Neurotoxity, does it go away?

[baileylsd]

Ok, so i posted about this in another thread and have not had much results so.

After around a year of mild xtc usage (average around 3 pills per month, mostly on the same night) i've noticed my memory is well, there ain't much left and i seem to have trouble generally using my brain (heaps slower then it used to be when thinking bout how to do things etc.)

Anyway i think this is due to toxity, because i remember after 1 huge bender how these problems became more noticable.

Ok, so basicly will my brain ever repair itself?

I know that this is still being researched and some have said yes, others no.

What i'm looking for is have you or people u know suffered these same kind of problems and did u or your friends overtime regain the ability to remember things well and to think sharply again?

Thanks

Bailey

 

[Ecostotin]

The most noticable thing I experienced during my peak usage was stuttering words, and it was very noticable! It's completely gone now; it does improve, just take a decent break. A couple of months should sort you out, and take it easy from then. Your memory will certainly improve over time, so perhaps you should give it some.

 

[monkyfunky]

Neurotoxicity, does it ever occur (in a significant amount)?

 

[VelocideX]

It's unlikely that neurotoxicity has occurred from the pattern of use you've described... memory problems do become noticeable for many people, especially after heavy use...

abstinence will fix all; 5-htp and a good multivitamin will also probably help!

Eat well, exercise, and you should be as good as new within a month or so (depends from user to user... some take 2 weeks, some take a few months)

 

[tak]

I have also noticed some memory loss, and a slow down in general thinking, or whatever....mostly after long drug filled binges like you said. It took a lil while to recoop, but all's fixed.

 

[sMiLeYcHrIs]

After my heavy use, my memory was pretty bad, I had problems with stuttering, and my mind felt constantly foggy. This improved gradually after about 6 months of no use, and I feel back to normal now.

 

[BilZ0r]

Just out of curiosity VelocideX, why do you say "It's unlikely that neurotoxicity has occurred from the pattern of use you've described"?

I was under the impression that there are a number of studies which showed some degree of toxicity?

 

[VelocideX]

There are indeed studies which show that toxicity CAN occur with MDMA use, but most of the studies involve animals with rediculous dosing regimes, often of 10mg/kg, injected, 4x a day for several days...

I'm not denying that MDMA can be neurotoxic, but there's a rather large many retrospective studies of recreational MDMA users where nothing is found.

Consider Semple DM, Ebmeier KP, Glabus MF, O'Carroll RE, Johnstone EC "Reduced in vivo binding to the serotonin transporter in the cerebral cortex of MDMA ("ecstasy") users" Br J Psychiatry, 1999; 175:63-9. This examined users with a lifetime average of 647 tablets, and no long term changes appeared in brain scans with sufficient abstinence.

Have you read TheDEA's website on neurotoxicity? I think you may find it quite informative.

 

[VelocideX]

It's worth noting that many (but not all) of the symptoms of heavy MDMA abuse are similar to those of SSRI discontinuation... that may provide you with a little peace of mind, since they all (generally) recover...

 

[BilZ0r]

I thought you were going to cite that web site. I don't put to much faith in that website... especially when the author considers himself "one the world's leading experts on MDMA".

Meanwhile, yes I'm aware of that article. For one, no one said neurotoxicity has to be permanent. Indeed, the definition most cited, the ICON definition, specifically states that changes can be reversible. Also, pharmacological markers for neurotoxicity are poor, indeed some classical neurotoxins leave no pharmacological tracers of their damage. But still, in light of that, there are a couple of studies which show long term pharmacological changes in MDMA users, (5-HT2a). Meanwhile, there are behavioural changes which have been shown to persist for some time in humans after MDMA usage.

One shouldn't be too quick to comment on a subject that hasn't even begun to unfold.

