Neutralization of Acetic Acid in solution with Acetylfentanyl Acetate

[DL-ark]

So, a while back, I went ahead and acquired a gram of Acetylfentanyl freebase. Not having access to any significant equipment, I simply dissolved the ACE in some 150ml of water with 50ml of 5% vinegar. I soon found out that I could have done with a lot less vinegar, as the solution was far from being safe for nasal use. I have since settled for using a .1ml spray bottle and squirting the solution under my tongue(which in the bottle is mixed with some peppermint extract which completely negates the vinegar flavor, and actually leaves me with good breath). However, I am wondering if it would be possible to neutralize the remaining acetic acid in the solution without causing the acetylfentanyl to fall into freebase form and thus out of solution. I am a bit worried about doing a full evaporation, as I do not like the idea of letting so much potent opiate either sit out and dry, or get cooked in a pot. I understand fentanyl and it's analogues are fairly fragile molecules.

So, if I were to mix in, for example, add baking soda into the solution, would it only react with the vinegar or would it also de-salt the ACE.

If there is no solution, that's alright as acetylfentanyl for me seems especially euphoric when administered sublingually, but it seems that when insufflated it feels much more like a proper opiate, which I would enjoy having an easy option for doing. At the moment I have been leaving a small metal lens shaped object with some of the solution inside resting in an old mint tin secured over a fluorescent light bulb to quickly evaporate, but it is inconvenient and I am worried that by exposing the ACE to some light + heat I am losing yield.

Anyway, if anyone has any answers for me, it would be much appreciated. I realize this is a very chemistry oriented question, but I've posted it here as it is pretty drug-related.

 

[Solipsis]

Normally you'd titrate: vigorously stir (magnetically) the solution and slowly drop in a solution of bicarbonate, that would fizz as the acetic acid neutralizes with it forming carbon dioxide gas. The stirring is to avoid concentrating the bicarbonate locally (it needs to be homogenous for proper control of the process). Whether the fent analogue starts freebasing again to an appreciable extent before most of your acetic acid is neutralized depends on the pKa, which is 8.4 so if you have pH strips (you can get them for aquaria) I would not go higher than pH 6 to 6.5 or so.
The titration would be done when there is no more bubbling or fizzing from evolving carbon dioxide, and/or reaching pH 6-6.5 to be sure. Higher towards 8.4 and you would start seeing 0.5% to 5% to 50% of the ace becoming freebase.

Alternatively one might do a non-polar extraction to recover the freebase all over again (before accurately salting it this time) though it would indeed 'sit out and dry'.

Don't think I have to remind you how utterly dangerous fucking with large amounts of fents is?

Not sure what ROA you are aiming for but you could also neutralize in situ by putting it in your mouth together with an alkaline beverage? Seems like you would end up with like sodium acetate anyway which is nasty salt n sour tasting.
Making a salad dressing from it at that point seems like a highly preferable strategy than trying kitchen chemistry workups without experience or knowhow with chems that could kill you if you accidentally get too much in you.

 

[aced126]

Don't think I have to remind you how utterly dangerous fucking with large amounts of fents is?

Agreed, be careful with that stuff.

 

[PINKoPANaTHER]

Since the pKa is known, if you know the exact concentrations of your acetylfentanyl and acetic acid, you could use molar calulations to find the proper amount of bicarbonate (making a 1 M solution would make things even easier). Get a basic chemistry book (if you don't have the equilibrium constants handy) and use the simple equation to find the exact amount of acetate required to salt the fent. (Thinking about it now, you wouldn't need the bicarb if this went well, and you would have a minimal amount of either unsalted fent, or acetate left, which should minimize the "vinegary-ness" of your solution. This would require a fairly accurate scale, but would minimize the hassle and titration time. You cold still use the pH strips to test if you under or over shot with your measurements (which is easily possible depending on the purity of the acetyl fentanyl), and based on the pH, add acetate or bicarb slowly to adjust/titrate.

 

[DL-ark]

Agreed, be careful with that stuff.

There is a reason I am taking extensive measures to volumetrically dose. I only work with the pure liquid in small amounts. The liquid is dosed at 5mg per ml, which is very low, as I am dosing at .1ml. Thank you for your consideration, maybe I should just accept the magical salad dressing for what it is, and not mess with it.

