'Of course it's loaded you stupid s***': Final words of GHB user

[Jabberwocky]

'Of course it's loaded you stupid s***': Final words of GHB user after his drunk lesbian flatmate fatally shot him with a sawn-off shotgun during a drug-fuelled threesome

After a day of drinking and taking party drug GHB, a 23-year-old New Zealand woman fired a gun at one of her oldest friends, killing him.

Tiffani Jade Sutcliffe was in a bedroom with her flatmate Rhys Gordon Williamson, 40, and two others, with the intention of having group sex, when she pointed the gun at him and asked if it was loaded.

The shot fired almost immediately after, hitting the side of his chest and causing him to slump to the floor, Stuff reported.

Before giving in to the fatal shot, fired on May 31, he managed to utter his last words: 'Of course it's loaded, you stupid s***'.

On Tuesday, Sutcliffe pleaded guilty to a charge of manslaughter by reckless discharge of a firearm, which carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

Before the untimely death of the man she had known from the age of nine, Sutcliffe and her girlfriend had spent the day drinking bourbon and coke.

Williamson arrived home from work at their flat on Sesson Road in Hamiliton and joined them.

His friend Anthony Brett Clegg - who had recently been released from prison, also joined the group.

After taking the party drug GHB, Clegg, Sutcliffe and her girlfriend retired to the bedroom with the intent of having sex.

Earlier, Clegg had asked an unknown associate to bring over a sawn off shotgun and a box of shells.

Williamson walked into the room holding the gun, and pointed it at Sutcliffe in a way she described as 'playing around', before she took it off him and ended his life.

Sutcliffe has been taken into custody, and will be sentenced at the High Court in Hamilton on November 23.

Clegg has already been sentenced to two years prison for his part in the death.

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4987462/Woman-shoots-best-friend-day-drinking-drugs.html

 

[JessFR]

Sometimes I think basic firearm safety should be a required course in school for everyone. Even if we banned all guns for everyone in all cases, got rid of them entirely. They exist, and without training people just do not have sufficient common sense to not pose a huge and I mean fucking ENORMOUS hazard to themselves and everyone around them if they somehow wind up near one. People SUCK at risk evaluation. You'd think "this device can end the life of whatever it's pointed at with the click of a button" would make people go "maybe just to be sure I shouldn't point it at anyone and stay far away from that button" but NooooooOoo, way too sensible.

I live in Australia. Most people here think it's outright impossible for ordinary people to legally own a gun. It's not, but it's so freaken rare that people generally just assume it must be.

I'm also a heroin addict. I know a lot of... interesting people. And I really can't say that the strict "envy of the world" gun controls in this country don't strike me as a truly hilarious joke when they are so crazy accessible I could probably have one by tomorrow afternoon if I were so inclined.

So. Gun control or no gun control, I don't see how some basic accessible safety education could be a bad thing.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, pointing out how easy I could get one is not intended as a political statement about gun control here or elsewhere either for the affirmative or the negative nor do I have any desire to have a discussion about it. I bring it up only to point out that no matter what the law says, they exist. So long as people could plausibly wind up around one at some point in their life, they should probably know how to not blow someone's head off with them by mistake. I wish I didn't need to point this out, but some people will take absolutely any opportunity they find to spark a political debate about gun control and I don't wanna be the start of it.

 

[spacejunk]

This is really sad - it's a shame to see the dailymail exploiting something so horrible and trying to make it titillating or something, to sell papers.
Just because the guy was allegedly a GHB user, he's still a human being.

 

[poledriver]

I've never seen a gun besides on cops or maybe some security. I've lived my whole life here. Been around lots of dealers houses etc. I'm glad no one I hang out with has guns.

I hate hearing sad stories about guns and accidents, especially when they involve kids. A kid not far from where I live found a gun in the house and shot their sibling. I can't imagine how destroying that would be for a family.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I ponder what my last dying words will be?

 

[spacejunk]

I've never seen a gun besides on cops or maybe some security. I've lived my whole life here. Been around lots of dealers houses etc. I'm glad no one I hang out with has guns.

I hate hearing sad stories about guns and accidents, especially when they involve kids. A kid not far from where I live found a gun in the house and shot their sibling. I can't imagine how destroying that would be for a family.

This actually happened to a friend of my cousin's, in perth.
Was fooling around with a (loaded) gun, and accidentally killed his brother. Tragic
This was pre-1996, mind you

 

[JessFR]

I've never seen a gun besides on cops or maybe some security. I've lived my whole life here. Been around lots of dealers houses etc. I'm glad no one I hang out with has guns.

I hate hearing sad stories about guns and accidents, especially when they involve kids. A kid not far from where I live found a gun in the house and shot their sibling. I can't imagine how destroying that would be for a family.

The fact remains, guns exist. If an untrained person comes into control of a gun, it is crazy easy for someone to die. So until or unless we live in a world where almost nobody will ever, not even once, come into control of any kind of firearm from birth till death, I maintain that safety training should probably be made pretty accessible.

