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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

NEWS: Move to Ban Meth Pipes in Victoria - Herald Sun - 12/01/03

PP I seriously doubt you would be getting high distinctions at university with your wiggly line of arguement, ice or not. It is interesting how people who don't have the intelligence to properly debate an issue pull up every semi-related issue they can, tag on a bit of abuse and then think they have argued something.
As I said, the availability of ice pipes draws more people into use who might not otherwise try the drug. If people are actively seeking to try it I am sure they will.
If using ice made your life better then I am happy for you, but it certainly doesn't improve everyone's and in my opinion the less people that use it - the better.
 
The problem isn't the ice-pipes, it's the ice. The fact remains that people will continue to smoke the substance as long as there is a supply of it, regardless of whether there are ready made pipes for people to use or not.

Also, I find your logic that ice-pipes create new users as fundamentally flawed. Ice pipes have been available for many, many years in paraphenalia shops, yet there has only been a marked rise in the use of methamphetamine over the last three years or so. So is it the pipes creating the new users, or is it the fact that there is a higher supply available to young people? I am taking a punt but I would guess you're not someone who would use amphetamines recreationally. Am I correct? So on what basis do you draw your conclusion that ice-pipes create more novice users? To draw a bad analogy (analogies usually are bad 8)), your logic is the same as taking away access to condoms to prevent teenage sex because they might encourage people to have sex. The fact remains, teenagers will always experiment with sex, shouldn't we at least make it as safe as possible for them?
 
Maybe its just me being 'noid, but there's something about this that keeps screaming "Troll!" at me.

My $0.022 (GST Inclusive)

Kid_Cisco.
 
The problem you've created now journo is there was probably people out there who didn't know about ice pipes before and now you've gone and put a big right up in the paper about them.

I know my inquisitive little mind would be ticking over thinking I best go out and buy one before they ban them, they must be good if so many people are buying them after all. =D
 
PP I seriously doubt you would be getting high distinctions at university with your wiggly line of arguement, ice or not

I don't wish to give any impression I support such tactics, but I know many people who have done this including one girl who passed 7 subjects in one term working virtually round the clock with no less the a distinction as her worst pass. She told me she never used meth for recreational purposes, just to finish her medical degree faster. Although not having seen her for some time, AFAIK she doesn't use and hasen't since her general practice appointment several years ago.

Perhaps you should look at the average improvement in the grades of kids on dexamphetamine. It's can't be said it's not due to the drug, but does it work whether there is a "diagnosable disease" present or not? Of course it does.

The question here is: Is it fair to other kids, especially if grade passes are not competency based, and involve a limited 50% pass rate?
 
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Fry-d- said:
The problem you've created now journo is there was probably people out there who didn't know about ice pipes before and now you've gone and put a big right up in the paper about them.

I know my inquisitive little mind would be ticking over thinking I best go out and buy one before they ban them, they must be good if so many people are buying them after all. =D

dammit, i was about to make that point! :(
i think banning pipes is too little too late. already we're seeing large amounts of abuse in our society.
i think by banning the pipes, you're merely forcing another industry underground.. shops will soon spring up selling alternatives under different marketting strategies.. in this case, where there is demand, there is supply. but, as someone mentioned above (and on a slightly side note), the ice supply isn't so much created by demand initially (although at a later dependance stage yes), but by supply. its the kind of drug from my experiences (not doctrine), that ice is offered cheaply at first, and more expensively as dependance increases. the supply is creating the demand in my mind.

banning paraphenalia, is in my mind, almost a side issue to the problem that's really at hand, and i think any moves to ban the sale of such devices is an admission by state govt, that they can't really deal with the core issue. if you could have an impact on a drug's use directly, would you really bother about the paraphenalia?
i think its a side step by the govt to try and dodge a bullet..
 
I do not amphetamines recreationally, however I have used methamphetamine when for studying exams and completing assignments by working through the nights and foregoing sleep. I am sure this is not uncommon for other University students, and I have no problems with keeping any amphetamine use limited solely to education.
 
the journo said:
PP I seriously doubt you would be getting high distinctions at university with your wiggly line of arguement, ice or not.
Well too bad it's true.....wah.

It is interesting how people who don't have the intelligence to properly debate an issue pull up every semi-related issue they can, tag on a bit of abuse and then think they have argued something.
Whaat the hell are you talking about? just because i'm not agreeing with your article, doesn't mean I'm unintelligent. You're a moron for making that point. It's just like Bush making arguments against his government a fellony.