Not sure what ROA you are aiming for but you could also neutralize in situ by putting it in your mouth together with an alkaline beverage? Seems like you would end up with like sodium acetate anyway which is nasty salt n sour tasting.
Making a salad dressing from it at that point seems like a highly preferable strategy than trying kitchen chemistry workups without experience or knowhow with chems that could kill you if you accidentally get too much in you.

I am going for nasal ROA. I have been taking acefent both nasally and sublingually for several months. Trust me, I know this shit, I have a tolerance and I still dose low. Previously I purchased a pre-prepared solution, but recently I prepared my own and obviously it was too acidic. I have been safely using my vinegar solution, even though it smells like chinese food and tastes like old salad .

Anyway, I promise everyone on BL I will continue to be quite safe and cautious. There is a reason I have chosen acefent over fent (christ i can't even imagine looking at the powder and not getting high with how potent that stuff is). Thank you very much solipsis for your help. I have a pretty basic understanding of chemistry, but I did need help with this problem. I might try doing this with a small amount of my solution sometime soon. I'll be sure to let you guys know how it went if I do.

 

[clubcard]

I urge the OP to be VERY careful with any fentanyl analogue. The tachyphylaxis is bad enough but the benzene/thiophene/furan on the tertiary amine is binding to an extra site than H and similar. I've talked to a lot of chemists who broke rule 1 - never get high on you're own supply and ended up with 20-minute habits i.e. 72 doses every 24 hours. The use of fixed-dose nasal inhalers seems to be standard. Lest we forget, Thomas K Highsmith made etonitazene (about x60 morphine in humans) and reached that level. When he got busted, even without previously getting a methadone script to anywhere near what he needed forced him to take his own life. Again, that triethylamine moiety was binding to that second lipophilic pocket and of the people who have had any kind of long habit with affinity to an extra point, it appears that something irreversible happens to the μ3 subtype. Since this subtype isn't sensitive to the endorphins but some opiates are, my best guess is that this subtype down-regulates fast (leading to a 20-minute habit) and since methadone doesn't interact with it, I would be checking μ3 binding. It's kind of been known for a long time with compounds like N-phenylethyl normorphine, that is the extra pocket. I have no proof of this but the fact that people end up with such huge habits is ideal for the dealers. Easy to export, HUGE customer demand and turns sub-par heroin into Red Rum and such... I would be careful. Just my 2¢,,, oh - and you want the citrate.

 

[serotonin2A]

I urge the OP to be VERY careful with any fentanyl analogue. The tachyphylaxis is bad enough but the benzene/thiophene/furan on the tertiary amine is binding to an extra site than H and similar. I've talked to a lot of chemists who broke rule 1 - never get high on you're own supply and ended up with 20-minute habits i.e. 72 doses every 24 hours. The use of fixed-dose nasal inhalers seems to be standard. Lest we forget, Thomas K Highsmith made etonitazene (about x60 morphine in humans) and reached that level. When he got busted, even without previously getting a methadone script to anywhere near what he needed forced him to take his own life. Again, that triethylamine moiety was binding to that second lipophilic pocket and of the people who have had any kind of long habit with affinity to an extra point, it appears that something irreversible happens to the μ3 subtype. Since this subtype isn't sensitive to the endorphins but some opiates are, my best guess is that this subtype down-regulates fast (leading to a 20-minute habit) and since methadone doesn't interact with it, I would be checking μ3 binding. It's kind of been known for a long time with compounds like N-phenylethyl normorphine, that is the extra pocket. I have no proof of this but the fact that people end up with such huge habits is ideal for the dealers. Easy to export, HUGE customer demand and turns sub-par heroin into Red Rum and such... I would be careful. Just my 2¢,,, oh - and you want the citrate.

Fentanyl and its analogs do not bind to mu3. Only opiates do. It is mostly responsible for peripheral effects, such as vasodialation and immunomodulation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9687094

Opioids that bind with high affinity (slow dissociation) are usually very good at recruiting beta-arrestin, which leads to rapid internalization. In fentanyl and etonitazene, the high propensity to induce tachyphylaxis is combined with a fairly short duration of action, meaning that addicts have to use ever increasing doses to produce an ever shortening response. The end result is the use pattern that you are describing. The use of a nasal spray is especially conducive to this pattern because it allows you to couple reinforcement to a motor behavior (spraying) that you can do repeatedly and very often.

