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O.K smarties, explain this to drunks...

B

BabyGotBac

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I have only posted on this site one other time. My question was concerning Baclofen and whether or not this drug would make sense for boozer's to use in an attempt to get sober.

I'm getting ripped a new one on "another site" debating these people. They are convinced they have found some sort of "magic bullet." You folks are much smarter than the angry, drunken a-holes on this other site. Can you elaborate on long-term effects, etc.?

If you're feeling bored, please give me your thoughts and I will be honest, I just might copy and paste your answers (without any name attached.)
 
KAYLA2010 said:
How long and how much were you drinking?....
Click to expand...

For many years. And I drank an eff-load as most of us Alkie's do.

I've been sober for nearly two years. I guess what i'm asking for, explain the "downside", if you believe there is one, to using a drug like Baclofen in order to solve a booze problem.

I haven't been able to adequately explain why this will/or maybe some think will not be the magic cure.

I do not have the scientific background to explain to people the potential dangers of a drug like baclofen.

I'm hoping (and know) you guy's do.
 
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Well baclofen has actually worked really well for the one alcoholic person I know that tried it...although a sample size of one hardly proves anything and they have only been on it for 6 months so it may yet lose effectiveness with time (I understand this is the main problem with baclofen)

I think it mainly depends on why and how you take it...if you are happy to take the minimum effective dose of baclofen to merely stave off cravings and reduce physical withdrawal symptoms, then it does seem to work quite well, in the short to medium term at least.

But if you want to take massive doses to try get wasted as a substitute for alcohol, then yeah sure tolerance escalates rapidly, it will produce a range of negative side effects (sedation, memory impairment, motor incoordination etc), and will probably stop working fairly soon and leave you with a nasty withdrawal syndrome from the baclofen as well when you give up and stop taking it.

All depends on what you are trying to get out of it, drugs are merely tools and you shouldn't blame the tool just because you fail to use it correctly!
 
Baclofen doesn't target the same receptor.

In the brain different neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, GABA, glutamate, etc.) all act on receptors. There are two major types of receptors (with HUGE and very different sub-families), ionotropic and metabotropic. Ionotropic allow electrical current to flow into or out of the cell while metabotropic causes many different signaling cascades in the cell to transduce messages of any type.

There are two types of GABA receptors in the brain. GABA-A and GABA-B. The endogenous ligand is GABA. GABA-A is ionotropic and GABA-B is metabatropic.

Ethanol causes the signaling of the endogenous ligand GABA to send a more stronger message to the GABA-A receptor. Baclofen (EDIT: inhibits--> mimic) mimics the action of GABA acting on the GABA-B receptor.

EDIT:doesn't make as much since anymore after edit.
So, considering that baclofen and ethanol both modulate GABA signaling and that they have opposite actions (increase or decrease signaling) I see how the conclusion could be made that they might cancel each other out. However, they do target different receptors- so this cannot be true.

Baclofen could cause other effects that cause someone who was drunk to "sober up." But, I believe it would be because it caused further changes in brain signaling that happen to have an end result perceived as "sober" rather than actually counteracting the ethanol effect.
 
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^^^

GABAb receptors are also inhibitory, just by a different mechanism to GABAa. Baclofen is a GABAb agonist so it does not inhibit the action of GABA at GABAb, it mimics it.
 
bcn17 said:
In the brain different neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, GABA, glutamate, etc.) all act on receptors. There are two major types of receptors (with HUGE and very different sub-families), ionotropic and metabotropic. Ionotropic allow electrical current to flow into or out of the cell while metabotropic causes many different signaling cascades in the cell to transduce messages of any type.

There are two types of GABA receptors in the brain. GABA-A and GABA-B. The endogenous ligand is GABA. GABA-A is ionotropic and GABA-B is metabatropic.

Ethanol causes the signaling of the endogenous ligand GABA to send a more stronger message to the GABA-A receptor. Baclofen inhibits the action of GABA acting on the GABA-B receptor.