As I said, the availability of ice pipes draws more people into use who might not otherwise try the drug. If people are actively seeking to try it I am sure they will.
As I said, they've been around for fucking DECADES!!!!!!! Nothing more needs to be discussed on that!

If using ice made your life better then I am happy for you, but it certainly doesn't improve everyone's and in my opinion the less people that use it - the better.
And all those poor alcholics have the best life under the sun...fuck, nothing is black and white. It happens to the best of us.
 
Ok, Ok. It's understandable to feel so passionate over these issues, but please try and contain the anger a bit. I possibly haven't made things easier with the tone of my posts today, but we need to keep things civil.

Psychadelic_Paisly, I hate to pull you up, you've addressed each point concisely. But we will never encourage other journalists to contribute and learn from Bluelight, if we don't absorb a few punches like the experienced people we are. the journo may have also been out of line, but it's his first day, the issue is work related and closer too by the sounds of things.

So his/her statements should be seen more as concern and frustration about an issue which seems wrong on all accounts.

It's our job to make this as easy as possible.

Let's all try harder eh?
 
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This has been an extremely interesting thread. Great job phase_dancer.
 
phase_dancer said:
...
It's our job to make this as easy as possible.

Let's all try harder eh?

Bring it on p_d!!

Lets have a reasonable discussion.
I am not a huge meth user, the bad's largely outweigh the good's, but I believe banning pipes is not the way to stop people using it.

Before the government decided to ban Salvia, I had never heard of it. It made me go out and buy some just before the cut-off date.

"Now it is the second most popular drug behind cannabis," he said.

Then why are bongs still legal? Surely banning bongs would come before banning glass pipes? Then where does it end?
 
to The Journalist

First of all, hello and welcome to Bluelight! Thank you for coming into our forum to respond to our views on your article - it really is much appreciated, despite the hostile atmosphere. Please realise that most of the members of our community are recreational drug users, and as such we are used to consistently being portrayed in a negative light by the media, hence we tend to be a little over-defensive :)

That said, there are a few points in your article that do smack of poor research. Yes, methamphetamine can be a dangerous, psychosis-stimulating drug when abused - few people in here are debating that. Our major criticism is your assumption that banning paraphenalia will reduce methamphetamine use. Have you researched into amphetamine use patterns in relation to market supply and price as well as relative availability of paraphenalia? Have you looked into the addictiveness of methamphetamine (use required, degree of addictiveness, mode of addiction, etc)? It would also have been useful if you had explained how methamphetamine use can lead to psychosis and violent behaviour. You seem to be overly focussing on the issue of pipe availability, rather than the issues of true importance: methamphetamine availability and use patterns and impacts of use.

As has previously been mentioned, many of us believe (through personal experience and via research papers) that paraphenalia availability has little real impact on illicit drug consumption. People who were already using/interested in using crystalline meth may experiment with a pipe, however few people who had not previously considered experimenting with the drug would be likely to reconsider their choice in light of a novel method of ingestion.

So if you take the view (as most people experienced with recreational drug use will tell you) that people will use if they want to, regardless of implement, banning one of the safer methods of administering a drug makes no sense at all. If people want to try crystalline meth, they will. They may smoke it from a pipe - the safest method of smoking the drug - or from a foil or a lightbulb, despite the increased risks of the latter methods. They may choose to crush it up, cut it and snort it, or, as with my encounter with the drug, dissolve it and drink it. Bluelight is dedicated to promoting harm minimisation, so I'm sure you can see why we believe banning pipes completely to be a bad idea. Not only does it contradict our harm minimisation philosophy, through personal experiences we don't believe it will greatly impact methamphetamine use patterns.

You mentioned later about pipes being passed around like joints at parties. Judging by the responses this comment generated, I suspect no Bluelighters have ever seen such a practise. Your story does, however, focus on the upper classes, and perhaps Toorak teenagers do have the funds available to shout their friends a "hit" (I assume you mean a point - i.e. 0.1g) each at $30-$40 per person. As you realise, this is an unrepresentative and small social subset, and it is a pity that your article focuses on this fraction of society. Methamphetamine use is not restricted to the upper classes, nor are addiction and psychosis. Likewise, addiction and psychosis are not restricted to meth users.

