such clinical diagnosis exists. There are number of diverse conditions which cause people to exhibit 'psychopathic' traits. These disorders are in some cases treatable.
 
Yeah, good points, you've clearly thought this through more than i have. I know what psychosis is, and interestimg to see what wiki says about what constitutes a 'psychopath': i think it is generally understood in these terms;

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/) (or sociopathy (/ˈsoʊsiəˌpæθi/)) is defined as either an aspect of personality or as a personality disorder, characterized by enduring dissocial or antisocial behavior, a diminished capacity for empathy or remorse, and poor behavioral controls or fearless dominance. There are various definitions which are only partly overlapping and sometimes appear contradictory.[1]

The 4th and 5th editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) have a diagnosis of Antisocial (Dissocial) Personality Disorder (ASPD), which states: "The essential feature of antisocial personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood. This pattern has also been referred to as psychopathy, sociopathy, or dyssocial personality disorder." Although no psychiatric or psychological organization has sanctioned a diagnosis titled "psychopathy", assessments of psychopathy characteristics are widely used in criminal justice settings in some nations, and may have important consequences for individuals.[2] The term is also used by the general public, in popular press, and in fictional portrayals.[3]

Although American psychiatrist Hervey Cleckley's work on psychopathy probably influenced the initial diagnostic criteria for antisocial personality reaction/disturbance in the DSM, as did American psychologist George E. Partridge's work on sociopathy, in 1980 the somewhat different diagnosis of ASPD was introduced. However, Canadian psychologist Robert D. Hare repopularised the construct of psychopathy in criminology with his Psychopathy Checklist.[1][2][4][5][6]

The 2nd bolded bit supports what you are saying, and i must admit im surprised at the lack of clarity about this issue. In laymans terms everyone knows what a psycopath is, but scientifically it's not neccesarily a valid construct.

So you are saying the guy needs treatment, and may be curable. That may be true. But despite him being ill hes guilty of heinious crimes whether they were comiited with diminished responsibilty or not.
 
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I always wonder about this need to call people mentally ill or psychopathic. I think they just enjoy it. I don't think it goes much deeper than that. Behaviour like this is part of the human condition.

It's like people who don't take drugs calling everyone who does an "addict".
 
I always wonder about this need to call people mentally ill or psychopathic. I think they just enjoy it. I don't think it goes much deeper than that. Behaviour like this is part of the human condition.

It's like people who don't take drugs calling everyone who does an "addict".

you could make the argument that anyone who enjoys doing such things just isnt sane, no one in their right frame of mind would do such things.
 
MDB, the Wikipedia page you quoted (and the section you highlighted) actually confirms the very ambiguities I'm talking about. As you say.

Have I ever denied that he's committed heinous crimes?
 
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