NHS to give addicts free drugs

fastandbulbous said:
Do you have any idea how much more it costs to keep someone in prison than treat them for what is in reality a medical, not criminal problem or do you belive that drug dependance is not a medical/psychiatric problem - if it wasn't then drug dependant people wouldn't have so many psychological problems in common that are rarely seen in the general population
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do you have any idea period ? i just iced that argument once and for all in my last post. we have to protect our people that ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING. the reason that drug users have psychological/psychiatric problems is, for the most part, because of the drugs...:\
 
malevolent society said:
what ? are you on drugs ?

no, drug dependency/alcoholism is NOT a disease. its a choice. as for victimless crimes... im not even going to discuss that.ive already stated TWICE now that im all for a drug trial, but its not going to happen. now if you can come up with an alterntive suggestion, go ahead. and since when is mental ilness a choice ? ive got to wonder if you have been taking too many drugs. best get off them before you get sent to jail. so tell me where is the hypocricy ?
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You should try losing the argument fallacies - it doesn't add any weight to your arguments, it makes people pay even less heed to them.

Anyway, let's look at the cost aspect in more detail. You're saying all addicts should be locked up in prison as opposed to being offered free heroin to stop them offending combined with a proper support and treatment program.

Lets see... there's approaching 300,000 heroin addicts in the UK, and a load more crack addicts on top of that. The prison capacity of the UK is 80,000. The prison population as of this week is around 80,150 (those extra 150 are having to be kept in police cells). If your "plan" was to be implemented we would have to increase the capacity of the prison system by a factor of 5 at least.

That is hundreds of extra jails would need to be built, thousands of extra prison guards recruited. Billions and billions and billions of pounds. It falls at the first hurdle, it's simply not possible because there isn't that money available and there never will be. But even if it was, why the hell would we squander it on a concept that won't work - you still haven't responded to this point that I made:

Dude, even if it did work in making an addict go clean for a year under the threat of keeping them in jail forever, most would start again soon after they were out, because you haven't tackled the root causes of their addiction. Addicts need proper rehabiltation and medical treatment to bring about them being clean, not locking up and forcing them.
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fastandbulbous said:
What happened to the posts by malevolent society? Did he delete them (in wehich case why is there no 'deleted post' markers) or did he eventually disappear up his own arguement?
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Admin decision...
 
They will receive two injections a day of diamorphine, pharmaceutical heroin, seven days a week and be given methadone to take home in the evenings.
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what is the logic behind this? won't taking methadone every night block the effects of the heroin they are taking the next day?

also, how will they test for "street" heroin versus the heroin administered by the clinic? just levels of heroin/its metabolites in the blood? can't that measurement vary widely between people?
 
nuke
Bluelighter.. you said.."Overall, I don't think a junkie would need more than $700 worth of heroin and syringes a year."

that would last me a few days
 
chriss020987 said:
nuke
Bluelighter.. you said.."Overall, I don't think a junkie would need more than $700 worth of heroin and syringes a year."

that would last me a few days
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I think you will find he was implying that the companies could produce and market the 'diamorphine' aka herion at a more realistic price.. ie. not at street value!
 
If you check the prices in the BNF for pharmacists, diamorphine is one of the cheapest drugs going. One months script of certain antibiotics or anti-cancer drugs costs more that it would to pay for the heaviest of smack habits over the course of a year
 
Prescription heroin call

Evening Times
4 December 2006

SCOTLAND'S leading drugs expert has called for heroin to be made available on prescription.

Professor Neil McKeganey, director of the centre of drug misuse at Glasgow University, has called on the Scottish Executive to carry out a pilot project where heroin is prescribed to addicts instead of methadone.

The researcher, who previously said prescribing heroin would encourage addiction, says new ideas must be considered, or the drugs problem that could "overwhelm" Scotland within 15-years.

Speaking ahead of tomorrow's drugs debate at Scottish Drugs Forum's annual meeting, he said: "I don't think it's sensible to rule it out in principle.

"It may be of benefit for some addicts, but it would have to have very tightly controlled."

The U-turn was welcomed by Green MSP Patrick Harvie and Solidarity MSP Rosemary Byrne.

Mr Harvie said: "We either need to put all of our ideas on the table and sit down and say the current approach is failing and some radical unpopular measures might be necessary, or we could say this problem will carry on festering."

A spokesman for the Scottish Executive said there were no plans to begin prescribing heroin. He said: "This is not something that can be undertaken lightly."

Link
 
i honestly do not know whether i agree with sponsoring addicts. so everyone who is disciplined enough to keep their use reasonable is gonan have to pay and those who go out of conrol get it all paid for? who's paying? everyone else who's a taxpayer, fleeced by the sytem to feed the users' indulgence or self-created and potentially temporary (unless discipline is lost entirely) necessity.

if people wanna get wasted they should pay for it - if they want sponsored prescriptions to feed their desires then that's close to saying I wanna live at others' expense. there has to be another way, i don't think society encouraging addiction/maintenance is such a cool thing at all.

