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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Needle Park, Zurich

Fuck sake. Cunts can't read my original post properly. There was absolutely no implication whatsoever that these people were scumbags because of their heroin use. Jesus.

I don't look down on other drug users because of their drug of choice but I admittedly do look down on a lot of the local smackheads because they are scumbags. Just to make it clear, they are not scumbags because they use heroin, they are scumbags who happen to also use heroin.

There it is re-quoted. Fucking read it. Fuck knows why this post caused such an uproar.
 
Uproar might be too strong a word, PTC, I see it as trying to point out how you're being silly in the hope you won't be silly again.

What it comes down to is you know some scumbags. Why you choose to introduce this information on a thread concerned with intelligent ways to address the drug problem is your business. If posters interpret it as your somehow connecting scumbag behaviour to using heroin, that's theirs. Can't really see angry headlines in 'The Sun' on the matter, can you?


[EDIT] And, strictly speaking, that's not the 'original post'. In the original, you decry heroin prescribing by the NHS on the grounds addicts don't really need their heroin. That's the point with which I take issue. Whether your schoolyard acquaintances are scumbags or not is quite irrelevant.
 
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I don't understand how I was being silly. It was simply a thought that entered my head as I was typing "I don't look down on other drug users because of their drug of choice". As I was typing that I thought that I do in fact look down on practically every smackhead that I personally know, but the reason is not because they are smackheads it is because they are horrible cunts. I even pointed that out in the second sentence with the intention of clarifying the first sentence & avoiding this misunderstanding of what I was originally saying.

Even now you don't seem to realise that you misunderstood what I was saying & think that I was "being silly". When I wasn't. I was simply stating a fact.
 
Aaagh! I'm tempted to give up and allow you the last word - you'll never get a crackhead to change his mind and all that. But, really, I misunderstood nothing and your argument was ill thought-out to the point of silliness, regardless of the subsequent qualifications and attempts to redefine the issue.

Originally, you said heroin prescription should, at best, only be for a very short period because users didn't need heroin. Some may be scumbags but that's neither here nor there. Perhaps any further discussion could address whether you still believe this.
 
I actually agreed with a lot of your arguments against what I had originally said re heroin prescriptions. I previously mentioned this. I still don't quite think heroin should be prescribed long term.

My comment regarding some individual local arseholes had fuck all to do with that though.

Edit about your edit in the previous post - Does every post in every thread have to relate to that person's first post in that thread? The post regarding local smackheads had absolutely fuck all to do with my views on the prescribing of heroin. You need to look at the context of people's comments & what they are being said in reply to.
 
The best thing about all this is Charlie actually thinks that PTCH is actually a real Crackhead !!

You mean he isn't! And there I was going easy because the poor fella's on the pipe. Isn't that an offence under the Trades Description Act? Nick him for wasting nodding time.

And, if not as part of a complex rock delusion involving microscopic bugs under the skin and police ones everywhere from the phone to the quiche lorraine, I can't imagine where he gets the idea BL threads occasionally wander away from the original topic. Quite extraordinary. Next you'll tell me Rockstar really isn't and the Bigman is 5'2".
 
http://www.popcenter.org/library/Cri...04-Killias.pdf


Has alot of info about the swiss model and its evolution from enforcement, to open air, to heroin trials.

Had a good norwegian article but the link is dead.

Sorry I havent been around, busy at work.


You mean he isn't! And there I was going easy because the poor fella's on the pipe. Isn't that an offence under the Trades Description Act? Nick him for wasting nodding time.

I know my friend, and I was trying to win him over with news of swiss cocaine maintenance trials and safe crack smoking rooms.=D

You are in:swissinfo.ch » home » archive » Doctors push for cocaine prescription
Jun 3, 2004 - 14:19
Doctors push for cocaine prescription
Image Caption: Could doctors one day be prescribing cocaine? (swissinfo C Helmle)Related Stories
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Swiss youths turn to alcohol and drugs
Hard drugs use on the rise
The vicious circle of drug dependency

A national conference on cocaine has discussed whether the drug should be prescribed to long-term addicts.
Switzerland has had a programme of heroin prescription for the most hardened addicts for ten years and some doctors believe cocaine addicts could benefit from a similar treatment.



But others have their doubts. Officials from the Federal Health Office are especially concerned about the political impact of introducing cocaine prescription.

There are an estimated 90,000 cocaine users in Switzerland. However, most of them use the drug only on a recreational basis and would not be included in any prescription programme.

The conference, which ended in Bern on Friday, brought together Switzerland’s leading addiction specialists, as well as officials from the Health Office.


" The mortality risk among [cocaine addicts] is quite high. Without treatment many of them will die in the next 10 years. "
Daniel Meili, doctor
Multiple dependencies
Daniel Meili, who heads Zurich’s heroin programme, says a typical candidate for cocaine prescription would be an addict with multiple dependencies.