As phase-dancer elucidated, drug (ab)use is often not the cause of psychotic behaviour, but merely a trigger. But this is not a debate about broader mental health issues. Your article was largely emotively based, rather than researched, which is a major criticism of Herald Sun journalism. This is highlighted by this sentence in particular:
Major shopping centres have the pipes on display in full view of window shoppers and children.
What is seeing a pipe in a window going to do to a child? They'd have no idea what is was, and likely wouldn't even pay it any heed, but you play the emotive card, after all, doesn't everyone want to protect the children? Although that's not to say that many of us don't agree with you in part: there is no need for smoking implements of any kind to be displayed openly in stores. All forms of smoking are hazardous to health and as such it is desirable not to promote any form of smoking. Perhaps a better (and more likely to deliver desirable outcomes for all parties) campaign would be to prevent public display of pipes, bongs, etc but to permit stores to stock them behind counters and without promotional advertising (as with all forms of tobacco in QLD).

I hope you can appreciate our views on this topic and understand that we probably understand more about drug-taking behaviours than your average Joe. If you really want to minimize the incidence of meth-induced violence and psychosis, honest public education about the effects of the drug, backed up by scientific research is probably your best bet.

Please stay and have a look around our site - I think you will find things to interest you; perhaps
here , here, and here.
For non-Bluelight information on methamphetamine, perhaps this and this may be useful.

:)Smiley
 
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That's the spirit :)

^ Fab post smileyfish. Been trying to get you here for a while (ie more posting in ADD) and that was an excellently prepared post. Thanx and feel encouraged to post more
14.gif
 
the journo said:
All week I have been getting calls from families who have brothers, sons and daughters hooked on ice. I had a guy call who checked himself into a mental institution the day before because ice gave him psychosis.

Mental wards are full of people from 18-27 who have become paranoid, violent and unhinged because of ice. Speak to any psych nurse if you don't believe me.
I'm a psych nurse and this is not my experience. Yes we see people with psychosis related to amphetamine use, but the wards aren't "full" of such people. Of note, most of these people have either a history of mental illness, and / or a history of polysubstance use. Therefore, it is often not clear what role amphetamine use has played in the development of that episode. Often, in those cases the amphetamine use is considered a "trigger" to an episode, due to that persons history of metal illness. In my experience, episodes of psychosis that are solely attributed to amphetamine use (or other drug use for that matter) are pretty uncommon. Having said that, it's a pity figures aren't kept on such things, in order to gauge the extent of this problem.

If you could also note, we don't call them mental institutions these days. Psychiatric unit / ward / hospital or mental health facility are both far preferable, and less stigmatising for those who use them.
 
I don't have anything to add after smileyfish and Babydoc but props to you both for great posts.

eagerly awaits the journo to see if he took any of it on board.

Bluelighters Rock
 
As a side bar, related to the mention of the increase of "ice" use within the well-to-do ("Toorak") community, there's one very real reason a lot of these people have turned to smoking meth over the past year or so - supply of coke dried up almost completely for many of them...and so they've turned to other drugs - its extremely obvious in many of the big clubs around town.

Since supply seems to be increasing I've notice a lot of "new" meth users have returned to charlie...
 
the journo said:
I wrote the article and am yet to read one arguement or criticism that has any validity
Not only is your logic flawed, as has been repeatedly expressed in this thread yet conveniently ignored by you, but as I noted in my first post, you state a blatant untruth.
Methamphetamine is NOT a new drug.
It has been in widespread usage since World War 2. If you don't believe me then please do a little research, you are a journalist afterall.
I mean is getting the truth too much to ask from a major newspaper? It's beginning to seem so, as you haven't even conceded the fact that you clearly know little about the substance nor it's history of usage, in fact your article seems to be pieced together from hearsay - it has very little unopinionated factual content.

Please remember the responsibility that comes with your job, thousands depend on you to inform them of the world around them. If you don't feel an obligation to seek and spread the truth then please find another line of work. There would be thousands who would be willing to take your place who hold the sort of convictions that should be held sacred to journalists. Judging by this article, you hold no such commitment to truth, it reads like an Op-Ed from a low budget teen magazine.
Please don't take this personally, just take your job more seriously.
If you ever have questions relating to recreational drug use in Australia, bluelight would be a good place to start.
There are many knowledgable people here (and many who aren't but that's why this site exists) who would be happy to answer any questions you may have, whether it be cold hard facts your after or just a different perspective. Please try and get a balanced perspective, and please, please try to get the simple facts right.
Scaring the public with misinformation achieves nothing, informing the public of the truth is not only more effective, it's the right thing to do.
 
The Journo: I was wondering, have you ever smoked, or even tried methamphetamine?
 
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