 

[VelocideX]

Any drug use can produce long term behavioural alterations... even antidepressant medications can cause long-term behavioural changes that do not cease after the administration of the drug... In general this effect is positive, and results from psychological changes whilst "under the influence" -- they see the world in a different fashion, and so many remain undepressed after their course is finished. You could argue that this isn't really an adverse behavioural change, and so who cares? But the fact of the matter is that there is evidence that long term SSRI use can permenantly alter the serotonergic system in the brain...

Which neurotoxins are you referring to that leave no trace of their existence?

I agree the ICON definition is different to the loosely used definition which most people seem to understand it to be.

For Baileylsd the question seems to be simply will he recover his memory and cognitive function after a period of abstinence... his usage isn't particularly excessive, certainly not on the order of the hundreds of pills you see in some users....

I thought you were going to cite that web site. I don't put to much faith in that website... especially when the author considers himself "one the world's leading experts on MDMA".

If you don't place faith there, the question is then with which research groups do you place it? Ricuarte has done some good research but much of it is flawed... Many researchers believe his claims are massively overstated, and the fact of the matter is that no other research group doing retrospective cognitive and/or neuroimaging tests has found statistically significant irreversible damage to recreational human users...

 

[BilZ0r]

Antidepressants cause changes which persist after you stop taking them??? Oh, I see what you mean... Hmm, well don't get me started on antidepressants... whether they work or not, it's even more dodgy that they keep working when you stop taking them.. I mean, in not disagreeing with you on that point per sae, just that it's tenuous.

A neurotoxin under the icon definition, basically has to produce a physical change, with an associated negative behavioural change. So you need to try and argue that if there is a change induced by SSRIs, you need to argue that it's negative.

When I said not leave a trace, I meant, crudely, like most of the tests used in humans. Like, very low levels of hypoxia, can produce a very small selective loss of cells in the CA1 of the hippocampus... you could probably see it now using a really good PET scanner... but using gross pharmacological techniques, no. ... And I would personally argue that at least in rats, in high doses, THC is neurotoxic, but it doesn't cause any pharmacological changes... well none that have been found, but if you look at the hippocampus, it's changed.

Well the memory is one of the behavioural changes that has been found to be effected even after a, 3 months? 1 year? of abstinence.

Well comparing Ricuarte to Ole' Nathan is a bit of a stretch. I mean, Whether or not Ricuarte is biased and crap (and an MD ) he still does research. My point is that any doctoral or post doctoral student who has done a thesis on MDMA, of which there must be hundreds, if not closer to 1000, will have read more than Nathan, and hence he is hardly a world expert.

 

[TheDEA.org]

I thought you were going to cite that web site. I don't put to much faith in that website... especially when the author considers himself "one the world's
leading experts on MDMA".

It was made half in jest, but I'll still stand by the claim. Would you care to point out a single item (in a web site the size of a book) that you feel is incorrect? (There are no doubt errors, and some updating is needed...that's just the nature of the beast. But do you have something particular in mind that makes you doubt my familiarity with the drug?) (Or are you just annoyed that I didn't give you a ref for transporter mediated exchange? I don't always have the time to do your searches for you; if you really want the refs, they're at the bottom of the MDMA At Work page. Imagine that; refs on the pages discussing the topic. I'll try not to hide them so cleverly next time.)

For one, no one said neurotoxicity has to be permanent. Indeed, the definition most cited, the ICON definition, specifically states that changes can be reversible.

A definition so vague as to render the term almost useless. If 'neurotoxicity' is any somewhat persistent undesirable change to brain function/structure, then a cup of coffee is (slightly) neurotoxic.

There is clearly a clinically important phenomenon rooted in transient (we hope/assume) cellular changes going on with the e-tards, but it's also distinct from (and should be given a distinct label from) actual irreversible structural damage of the sort so thoroughly demonstrated in Ricaurte's e-monkeys.

My point is that any doctoral or post doctoral student who has done a thesis on MDMA, of which there must be hundreds, if not closer to 1000, will have read more than Nathan, and hence he is hardly a world expert.

