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NEWS: The Age 15 Sep 03: Random driver drug tests are on the way (Latest guess Dec 1)

driving's a privilege, not a right.

i don't see too many negatives. from what i've heard the worries about being detected for THC 24 hours after smoking are fairly unfounded. yeah it's a bit of a political stunt that they seem to be actively seeking out parties to test outside of, but better than the current situation.
 
I was thinking about this legal limit thing today. What they might have done is set some sort of limitation or threshold level to declare someone "under the influence" or "impaired by" a substance. However since drugs are illegal (and because they're running a political stunt), they can't admit this. Setting legal limits can be interpreted as the government condoning drug use, but only to a certain extent. This flies in the face of all the propaganda we've had thus far.

So, perhaps there will be limits (the purpose of which to distinguish between people who've pulled a cone 5 minutes ago and people who had their last joint 12 hours ago), but these limits will never be published or acknowledged. You'll just get a "pass" or "fail". They must know that if they fail too many people then they could face precedent setting court challenges which have the potential to undermine the whole scheme, so no doubt they'd want to keep the fails only for people clearly under the influence and not in a fit state to drive. And if that were the case then the plan has my full support.

I dunno, it's just a theory. But I have a question for RBB... where did you hear that "worries about being detected for THC 24 hours after smoking are fairly unfounded"?
 
^ My thought are along these hopeful lines too.

BT :)

PS: Yeah RBB let me in on this one :)
 
By definition if you test positive to an illegal substance then the law states under the rules of due process then you must be charged with the suitable offence therefore under a purely legailistic framework there can be no such room for sub-clauses such as impairment etc. This has very little to do with actually trying to stop people from drug driving, it is just a thinly veiled attempt to target drug users under the guise of harm prevention (which is also an attempt to replace harm reduction strategies, (something everybody here should be concerned about) with harm prevention which like supply and demand reduction accepts that you can entirely erradicate drug use, which is laughable in itself, but continues the clearly doomed 'war against drugs'). This kind of behaviour happens in the CJS all the time, in fact there is a furore in america at the moment because cops there constantly pull over ethnic minorities for a broken tail-light or bald tire, which they give them their reason to pull over the person, when in fact they only mean to search the occupants of the car for drugs and guns. Targeting one thing under the pretense of another, a clear violation of due process.
Has anybody even thought that this may pave the way for even more intrusion into your life by the CJS, hay why not test anybody randomly on the street for drugs, because they may commit a violent crime?
Bewarned the police state is coming, it's already here!
 
I read in The Age a couple of days ago that the test will only read positive if you have done the herb less than 3 hours prior and done speed 8 hours prior to being tested. I would guess people with scripts for ritalin or dexies would get away with it. Im not sure that ritalin would be detected but dexedrine would show up as amphetamine or not?

Anyways, way too many grey areas for this to work fairly and effectively imo.
 
Lets put it another way..

One life lost due to a drug relating driving accident/whatever is one too many

If it was your brother/sister/mother/father/grandmother/uncle/best friend... which it could be, next time they go driving. To be honest, I don't see why the hell people would need something like that to happen to understand the bloody dangers.

Why do these tests have to be 'fair'? Oh right, you mean fair to drug users who are breaking the law... ah gotchya ;)

Since when has it been 'fair' to lose a loved one to a drugged up careless fool?

IMO these tests will be, and already HAVE been effective 6 months prior to their introduction. They are making people think more responsibly about their driving habits, and will certainly act as a deterrent.

If people believe that since they will be targeting users around certain times, then its safer to wait and drive home in heavier traffic (when it's more dangerous); that is even more irresponsible! Get your fucking heads checked.
 