I live in Australia, wildly held by gun control advocates as having a system of gun control that is world class. I have had guns around me here lots of times, I have had guns pointed at me and I don't mean by the cops. And I know of at least two instances of people I know through mutual friends we have in common being shot because either they or someone around them were in control of a gun with no training in how to use them. One of them died.

So I think that no matter what kind of gun control you have, people should probably be trained in how to safely use guns.

Worst part is, gun safety training is all shit that should be common sense. But experience has shown me again and again that it's not. People just can't use guns safely without being trained in how to do so.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

Gun safety is pretty simple stuff and I agree with whoever said it should be taught in public school. Especially in a country where guns are so prevalent.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I used to do a lot of spearfishing and even then the first rule was don't point a loaded gun at anyone.

 

[JessFR]

No, the first rule is ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded.

The rules are written different ways by different groups for different contexts. A safety course aimed at hunters will have different rules than one for self defense. And the order varies a bit. But the one thing all the ones I've seen have in common is that the very first rule is always the same. All guns are always loaded.

The reason is if you wouldn't do it with a loaded gun you probably shouldn't do it with an unloaded one. The point is to get you out of the mindset of thinking in terms of loaded guns vs unloaded guns where your handling of them is concerned. The rules are to be followed at all times. You shouldn't ever EVER say or think "it's ok it's not loaded". Firearms should be treated with respect and caution at all times, no exceptions, not for any reason, not ever.

Gun safety is pretty simple stuff and I agree with whoever said it should be taught in public school. Especially in a country where guns are so prevalent.

I said it, though I was actually saying it should be the case in countries where they aren't considered prevalent. Yes the odds of someone encountering a gun in such countries is much lower. But they are also far far less likely to have any experience with how to handle them either. Spacejunk and I both live in Australia, even pre-96 guns weren't particularly common among the general population. Yet we both have first hand experience with people being killed by negligent use of firearms.

That's actually another thing they teach you when you receive firearm safety training. There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. Only a negligent discharge. Guns never "just go off". Someone pointed it at someone and pulled the trigger.

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

Always assume a gun is loaded. One of the things most drilled into my head during safety training was what a safety is. It's a mechanical device that may fail, never rely soley on a safety to prevent a firearm from discharging.

 

[JessFR]

Yep. And soon as you take control of a firearm, you personally check if it's loaded. Preferably by sight and touch.


Never point a firearm at something you can't risk being destroyed, never put your finger on the trigger till you're ready to shoot.
These are the most basic, fundamental rules. For something to go wrong you have to have broken both at the same time. And in my experience, most people will immediately break both of them within seconds if they've never had any training. I've been afraid of being shot by accident far more often than I've been afraid of being shot on purpose. I've seen a lot of people who think they know how to handle a gun when they quite obviously don't.

At least this is where having an American accent helps a lot. Australians don't find it too surprising or hard to believe that I might know what I'm talking about when it comes to guns. If I were a young female Australian I'd have no hope of anyone listening to me when I tell them they don't know what they're doing. It's not true of course. Lots of Americans have never used a gun. And lots more only have once or twice in their life. But I've found Australians stereotype the entire country the way Americans stereotype people who live in the south.

 

[Mafioso]

This is really sad - it's a shame to see the dailymail exploiting something so horrible and trying to make it titillating or something, to sell papers.
Just because the guy was allegedly a GHB user, he's still a human being.

Very much. It's sad how often media turns personal tragedies into ammunition for pushing forward an agenda.

 

[cj]

Sad I hope she doesn't get too much time. It was obviously an accident

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

Sad I hope she doesn't get too much time. It was obviously an accident

It's negligence, a person I knew had a similar thing happen to them while they were fucking with a gun and they got 10 years.

 

[JessFR]

It's negligence, a person I knew had a similar thing happen to them while they were fucking with a gun and they got 10 years.

You know, despite everything else I?ve said so far in this thread. And despite a very strong desire to punish idiots for doing retarded things. I just can?t bring myself to support putting her away for this.

What happened to your friend is irrelivent. Laws vary a lot from place to place. Even within the US in some states this kind of thing couldn?t be called negligent homicide. In others it could. And this happened in New Zealand so in the event they get charged, and the unlikelier event they get convicted, they won?t get much time for it.

The interesting question is SHOULD she be punished. I thought about this earlier when I wrote my post about gun safety. I?ll admit, a big part of me wants to see people punished for doing such obviously dangerous and stupid shit with guns. But, having thought it through. While I feel conflicted about it, I can?t agree.

Anyone who has had any training in firearm safety or has been in that world for any length of time has had it drilled into them over and over and over. There are no accidents. All gun accidents are negligent.

But the unfortunate truth is. Experience has shown me over and over again that while for anyone who has been taught that, it would indeed be negligence. For ordinary people with no experience at all. It is simply not the case that everyday rational people know from common sense how to safely handle a gun. They just don?t. They are an accident waiting to happen.

For it to be true negligence warranting punishment, it has to be that an ordinary person picked at random would be unlikely to make such a mistake.