So, considering that baclofen and ethanol both modulate GABA signaling and that they have opposite actions (increase or decrease signaling) I see how the conclusion could be made that they might cancel each other out. However, they do target different receptors- so this cannot be true.

Baclofen could cause other effects that cause someone who was drunk to "sober up." But, I believe it would be because it caused further changes in brain signaling that happen to have an end result perceived as "sober" rather than actually counteracting the ethanol effect.
Click to expand...

You people have just BLOWN away a bunch of average people! THANK YOU, THANK YOU! You're the best!
 
What smarties say about baclofen....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Takie it for what it's worth folks...

Well baclofen has actually worked really well for the one alcoholic person I know that tried it...although a sample size of one hardly proves anything and they have only been on it for 6 months so it may yet lose effectiveness with time (I understand this is the main problem with baclofen)

I think it mainly depends on why and how you take it...if you are happy to take the minimum effective dose of baclofen to merely stave off cravings and reduce physical withdrawal symptoms, then it does seem to work quite well, in the short to medium term at least.

But if you want to take massive doses to try get wasted as a substitute for alcohol, then yeah sure tolerance escalates rapidly, it will produce a range of negative side effects (sedation, memory impairment, motor incoordination etc), and will probably stop working fairly soon and leave you with a nasty withdrawal syndrome from the baclofen as well when you give up and stop taking it.

All depends on what you are trying to get out of it, drugs are merely tools and you shouldn't blame the tool just because you fail to use it correctly!

Another post...

Baclofen doesn't target the same receptor.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the brain different neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, GABA, glutamate, etc.) all act on receptors. There are two major types of receptors (with HUGE and very different sub-families), ionotropic and metabotropic. Ionotropic allow electrical current to flow into or out of the cell while metabotropic causes many different signaling cascades in the cell to transduce messages of any type.

There are two types of GABA receptors in the brain. GABA-A and GABA-B. The endogenous ligand is GABA. GABA-A is ionotropic and GABA-B is metabatropic.

Ethanol causes the signaling of the endogenous ligand GABA to send a more stronger message to the GABA-A receptor. Baclofen inhibits the action of GABA acting on the GABA-B receptor.

So, considering that baclofen and ethanol both modulate GABA signaling and that they have opposite actions (increase or decrease signaling) I see how the conclusion could be made that they might cancel each other out. However, they do target different receptors- so this cannot be true.

Baclofen could cause other effects that cause someone who was drunk to "sober up." But, I believe it would be because it caused further changes in brain signaling that happen to have an end result perceived as "sober" rather than actually counteracting the ethanol effect.

Umm, here are those "really smart people" I told you were out there. I also told you I'd find them . I did.

Thank you, thank you , and thank you!
 
mad_scientist said:
^^^

GABAb receptors are also inhibitory, just by a different mechanism to GABAa. Baclofen is a GABAb agonist so it does not inhibit the action of GABA at GABAb, it mimics it.
Click to expand...


Good point, I made a mistake and said baclofen was an agonist instead of an antagonist!

Furthermore, it is interesting that mad scientist points out that both types of receptors are inhibitory in nature- which they are. The difference is that GABA-A receptors let chlorine ions in - hyperpolarizing- or "inhibiting" the cell. GABA-B receptors start a signaling cascade that cause K+ channels to open and hyperpolarize or "inhibit" the cell by letting K+ ions out.

So considering they have the same end result on the cell they could definitely have similar effects. Although nothing in the brain is that simple. Different populations of neurons will have different proportions of the two receptor types, and each receptor type will have significant differences anyway.
 
Well, I think I was banned for good from the site that I referred you too. I guess they do not want to be educated by people who might (and do) actually know what they are talking about.

I thank all of you for your replies, some which ironically enough, agreed with the folks posting on "My Way Out."

I guess I crossed the line when I laughed at my primary antagonist who kept calling me a "narcissist" despite that fact he continued to post photos of himself in various stages of undress.

I got the boot when I pointed out that, even being a drunk, I woke up to men with far better bodies and, more than likely, much bigger trust funds! (Aren't we women sweet? (...even though I was right and it was true!)