Why do these tests have to be 'fair'? Oh right, you mean fair to drug users who are breaking the law... ah gotchya ;)

Since when has it been 'fair' to lose a loved one to a drugged up careless fool?
On the issue of fairness - is it fair that someone who is not under the influence is prosecuted for driving under the influence? Your statement makes the assumption that anyone busted is not in a fit state to drive, but it's not yet established whether or not these tests will show a positive result for someone with traces of the drug still present in their system the day after. You might have a night on the speed (not a huge night maybe only a point or so) take a taxi home from the club and then sleep most of the day, wake up in the afternoon, sleep again that night, and drive to work early the next morning. It's feasible that there could still be enough in your system to show a positive result, yet you could hardly be considered to be "impaired". So labeling people a "drugged up careless fool" is totally dependant on the accuracy of the tests in distinguishing between people with trace levels of a drug who are no longer impaired by it, and people who are still trashed and pose a legitimate threat to people's safety.

That fundamentally is my only problem with the scheme. I'm all for preventing people who aren't in a fit state to drive from getting behind the wheel, however I'm totally against punishing people who take the time to recover properly before they get back behind the wheel.
IMO these tests will be, and already HAVE been effective 6 months prior to their introduction. They are making people think more responsibly about their driving habits, and will certainly act as a deterrent.
That statement there I totally agree with. As a deterrent this is very effective, and will encourage people at the very least to take public transport to and from the clubs, and home again from any "recoveries" they attend afterwards. One less person under the influence on the road is never a bad thing - as long as they are under the influence when they get caught.
 
Trust me deterrence doesn't work as a tool of social control, majoring in criminology i think that makes me more qualified to answer than most.
Furthermore even if deterrence did work then measures like these aren't going to deter people from driving under the influence for the myriad of reasons alluded to above (did you read them?)
As for your last point, people who share needles to avoid punishment under paraphenalia laws and get a blood borne infection, they get their heads read right? They prolly should, but my point is that it is a response to the system, change the system implement actual harm reduction strategies like needle exchanges and the problem's solved.

I'm not bloody advocating driving while under the influence it's a bloody stupid thing to do and one life lost to it is one too many, but if you think that measures like this one will in anyway stop this from happening, then your're as deluded as people who think they can stop people from dying from drugs by locking them up. More research needs to be done on this one, if they were trully concerned about it they would require drug test start up locks to be installed in new cars, that's a harm reduction strategy this is just another reactionary measure by the state on it's 'tough on drugs' stance.
 
I think i may of over stated my reasoning on deterrence, yes if it gets people to stop and think about it then yes it is a good thing. However, i agree with pleo as long as the people who are under the influence get caught.... why not just conduct a standard motor impairment test! Under a restorative justice framework that would protect the dominion of all.
Just think again of these types of testing proceedure being used as a deterence against drug taking in general, not a pleasant thought
 
Don't forget the other major variable in the "levels" debate. This is individual rates of metabolism. Alcohol is very different to other drugs in this regard but depending upon how quickly a person processes alcohol, metabolites are also likely to be there for different times with different people.

What makes alcohol very different to other drugs and individual responses is that the body has a built in mechanism for coping with regular or larger amounts of alcohol by making more enzymes (dehydrogenases, reductases and oxidases). The fructose-> glucose regenerated co-enzyme NADH is then almost completely prioritised to metabolising alcohol.

From my post on: Alcohol who considers it a drug

Moles, enzymes, 2 step & NAD+

On a molar basis, alcohol is consumed in far greater amounts than any other drug. A few drinks often involves more than a mole or two (1mole = 46g) being consumed. A “large” session may involve a MDMA molar equivalent of more than 1000 tablets, as 1 mole of MDMA HCl is 229g.

Posted by Pleo, this thread also contains an excellent basic graph comparison of duration of effect of various drugs and alcohol.

So, while variations exist between the metabolism of non-drinkers to regular drinkers to large drinkers to those with metabolic disorders to those on other medications etc., homeostasis ensures most people fit the gaussian 95% rule. The system for metabolising alcohol is therefore robust and relatively consistent between different people, even taking into account variations in race, background etc.