My comprehensive reading has fallen behind. I've read everything known to have been written in the english-language journals up to mid 2003 (I'll confess to having skimmed lately.) That amounted to about 1200 articles, although I believe the available total is about 1500 these days, but that will have to wait I fear. How much have you read?

You snicker and slander rather freely...on what basis? Where have I fallen short in my work? Granted it's targeted to people without a lot of technical background. Perhaps you can't be respected if you're readable to the layman. ;-)

Well the memory is one of the behavioural changes that has been found to be effected even after a, 3 months? 1 year? of abstinence.

A finding heavily confounded by concomitant marijuana use as well as significant pre-'ecstasy' population differences in the incidence of mental illness (and no doubt other things.) That their performance was ever equivalent to the more sane and sober general population is, as fiction writers say, the 'one major suspension of disbelief' too easily allowed to the authors.

 

[XTSHE]

I found after my frequent use of meth a few years ago i have lost some of my long term memory but it hasnt seemed to have gotten any worse since changing to bikkies

 

[BilZ0r]

Well this isn't really the place to get into it, although I will (hopefully) take up my objections about your "how it works" section, with you in alt.drugs.chemsitry.

My point was that I don't think your site should be used as a reference when we have pubMed.

and no, the findings I was referring to where not confounded by cannabis use:

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2003 Apr;167(1):85-96. Epub 2003 Mar 11.
Mood, cognition and serotonin transporter availability in current and former ecstasy (MDMA) users.
Thomasius R, Petersen K, Buchert R, Andresen B, Zapletalova P, Wartberg L, Nebeling B, Schmoldt A.

 

[VelocideX]

Suggesting that someone new to the field should use pubmed as their primary reference is lunacy.

When you learn a subject, you do not start with research articles. You start with a textbook. Why reinvent the wheel? There is no need to browse every article ever written on a subject to gain a broad understanding of the topic.

When you learn physics -- such as newton's laws of motion -- do you go to the library and pull out Mathematica Principia? I think not.

Pubmed is obvious a fantastic resource, and the best place to find primary sources, but to gain background information you would first read up on a textbook / other summary, and THEN go looking at primary sources for further information.

What you're saying is tantamount to suggesting we should remove the MDMA FAQ and place a link to pubmed.

This is the POINT of summaries - they collate material!

 

[Dr. Beat]

It's unlikely that neurotoxicity has occurred from the pattern of use you've described... memory problems do become noticeable for many people, especially after heavy use...

I disagree. taking 3 pills in 1 night as he indicated, especially if they are strong pills is defiently a good way to get neurotoxicity, and face it, ALOT of people take pills in an enviroment that INCREASES toxity. Eg. A hot club or rave, dancing for long periods of time, probably listning to banging 4/4 music that gets the adrenaline going (making you hotter), and eating NO food for a LONG period of time, and too many people drink alcohol on pills (increases neurotoxidity), alot of 'ravers' have speed with pills (that increases neurotoxidity alot), and most people not drinking enough water, and SO on.

Sure from what I have read, taking ONE good MDMA pill, in a quiet enviroment (with no music or only chilled music) at home, and eating a bit of fruit occassionally for anti-oxidents, drink enough water, or even COOL green tea (very refreshing if made weakly), and taking NO other drugs that night, and with no more than a few people will not be neurotoxic.

But how many people who take pills do this ? Less than 1% in my opinion.

And before you say it - the brain CAN repair its self with time. The more damage you do, the longer it takes to repair. It is that simple.

 

[VelocideX]

I'm basing my opinion, as I have said, on evidence of long-term heavy-use users and subsequent neuroimaging scans.

There's no doubt that he's experiencing symptoms of some sort of neurological abnormality, but I believe that it will get better with time and abstinence.

Perhaps what I should have said is that I don't think irrepairable damage has occurred.

 

[Alucard_X]

i had a similar usage pattern as yours baileylsd, after about 9months to a year i noticed i was back to normal. and no more random anxiety attacks.

 

[BilZ0r]

Dude, when were we talking about starting a subject? You were talking to me when you referred to thedea.org.