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Trigger Warning Night of LSD tripping went horribly wrong

Honestly @unodelacosa I am not equating drug induced blackout with sleep walking, but I am suggesting that a blackout state is an nREM state no matter how it is achieved, including natural sleep, anaesthetic, or too much psychedelic.
And although it is rare for all people, sleepwalking is an nREM event. I can include sleep driving, sleep sex, and sleep violence. No memory is made during sleep walking.
And what I learned from those links I provided is that children are more prone to it, it may run in families, and unusual strength is possible with enough violence that it has been studied as a thing.

In the OP of this thread, a member described a puzzling behavior while her husband was using too much LSD - had a blackout and then exhibited behavior that has all the characteristics of Violent Sleep Walking.
 
(LSD)'s s a synthetic chemical, not tried and tested by nature in a symbiotic relationship over thousands of years.
LSD is "semi-synthetic" and its original and primary precursor, ergotamine tartrate, comes from a natural source: ergot, the psychoactive fungus that grows on rye. The idea for many psychedelic drugs comes from nature – the blue print, if you will, was already written in nature's chemistry all around us; we just had to look. The aromatic essential oils are a perfect example of this. MDMA, MDA, MDE, et al. come from natural Safrole in Sassafras oil found in S. albidum roots (among other plant sources). It's what gives root beer its distinct smell and taste. And DMMDA-2 comes from Indian Dill Seed OIl's Dill Apiole. Nutmeg contains, Myristicin (precursor to MMDA), Elemicin (precursor to Mescaline), and other essential oils like this. Dill and Parsley both have interesting allylbenzenes, too, like Asarone (2C-x pre), Apiole (DMMDA pre), and Anethole (PMA/PMMA pre).

Meanwhile psilocybin mushrooms are genetically modified to hell by human selection to the point that their small caps and large bodies wouldn't be adequate for competitive reproduction in the wild. But anyway, all of this is a moot point because humans are the product of nature. We're as natural as anything else on this planet, so why do people pretend that every so-called "man-made drug" is automatically some evil, bad thing because it wasn't made by Mother Nature? Sure we should protect the ecosystem, but that's precisely bc we're a part of it. And besides, nature also makes shit like Death Angel mushrooms, Black Mamba venom, White Oleander, Datura, and countless carcinogens. Let's not forget" medicine is a noble path.

When at the doctor, do you allow anesthesia? Ever use antibiotics? Those are synthetic chems "not tried and tested by nature in a symbiotic relationship over thousands of years." This notion seems cool, but it's a platitude + hypocritical.

No offense. For realsies, lol. It is a commonly held old chestnut, and I get it; I really do. Seems so noble, planet-loving, anti-consumerist, righteous, indigenous, skeptical of "synthetic" anything (not a merit), and in-tune with Gaya & so on & forth. But it's not – plant-made drugs have been genetically modified, and many psychoactive drugs are minimally changed by organic chemistry to bear a nitrogen and cross the blood brain barrier. They're tools we developed from natural sources to allow us to better explore our nature brains. It's taken all of human history to get to this point, and it's perfectly natural for us to explore and seek precisely this knowledge in this exact manner. No government should criminalize this.

It would be nice if we had legal recreational drugs with FDA oversight and a wealth more knowledge on psychedelics drugs than we do now, but it is what it is. And anyway, of the psychedelics, LSD is one of the more extensively tested, discussed, studied, and understood. Research into it and other lysergamides has helped people like Dr. David Nichols and his group when he was at Purdue developing Parkinson's treatments.

It might be perfectly safe in the final analysis,
LSD is renowned for having a robust safety profile in its category with a huge difference between active dose and its LD₅₀. How much more safety data were you looking for, and what's a drug you consider safer than LSD and why? Pls don't just speculate. Let's hear some logic.

but I'm not prepared to be the sacrificial lamb for it.
What are you talking about? You don't have to be the "sacrificial lamb" – that's awfully dramatic – that's already been handled. Let's not forget LSD was developed legally in the well respected Sandoz Laboratories, Switzerland, by Dr. Albert Hofmann. It went through testing; of course this was 80 yrs ago, but still.