While this is also somewhat true with most drugs (take more & body attempts faster elimination) the variations in elimination may be considerable, among other things varying with water intake, previous food and drug consumption, fitness and other factors. This variation can be quite a bit more than for the alcohol model, as many people metabolise drugs via alternative routes compared to alcohol which can take either of 2 routes for each stage of catabolism (2) before being eliminated as acetic acid. (Note: this model is representative of a person with no liver or metabolic disease)

We know that as many as 1 in 10-20 people may have a P4502D6 deficiency (ethnicity and genetics being factors). This is the body's preferred metabolic path for MDMA, which due to kinetics involved in alternatives, also makes this the fastest pathway (other variations not considered).

We also know that MDMA is antidiuretic in effect. Some are affected by this more than others. What sort of variation exists if someone pees every 3/4 of an hour while someone else doesn't pee for 3-4 hours? Then there's Joe in the corner drinking a couple of lite beers and has no trouble pissing as the alcohol is diuretic in function and "overrides" effects from MDMA.

Then we have poly use or medication interactions which may not directly contribute to cause any noticeable additive affect, yet metabolism of both substances may be substantially changed or lengthened.


These are just some quick examples I can think of. With proposed testing, drugs are a pandoras box compared to alcohol. As for the "show positive - be charged with 3 offences"; I think there will be a large increase in reported drink spiking. after-all, if you say you didn't take anything and stick to that story, who's to say in this day and age that you weren't slipped a mickey?
 
so what would happen to habitual marijuana users? THC is resident in the body for ages... it may take months for THC levels to return to normal so you can pass a drug test.
 
Dante said:
^^^
And then surely you aren't going to charge those users that have had their drinks spiked, and are driving home after sleeping it off in the first aid section?

yes they will charge such persons and leave it up to the courts to decide...
and the magistrates are already over loaded.
 
the article in the age made it look like it was only targetting weed and amphetimines........ i'm not sure about other drugs but it made it clear that it would not target prescription drugs (even though some of these have amphetimines???). But yeh it was the age so who knows...
 
I feel sorry for you guys that live in Vic, hope it doesn't come to Qld, because we have to drive for hours for raves which are in the middle of the bush... how do they expect us to get home from there with out driving??
 
You might consider chartering a bus. There's some pretty understandable drivers around from what I've heard ;) Try looking in an area with lots of independent tour operators. They often have 4WD vehicles (perhaps for beach travel?) and if the party location is not too distant, it may well involve little interruption to their normal business hours.....just a thought.
 
Posted by .dR spgeddi in the Super Important thread in social, in response to a question of whether this had been approved or not he said: "yes it has... and we are all still trying to get a handle on it. theyre blitzing this weekend i here."

I thought this was still at parliment waiting approval. How can they be using these powers already when there are no rules or guidelines for them to follow? I'm not disputing .dR spgeddi at all, I'm more questioning whether they can actually do this.
 
I've heard numerous reports (unsubstantiated) that they have already been using the tests, but my questions were never answered by the parties involved. I would imagine that they WOULD be able to do this, and just expect that joe drugtaker isn't aware of his rights in regards to it. I could see the logic in a 'pilot' sceme for them to test out the system, and perhaps use the results as substantiating evidence before parliament. My question is, how do you ind out what your rights are? How are we to know if we can refuse the test or not? if I was driving this weekend and got pulled up, i'd be sure to question the authoriy of the officer giving me the test, and ask what refusal results in.
 
I'm slightly hoping that I encounter one of these busses when I haven't got anything in my system. Knowing that they can't bust me for anything, I'd like to ask as many questions as I can to suss out what our rights and obligations are.

Any bluelighter that is stopped by the drug bus (and isn't under the influence and thus can't be busted for anything) should quiz the cops and find out as much as they can. It's probably the only way we're going to find this stuff out.
 
if their doing the testing before it is approved in parliment.etc. i.e. coming in next june then say NO.....
i'm prepared to take the risk of whatever they will say to me if i get 'drug bussed' befor next june....
and i will tell you all everything about it.
DfI;)
 
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