I was really pissed that he copied and pasted all the posts I started from this site. Didn't think that would happen folks. Really crappy, and I am sorry for that.

I hope this will not stop you from venturing out to other sites filled with under/uneducated morons who spout the latest garbage they read somewhere. I'm being honest. We NEED you guys/gals. Most doc's don't even understand how drugs do or do not work.

And hell, I'm just as guilty. Unless you have a scientific background, it's very hard to know what is the truth. Especially when you are afflicted with a problem/nightmare/killer like addiction.
 
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I'm an infrequent visitor to this site. I was drawn here by the variety of people, intellects and experience of many posters. I was also open with the fact that I've struggled with alcoholism for many years and thought (rightfully so) some of you highly educated people could and would provide some ideas and answers we just don't hear about in mainstream media or current medical treatment.

My posts on this board were copied and pasted onto another site without my knowledge or permission. Since so many on this other board are taking so much joy in trashing me, perhaps some of you might like to explain why using baclofen might not be the magic bullet for curing/reducing or stopping boozing?

There are some really great, nice folks on this other site, but also, as you know from someone who'd found her post's cut and pasted without her knowledge, some real a-holes too.

So, once again, here is my question. Some of you have already done a brilliant job anwering it, but, "if you were a drunk, would you use baclofen as a "cure?"

Since my husand does a lot of investing in "futures" I know this drug is being pushed. We will all be hearing about it in the future. Is it for real or not, in you opinions? And don't misusnderstand, I don't care about the money. As a former drunk who has suffered greatly, I truly care about the answer.
 
The only thing about the baclofen that bothers me are the side effects...especially after long term alcoholism....I could not figure out how the GABA-b receptor agonist like baclofen can potentially stop cravings for alcohol when studies have shown alcohol may involve an increase in dopamine and GABA-a.(the euphoria from dopamine and the sedative effects of GABA-a combined are what most alcoholics crave(well at least after my own research of neurotransmitters.....and way to many other neurotransmitters)......but i do see how the effects of a selective GABA receptors like baclofen can help by mimicking the side effects of the alcohol on the GABA-a receptor.....but probably not for long and the side effects are dangerous.....and long term side effects...If i were an alcoholic...I am not sure what I would choose....because both can cause life threatening side effects...and withdraw....The more I think about it it is driving me crazy to know how a drug like baclofen (acting on GABA-b) and the side effects and withdraw is almost exactly like Benzo's (acting on GABA-a)..what is even the point of switching.....You would really have to outweigh all the risks and benefits.....which in this case I really can't tell you because both alcohol and baclofen cause impaired thinking.......sedative effects....severe withdraw............
 
BabyGotBac said:
"if you were a drunk, would you use baclofen as a "cure?"
Click to expand...

No...It would not be a cure...Alcohol acts on way to many neurotransmitters, organs to many things to name are involved....There is no way a GABA-b agonist like baclofen could stop all the the transmitting involved with being drunk.
 
Pulling a Lo0p and posting these answers. (At least, I asked for premission.)

Me (the evil one's original post...)

Well, I think I was banned for good from the site that I referred you too. I guess they do not want to be educated by people who might (and do) actually know what they are talking about.

I thank all of you for your replies, some which ironically enough, agreed with the folks posting on "My Way Out."

I guess I crossed the line when I laughed at my primary antagonist who kept calling me a "narcissist" despite that fact he continued to post photos of himself in various stages of undress.

I got the boot when I pointed out that, even being a drunk, I woke up to men with far better bodies and, more than likely, much bigger trust funds! (Aren't we women sweet? (...even though I was right and it was true!)

I was really pissed that he copied and pasted all the posts I started from this site. Didn't think that would happen folks. Really crappy, and I am sorry for that.

I hope this will not stop you from venturing out to other sites filled with under/uneducated morons who spout the latest garbage they read somewhere. I'm being honest. We NEED you guys/gals. Most doc's don't even understand how drugs do or do not work.