And when it comes to these things, one should always defer to natures work first. Nature really does know best.
That's what organic chemistry does, and especially biochemistry – it pays close attention to nature's work. And Nature knows best? Man the "natural world" will fucking ruthlessly and carelessly tear you apart and devour you, or drown you, or freeze you, cook you alive, zap you with lightening, swallow you in an earth quake, tsunami, tornado, or squish you like a bug in a hurricane, avalanche, incinerate you in a volcanic eruption, horse kick you in the face, maul you with any number of beasts from tigers to gators, or simply poison you to an agonizing death because your ape ass was starving and accidentally ate the wrong shrooms or berries. Poison oak, poison sumac, deadly bee stings, black widow spiders, brown recluse ones, too, and all the fucking venomous snakes, scorpions, even duck-billed mahfuckin' platypuses have a venomous spiked barb in one of their hind legs, sneaky fat little fucks 😂 Nature knows best… until you develop cancer, Parkinson's, or a slew of various maladies. Staying alive in the long-term can be a real challenge with vicious antagonists to end your life if you're not really cautious, on the look-out, and a bit lucky. Life is vexing. Let's not suck Mother Nature's dick too hard. I respect her, but all she gets is a handjob outta me, at best. I mean, look at a guy like Steve Irwin went out. Fuck that. No sting rays for me, thanks.
 
LSD is renowned for having a robust safety profile in its category with a huge difference between active dose and its LD₅₀. How much more safety data were you looking for, and what's a drug you consider safer than LSD and why? Pls don't just speculate. Let's hear some logic.
I think this quote encapsulates your sentiments and also what I see as your bias here. You picked up on the very bio-mechanistic LD50, as if that is even really relevant to the overall discussion about the psychological/psychic safety profile.. the psychoactive component is stepping out of the realm of science and its quantitative analysis, and it bears no connection to the point that as a species we have not evolved in tandem with LSD unlike the other psychoactive compounds.

All the other compounds nature has tried and tested over thousands upon thousands of years, both in us and other species that have consumed them. That is natures seal of approval, she has worked out the kinks and balanced out the affects. There is also the qualitative component that is bound by thousands of years of collective human appreciation that LSD does not have. Much like religious talismans, hymns, or whatever, carry a certain psychic weight born out of repeated collective impressions upon it. And again, that has been a symbiotic dance worked out over thousands of years between the mushroom for instance and us, whereas LSD simply does not have that.

Nature does know best. The spiel about the slaughter house aspect of nature has nothing to do with it, that is beautiful in its own way, and part of the mechanism. It didn't add any weight to your argument and just exposes your bias towards LSD.
 
In the OP of this thread, a member described a puzzling behavior while her husband was using too much LSD - had a blackout and then exhibited behavior that has all the characteristics of Violent Sleep Walking.
For chrissakes, man, correlation doesn't imply causation. Also, the term, "blackout", is colloquial and imprecise.

At the heart of what you're missing is this: amnesia has many causes. Not all states involving amnesia are caused by the same biological mechanisms / physiological underpinnings, if you will. Either this or you're using a uniquely loose definition of the word, "sleepwalking".

Additionally, nREM sleep states are not the same thing as other forms of amnesia whether drug induced or not. It's reductive to say all amnesia is sleepwalking just because sleepwalking involves amnesia.

All the other compounds nature has tried and tested over thousands upon thousands of years,
You keep avoiding my questions, so should I infer then that you have no answers or explanations? Don't you take other forms of medicine that haven't "evolved with us in tandem over blah³ years" and other mystical superstitions? Anesthesia, antibiotics, shit like that? How do you resolve that little contradiction?