Anyway, how does one define an addict? If I wanted to use heroin twice a month or so... would I be able to get my script or not? Or do i have to be a true fiend in order to get my script for my daily fix? Something doesn't ring true to me, seems like the more gluttonous a person becomes, the more they're supported by the system.

Now I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here simply because I do not know what opiate addiction is like. But it really sounds very wrong to me. Sounds like addicts are being spoiled, rewarded almost for what was first and foremost, at some point, a choice, albeit a mighty unwise one, imho.

On top of all that, if I were a junkie and if I also got free junk, then no doubt I'd choose to get higher and higher, delving ever deeper into the opiate realm. I mean, come on, what/where's the limit? Money, usually...

Please correct me if you really think I'm wrong here.
 
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Ximot said:
i honestly do not know whether i agree with sponsoring addicts. so everyone who is disciplined enough to keep their use reasonable is gonan have to pay and those who go out of conrol get it all paid for? who's paying? everyone else who's a taxpayer, fleeced by the sytem to feed the users' indulgence or self-created and potentially temporary (unless discipline is lost entirely) necessity.
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Yeah, and while you're at it ban hill-walking, rock climbing, cycling, actually just ban everything that's not necessary to save some tax money. I mean seriously a hillwalker getting lost costs a lot of money ... and it their fault for over indulging :\

Jesus christ 8(
 
MrMoss said:
... and it their fault for over indulging :\

(
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if not theirs, then whose?



do you know the difference between sponsorship and legalisation, between not providing something for free and banning something? you are comparing apples and pears, really. and while you're at it, why not give free alcohol to all, too. Ah no, only to those who get drunk every day, everyone else please keep paying.
 
MrMoss said:
I mean seriously a hillwalker getting lost costs a lot of money ... and it their fault for over indulging :\
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actualyl I think I misread your statement last time...you're saying it's the hillwakers' fault... yes! I agree. I had misread it I think - I'd though tyou were askign whether it was the addicts' fault for overindulging - now here it's completely clear that, yes, it is, too.

If one overindulges, it is always one's own fault, I think.

Now, I have nothing against helping an addict at the community's expense. Helping themproperly, that is, helping them break the addiction. That's equivalent to helping the hillwalker get out of the maze. But actually supplying addicts with free dope, I don't think it's good. That's would be like building more and more hillwakers' paths around where they got lost so they won't ever (have to) get out as there's always more hills to discover... well,kinda. Eeeehm...
 
Since the amount of medical diamorphine being used will go up so much, the cost per unit will very likely come down. A 10 quid bag of heroin has about 50mg in it (UK). Here are the prices according to the BNF:

Diamorphine (Non-proprietary) Controlled drug
Tablets, diamorphine hydrochloride 10 mg. Net price 100-tab pack = £12.30. Label: 2
Injection, powder for reconstitution, diamorphine hydrochloride. Net price 5-mg amp = £1.77, 10-mg amp = £2.89, 30-mg amp = £3.07, 100-mg amp = £5.62, 500-mg amp = £31.03

Now, those 10mg tablets are called 'jacks' and they are actually DESIGNED to be injected. That means 12.30 per gram. How many people use 1g of pure material each day?
 
qwe said:
indeed. plus most drug users who go to jail relapse upon release


it is a well documented fact that the british prison system is a wash with heroin. the policy of drug testing (along with a well developed internal drugs network) pushes cannabis users towards heroin as they can dodge the drug tests for H by eating smokers toothpaste to cloud their samples until the heroin is out of their system. This is not just a lefty point of view. Lord Archer (conservative MP and writer of crap books who went to jail for purgery) discusses it in his prison diaries (the only books of his i have read).
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rashandreflex said:
what is the logic behind this? won't taking methadone every night block the effects of the heroin they are taking the next day?

also, how will they test for "street" heroin versus the heroin administered by the clinic? just levels of heroin/its metabolites in the blood? can't that measurement vary widely between people?
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good point

Methadones affinity to the mu and other receptors is way higher than heroins. Are they gonna give them enough heroin to bust through their tolerence each day? Is it just 2 shots of whatever your dose is per day? Well, Its seems like non drug users get the wrong idea when they hear drug users clan up with their other drug user friends and say shit like say 'OO free heroin ooo yeaahhh' Well, right now, the system really promotes that type of behavoir by keeping the drug so expensive and unattanable. The person can reallly lose their life simply on the search for the drug.
When it became not a 'cool' thing to do, no making you filthy fucking rich, or getting you friends and people would definitley feel the sting of the downsides of the addiction quicker. Heroin addiction is really not a good idea medically speaking. However, don't strike users because they made the decision to use in the first place, if you do, you do not understand addicition.
 
I still got a hit off heroin after taking methadone. What are the affinity values?
 
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