And hell, I'm just as guilty. Unless you have a scientific background, it's very hard to know what is the truth. Especially when you are afflicted with a problem/nightmare/killer like addiction.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by BabyGotBac; Yesterday at 23:34..


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Yesterday, 16:01 #12
BabyGotBac
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Today, 05:20 #13
BabyGotBac
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I'm an infrequent visitor to this site. I was drawn here by the variety of people, intellects and experience of many posters. I was also open with the fact that I've struggled with alcoholism for many years and thought (rightfully so) some of you highly educated people could and would provide some ideas and answers we just don't hear about in mainstream media or current medical treatment.

My posts on this board were copied and pasted onto another site without my knowledge or permission. Since so many on this other board are taking so much joy in trashing me, perhaps some of you might like to explain why using baclofen might not be the magic bullet for curing/reducing or stopping boozing?

There are some really great, nice folks on this other site, but also, as you know from someone who'd found her post's cut and pasted without her knowledge, some real a-holes too.

So, once again, here is my question. Some of you have already done a brilliant job anwering it, but, "if you were a drunk, would you use baclofen as a "cure?"

Since my husand does a lot of investing in "futures" I know this drug is being pushed. We will all be hearing about it in the future. Is it for real or not, in your opinions? And don't misusnderstand, I don't care about the money. As a former drunk who has suffered greatly, I truly care about the answer.


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Today, 05:40 #14
KAYLA2010
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The only thing about the baclofen that bothers me are the side effects...especially after long term alcoholism....I could not figure out how the GABA-b receptor agonist like baclofen can potentially stop cravings for alcohol when studies have shown alcohol may involve an increase in dopamine and GABA-a.(the euphoria from dopamine and the sedative effects of GABA-a combined are what most alcoholics crave(well at least after my own research of neurotransmitters.....and way to many other neurotransmitters)......but i do see how the effects of a selective GABA receptors like baclofen can help by mimicking the side effects of the alcohol on the GABA-a receptor.....but probably not for long and the side effects are dangerous.....and long term side effects...If i were an alcoholic...I am not sure what I would choose....because both can cause life threatening side effects...and withdraw....The more I think about it it is driving me crazy to know how a drug like baclofen (acting on GABA-b) and the side effects and withdraw is almost exactly like Benzo's (acting on GABA-a)..what is even the point of switching.....You would really have to outweigh all the risks and benefits.....which in this case I really can't tell you because both alcohol and baclofen cause impaired thinking.......sedative effects....severe withdraw............


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Today, 05:45 #15
KAYLA2010
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Originally Posted by BabyGotBac
"if you were a drunk, would you use baclofen as a "cure?"

No...It would not be a cure...Alcohol acts on way to many neurotransmitters, organs to many things to name are involved....There is no way a GABA-b agonist like baclofen could stop all the the transmitting involved with being drunk.
 
I don't mind....But my thoughts might not be perfect.... These are just my own thoughts...from my own research and understanding........a whole lot of research lol...i read way to much...........and i still seem to do really stupid things.....effecting my neuro's and autonomic system......hmm I wonder what neuro deficit...lol
 
I had a thought? ...why don't you guy's' go over to the My Way Out forums?

Honestly, I don't mean this malisciouslly (is that spelled correctly?) Hmmm, still doesn't look right to me. But anywhoo.

I'm sick of arguing with some of these people and you could do such a better job than I anyhow.

Think of all the people you could help. They need some brain power over there and certain someone's need a major bitch-slapping (which I think some of you could do in the most wonderful way! )

Who knows? It could be fun!
 
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KAYLA2010 said:
I don't mind....But my thoughts might not be perfect.... These are just my own thoughts...from my own research and understanding........a whole lot of research lol...i read way to much...........and i still seem to do really stupid things.....effecting my neuro's and autonomic system......hmm I wonder what neuro deficit...lol
Click to expand...

Selling yourself way too short my dear! Every smart person reads too much and we ALL do stupid things.

I think it's called "being human."
 
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