“Of the 150 heroin patients I have here, perhaps a third of them could also benefit from cocaine prescription,” Meili told swissinfo. “They come here to get the heroin, but they are also addicted to cocaine, which they buy on the illegal market.”

“They can spend between SFr10,000-20,000 a month to feed their habit, which means they are often involved in crime.”

Supporters of the programme point to evidence that patients on the heroine scheme have improved health and more stable lifestyles, including proper accommodation and even regular work.

But Meili says that patients who continue to be addicted to cocaine don’t reap any of these benefits.



High mortality
“The mortality risk among these patients is quite high,” he said. “Without treatment, many of them will die in the next ten years.”

But Switzerland’s Federal Health Office is not convinced that introducing cocaine prescription is the answer.

“There’s just no evidence that such a scheme would be successful,” said Markus Jann, head of the drug addiction department.

“We would be very hesitant about trying such a thing, and anyhow we have more important addictions to tackle, such as alcohol or tobacco.”

The Swiss government also feels that this is not the ideal time politically to start talking about something as controversial as cocaine prescription.

Later this month parliament is due to vote on a much-delayed revision of Switzerland’s narcotics law, which if approved, would decriminalise cannabis.

The Federal Health Office – which spent months drafting the legislation and lobbying for it – fears that a rash move towards cocaine prescription could encourage opposition to the law.

But Thomas Zeltner, the department’s director, recently said there would no legal impediment in the way of a pilot project of cocaine prescription. This is a softening of his earlier position, when he insisted cocaine would never be prescribed in Switzerland.


" We have more important addictions to tackle, such as alcohol or tobacco. "
Markus Jann, Swiss Federal Health Office
Financial support
Ultimately the decision on a pilot project rests with cantonal authorities. In Zurich there is strong support for such a scheme, although officials there had been hoping for some financial support from the government.

“If Zurich wants to try, we won’t be against it,” Jann told swissinfo. “We will follow it with interest, but there’s no reason for us to finance it.”

“There are many different options for treating cocaine addiction without working with cocaine itself. We haven’t tried everything yet.”

At the conference, Zurich doctors and social workers are expected to unveil a plan for a trial project of prescription involving around 20 patients.

Half of them would be people already on heroin prescription who remain addicted to cocaine, and the other half would be very heavy cocaine users whose health is seriously at risk.

“Obviously it would run in a similar way to heroin prescription,” explained Athos Staub, president of ARUD, a group dedicated to reducing the risks of drug taking.



Party drug
“Just because cocaine is called the party drug doesn’t mean we’d be handing it out on a Saturday night. People would have to come to us and take the drug at our centre,” Staub continued.

Both Staub and Meili are insist that cocaine prescription is worth trying.

“People said ten years ago that heroin prescription wouldn’t work,” said Meili. “In fact it has helped a lot of people.”

“Over the past ten years the problems with cocaine have been getting worse, and based on what I see now, I think legal prescription of cocaine could… help people to live rather than to die.”

swissinfo, Imogen Foulkes

Audio & Podcasts"In Bern they're trying to get people away from cocaine."

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In brief
Switzerland has had a heroin prescription programme for 10 years.

There is evidence that patients on the scheme have improved health and more stable lifestyles.

Some doctors, especially in Zurich, would now like to try cocaine prescription, but the Swiss government is reluctant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Key facts
The price of cocaine is falling all over Europe while the rate of cocaine addiction is rising.
In 2003 drug related crimes rose by almost 6% in Switzerland.
194 people died from drug overdoses last year, 27 more than in 2002.

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LinksARUD (German)
Swiss Federal Health Office
Youth without Drugs

Join our 120,000 fans on Facebook.


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http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Doctors_push_for_cocaine_prescription.html?cid=3918910
 
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" We have more important addictions to tackle, such as alcohol and tobacco..(but)..if Zurich wants to try [cocaine prescription], we won't be against it."

Can you imagine a similar press release from the DOH?

Compared to the Swiss, we're primitives. How'd that happen?
 
having just returned from norway,i was surprised to find that they to have opened a supervised injection room,open to all.i beleive this was a response to the amount of open air injecting in the area where the drugs are sold which was truly out of hand.
 
As a wise man once said, what is is what's meant to be. Or, in simpler terms, you get what you deserve. Keep up the good fight, jspun, but remember you battle not only powerful established interests but the overwhelming apathy of our own.

Alas, jspun, BLers remain stubbornly resistant to any post over half a paragraph long. Serious threads just don't seem to be their bag. Kids today eh? All Facebook and the attention span of a gnat on ketamine. Let's hope they're allowed to grow out of it.

Ironic it falls to an American to provide details of the Rolleston System. I once asked a drug 'keyworker' what she thought of Rolleston and she told me she had a childhood crush on Charlie Watts.