If you gave an ordinary everyday person a loaded firearm, I would immediately fear for the lives of everyone around them. Because experience has shown me over and over that people just aren?t smart enough to be around them safely without being taught how to. Apparently it?s not something that comes naturally. No matter how obvious it seems in hindsight to anyone who has been taught how to safely use a gun.

So, with all that said. Unless she meant to shoot him. I just can?t support punishing her. However, I do think someone who HAS gotten any form of safety training and then goes on to shoot and kill someone without meaning too, they SHOULD be punished for it. Because in that instance they really should know better.

Man I really do hate to see such profound stupidity resulting in death go without consequence, I feel the same way you do. And I?d agree if I thought for one moment that this level of stupid was the exception rather than the norm.

But ask any firearm safety instructor and they?ll tell you. Until you?ve been taught how to handle them, almost everyone will start doing dangerous things when handed a firearm almost immediately. And if it could have happened to anyone, there shouldn?t be any punishment. In this case, it could happen to anyone with no experience, but not to people who have been taught to know better. So I don?t agree with punishment in the former group, I do in the latter.

 

[spacejunk]

I don't really have an opinion on the legal side of things, but from a purely human point of view, it always saddens me to see someone jailed for an accident that killed a loved one or friend by mistake.
Like when people get jailed for car accidents their friends (or boyfriend/girlfriend) have died in, for example.
I can't imagine any legal consequences being worse than knowing you've killed someone like that, and jailing them seems to only make it more likely that two lives are completely ruined.

But then again, i tend to think that custodial sentences are completely inappropriate for a lot of crimes.

 

[JessFR]

I don't really have an opinion on the legal side of things, but from a purely human point of view, it always saddens me to see someone jailed for an accident that killed a loved one or friend by mistake.
Like when people get jailed for car accidents their friends (or boyfriend/girlfriend) have died in, for example.
I can't imagine any legal consequences being worse than knowing you've killed someone like that, and jailing them seems to only make it more likely that two lives are completely ruined.

But then again, i tend to think that custodial sentences are completely inappropriate for a lot of crimes.

For the most part I agree. While part of me wants to see her punished for her stupidity. It’s not a part of me I’m very fond of.

You gotta understand though, anyone who’s had firearm safety training has generally been told over and over and over again “THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS”. It never “went off” you are entirely at fault if you fuck up.

It doesn’t leave a lot of tolerance for horseplay around such powerful weapons. On the other hand, it’s widely known that people just can’t safely handle firearms through common sense alone. There’s a reason the responsible thing to do when teaching someone to shoot for the first time is to only load one round. Cause you have no idea what stupid thing they might do after they fire that first shot and you don’t want them to still be able to shoot someone when they do.

 

[belligerent drunk]

The fact remains, guns exist. If an untrained person comes into control of a gun, it is crazy easy for someone to die. So until or unless we live in a world where almost nobody will ever, not even once, come into control of any kind of firearm from birth till death, I maintain that safety training should probably be made pretty accessible.

I live in Australia, wildly held by gun control advocates as having a system of gun control that is world class. I have had guns around me here lots of times, I have had guns pointed at me and I don't mean by the cops. And I know of at least two instances of people I know through mutual friends we have in common being shot because either they or someone around them were in control of a gun with no training in how to use them. One of them died.

So I think that no matter what kind of gun control you have, people should probably be trained in how to safely use guns.

Worst part is, gun safety training is all shit that should be common sense. But experience has shown me again and again that it's not. People just can't use guns safely without being trained in how to do so.

The idea behind it is almost exactly the same as the one behind drug use. Drugs and guns are going to exist within the society no matter the law, so it's better to be realistic and have proper regulations and policies than turn a blind eye or pretend like "outlawing" stuff is the golden solution. God, people can be so naive.

E: the question of punishment is tough in this one. It comes down to the argument between deterrence of others vs punishment of the individual. If you think about it, in such an accident where a person shoots their friend to death, jailing the perpetrator only adds to the tragedy. Now you've got 1 person dead and 1 rotting in jail with practically no future chance at a normal life. It ruins 2 lives. And it's not something that can be prevented by using the deterrence model. Before the accident, the person with the gun is much more likely to weigh the pros and cons of toying with a potentially loaded gun based on whether they want to lose their (close) friend than the reality of going to jail and ruining their own life over it. At least that's how I see it.

So overall, I think harsh punishment for this form of negligent homicide does more bad than good. Not that I'm against a year or two in prison for the individual - what I'm against is the effect this has on the individual's future life. It's really not just about this particular crime, but the fact that (for example in the US) being labeled a felon alters one's options in life such as employment, voting etc so much. IMO you do the crime, you do the time, and that should be the end of it.

 

[zephyr]

This girl and the others got themselves into that position by a string of numerous bad decisions.

They knew they were drinking and on G. They knew that guns are unsafe. They left a gun not picked up in a cabinet with live rounds too.

So this girl messed up and didn't intend to kill but was in the position that she did kill him.

So really it's like drink driving and killing a pedestrian. Someone died because you made these stupid decisions so to learn from this and to show a life is worth more than an "oops" she will just have to go to jail for a while,. Just like the guy who accidentally ran over the kid who stole his motorbike in the chase.