 

[DL-ark]

Is there any opioid as accessible as fentanyl analogues I can switch too? currently im not super physically addicted yet but since I switched to the acetate salt I have noticed this sort of dosing pattern, especially with nasal administration it seems to only last about 30 mins. Maybe I should stick to sublingual? At most though I am only using 7 doses a day, but I haven't experienced any acceleration since the initial. I have also gone 48 hour periods without any with only some minor headaches.

However, I am still concerned. Fent analogues are VERY inexpensive per dose but obviously do not last long. lol... could I make a DIY skin patch? seems like a really bad idea... as does continuing use of fents..

 

[serotonin2A]

Is there any opioid as accessible as fentanyl analogues I can switch too? currently im not super physically addicted yet but since I switched to the acetate salt I have noticed this sort of dosing pattern, especially with nasal administration it seems to only last about 30 mins. Maybe I should stick to sublingual? At most though I am only using 7 doses a day, but I haven't experienced any acceleration since the initial. I have also gone 48 hour periods without any with only some minor headaches.

However, I am still concerned. Fent analogues are VERY inexpensive per dose but obviously do not last long. lol... could I make a DIY skin patch? seems like a really bad idea... as does continuing use of fents..

The idea of moving from a nasal spray to a skin patch would make this much more dangerous. With fentanyl skin patches, the skin acts as a reservoir of fentanyl, and you continue to absorb the drug through your skin for several hours after you remove the patch. I doubt that you would be able to design a skin patch that won't cause dose dumping, meaning that you could easily accidentally overdose. The PK of that route means that even if you realize that you are overdosing and manage to pull off the patch, it may be too late. Many people have died from fentanyl patches made under GMP conditions -- I don't think you will be able to make one that even approximates the safety of the real thing.

 

[DL-ark]

The idea of moving from a nasal spray to a skin patch would make this much more dangerous. With fentanyl skin patches, the skin acts as a reservoir of fentanyl, and you continue to absorb the drug through your skin for several hours after you remove the patch. I doubt that you would be able to design a skin patch that won't cause dose dumping, meaning that you could easily accidentally overdose. The PK of that route means that even if you realize that you are overdosing and manage to pull off the patch, it may be too late. Many people have died from fentanyl patches made under GMP conditions -- I don't think you will be able to make one that even approximates the safety of the real thing.

Yeah, that was exactly my thought. I just thought it might be possible that transdermal ROA is actually simpler than it seems, but it is clearly not.

Anyway, I plan on keeping to my usual sublingual dosing, while I might try to experiment with small amounts in both neutralizing and maybe doing a very, very basic acid base extraction using baking soda, water, citric acid, and good old evaporation. (freebase the fent/vinegar solution using baking soda, dry, wash off sodium acetate with water, dry, mix with (equimolar?) concentration of citric acid or acetic acid, dry, dissolve in saline water)

 

[clubcard]

Fentanyl and its analogs do not bind to mu3. Only opiates do. It is mostly responsible for peripheral effects, such as vasodialation and immunomodulation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9687094

Opioids that bind with high affinity (slow dissociation) are usually very good at recruiting beta-arrestin, which leads to rapid internalization. In fentanyl and etonitazene, the high propensity to induce tachyphylaxis is combined with a fairly short duration of action, meaning that addicts have to use ever increasing doses to produce an ever shortening response. The end result is the use pattern that you are describing. The use of a nasal spray is especially conducive to this pattern because it allows you to couple reinforcement to a motor behavior (spraying) that you can do repeatedly and very often.

I stand corrected but I can assure you that 1 year down the line with NO opiates they were still in withdrawal. I DO know that Estonia has the highest rat of fatal opioid ODs and now it's spreading to Finland and Norway and I caught the end of a Swedish site where people were discussing their favourite analogue and β-hydroxythiofentanyl seemed to come out on top. I am woefully ignorant of the scene in these places but is it being sold AS specific analogue so people would want to try them all. I can certainly see a bench-top scale providing enough for the whole demand for opioids. If anyone has info (in any language of the spread in Europe, I would greatly appreciate some pointers as the Channel Islands & Scottish Islands have irregular H supplies and they all have about 25% of ODs from H & 25% from F. The rest were alcohol + downers.

I'm writing a long-form then having it edited down for DDN (Drink & Drug News) which is a HR worker magazine. I'm still waiting for Chinese friend to translate the Chinese thienorphine papers (both!) but she isn't a chemist so we have to piece it together.