If you can't see why and how LSD is special, and you can't figured out why it's inspired people, movements, inventions, visions… important shit like: the psychedelic revolution and the cultural changes it brought about, the double-helically coiled nature of DNA – a vision of one of its discoverers (Francis Crick), the work of countless musicians and artists over the decades since the 60s who've made all that great music and films that affected and enhanced so many people's lives… if you don't get that, I feel sorry for you. I would say, maybe try reading Dr. Albert Hoffman's book about his famous discovery, or perhaps read the forwards in PiHKAL and TiHKAL, but you would have to approach the subject with a more open mind, and you seem very convinced of your own opinion and dead certain that you're right no matter what. You fail to realize how significant the discovery of LSD was, and you fail to see the elements in the story that align with the mystical notions you're so enamored with… that's the real shame of it, that you're missing important details in that story and that maybe, just maybe you've overhyped nature and missed out on an important gem doing so. Hofmann was given to mystical experiences, even had one as a child purportedly, you know…

Instead, the well intentioned-but-misguided belief that all man-made things are bad and all natural things are good continues harming society, and in the U.S., LSD is still a schedule I drug with Draconian mandatory minimum sentences and an unjust system for determining drug weight. But keep bashing drugs anyway, because "nature knows best" and people cannot seem to think for themselves. Oh well. I tried.
 
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arguing for the sake of coming out on top or with the last word, @unodelacosa , is not that important. I am not using correlation, I am using causation when it comes to my interpretation of gross brain states (characterized by EEG) and effects. I agree that the terms blackout and sleep walking have a colloquial ring to it, but they have known ranges of behaviors that have the EEG signatures which are based upon an actual brain process (cortico-thalamic feedback) critical to memory formation - when alpha or theta are missing no memory formation occurs, however for sleep walking the reticular formation does not inhibit physical movement while it (the RF) does do so in other sleep-like states. Because of this, perceptive reflexes occur to sensory input, but no continuous memory formation is made, a person can drive a car, but cannot learn or remember what happened, for which sustained cortico-thalamic feedback is necessary.

basically it's like this with regard to memory formation, you need alpha or theta waveform which indicates cortico-thalamic feedback.
n-REM, or deep sleep, or blackout, or effective anaesthesia, all produce this state with no theta or alpha waveform (i.e. no cortico-thalamic feedback).
also
n-REM, or deep sleep, or blackout, or effective anaesthesia, all usually have the reticular formation in a state that blocks signals to and from the body getting into the brain through the thalamus.
when the reticular formation malfunctions, then n-REM, or deep sleep, or blackout, or effective anaesthesia can be accompanied by reflex movements which, when more than a single kick or twitch becomes sleep walking, sleep driving, sleep sex, and sleep violence. During this time there is no consciousness or memory formation - just robotic reflexes and apparently unusual strength as well.
 
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arguing for the sake of coming out on top or with the last word
I don't give a rat's ass about that. I'm just trying to do you a favor by pointing out that you're using poor logic. I also consulted with a good friend of mine who is a neurosurgeon and neuroscientist at Brigham & Women's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, recognized internationally for his contributions to epilepsy surgery and movement disorder surgery. He agrees your argument is overly reductive and misses some crucial details. Take the feedback or let if fly. Matters not to me; as always, I'm just trying to help. I don't give a fuck about winning so-called arguments or whatever vainglorious effort you think it is I'm doing… 🙄
 
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Lsd is great if it is made right. And sometime a shroom might grow unfavorable.

Or more potent or less.

I just think it is the person inside that has to control it. Or just except.

If someone is at risk of a bad reaction just don't do it.

~~~~~~

And don't start yelling at me bc I don't really care for yelling. I was just interested too. (those even concerned)

👅

But if the sid recipe is made well. Consistent. It might not be poisonous as a mushroom.

But sometimes the sickness isn't that bad ... from the drug ... and called a mushroom. If that is

actually what it is from. Nothing wrong with good acid and as long as it's

not bad acid. Is this what can be said also ? I kind of feel like mushrooms and L are two different things .... as in no comparisons. Like above and beyond the apples and oranges examp. lol. But they are different. My guess at this point is that

he probably had too much. ( the original post )

Trip reports are mostly benign. Wow I just hope that they are alright and can recover from this and I hope the best for them to be able to overcome the trauma. I am sure they can..

I feel bad for the poster ... but I am sure the poster felt worse. A bit. I am sure everything turned out fine as it was even said in another post. thnx
 
Absolutely fascinating ideas in the thread. It seemed to cover a lot of areas. I keep going back and forth from fugue state, sleepwalking, blackout and demon possession. Yeah one of those.
 
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