Readers of this thread ( hopefully, the quality compensates for a lack of quantity) who are in treatment may want to raise the subject with their own 'keys'. Note 'almost no sales of illicit opiates or cocaine occurred' during the 40 years of Rolleston. With 300,000+ criminal addicts, 40.000 or so prisoners in for drug-related offences and the malign influence of the 'drug gangs' evident to any inner city estate resident, the decision to abandon it must retrospectively rank among the most disastrous policy decisions of modern history.

Frankly, I believe our society has suffered for the fantasies of opiophobic. moralising morons long enough. How they still have the gall to claim credibility - and a propaganda-saturated public is duped into allowing them to retain any - is beyond me. It's time to send them packing and return to the sanity of The British System. Change will only come from the bottom up and you who can should speak out now.

Just wanted to bring to light the stuff that got my goat Charlie, it seems that you think if you bury the little snipes away under a mountain of text they won't be seen, well i saw them .

I know you have your hands full with SHM atm , but after calling me Poseur , you didn't even have the time to read my response cos if you had , you would know that i have welsh blood.

Peace
 
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Where's the beef? Unless you're saying we in treatment aren't unpolitical and apathetic? Note the 'we'. I knew nothing at all about how it all worked until a learn or die option was forced on me. Doesn't make me clever. Just unfortunate.

Please appreciate the difference between playing with personas - posing, if you like - in hope of purpose and real life. Actors who play Eastenders or Corrie villains risk getting thumped on the tube by folk don't see what's real and whats an act. In real life, we both come from a long underclass lineage, your dla means you probably earn more money than me, your achievements appear greater and our day-to-day lives more or less the same. So I'm not sure where you get this idea I think I'm 'better' than you. Don't take this the wrong way but did you approve of ripping Pete Doherty because you thought he was 'larging it'? I only ask because I once held a grudge against Keith Moon for similar reasons till I appreciated it was to do with me, not him.

Likewise, if you think a 'key worker' is the person best qualified to deal with my 'issues', well, that's between you and you. As you say, what's "real" is half your mates at the clinic being killed or maimed by your bad doctor; without the perseverance of some pretty cracked actors, we'd have lost more than one here.

And, yes, I do notice your posts and know you're Welsh. I'm sorry if the 'if' reference was inadequate to deal with the complexities of internet images. Or specious; there was no offence intended. There's only me, my imagination and the computer; the only person I mock or denigrate is myself. I thought I'd made that clear when accused of slagging the Scots. Call me Charlie Brown.

Honest, man, I've nothing to prove. But we're already dancing in the dark and, if obliged to tread on eggshells, we'll never learn that fandango. Our points of agreement are far stronger than petty quibbles. In the same boat, you might say, charting direction. It's not each other we fight for control of the rudder and I'll be more careful in the future. Happy birthday, you sensitive old soul, may there be plenty more to come.
 
My Mate ripped Docherty btw not me i was just their.
Charlie i think your really important to this forum & some of your knowledge is really valid but stuff like,
Alas, jspun, BLers remain stubbornly resistant to any post over half a paragraph long. Serious threads just don't seem to be their bag. Kids today eh? All Facebook and the attention span of a gnat on ketamine. Let's hope they're allowed to grow out of it.
i mean who are you aiming that at n why ? To me it came across a tad unpleasant

I also admire your commitment to the British sytsem something i am more than familiar with, why did it fuk up ?
People abused it .

last all this demand a DM script , come on you of everyone should know that the only Drugs licensed by the NHS are Subs N Methadone , what doc in his right nind is going to risk it ?
None in this day and age , mine has all the required licences abnd creds but , why would he risk it , hes maverick as it is and i 'm grate full to be in his care .

End of the day we both would like more humane treatment but its past that now & one has to get what they can.
Sad as it is.

Thanx for the Birthday wishes , and i'm sure that you would rather bring up my greviances than just procrastinate.

I think you should know a little about me n how i was brought up , then you will be able to understand where i come from.
 
It certainly wasn't aimed at you, birthday boy, you read even the longest of jspun's vignettes. Think it was more a comment on how his excellent thread earned about a tenth of the views of 'my biggest bogie' type efforts. One of my earliest posts, into which I'd put some fair effort, was airily dismissed as tl;dr. Maybe I'm still smarting but I suspect jspun suffers a similar fate.

As for Treatment, I'd be the first to disillusion any newcomer hoping for a diamorphine script. But there are a lot of 'key' and other drug workers who seem under greater illusions. Like, for example, they 'help'. At best, the state gives people a methadone dependency they didn't previously have and then 'helps' them to give it up. Terrific. And we users, polite folk or certainly inclined to the path of least resistance, can unknowingly add to these illusions-cum-delusions. Owt is better than nowt and nobody on a comedown is going to turn down something, like meth, that takes away the withdrawal symptoms. And, the way they structure the thing, we don't confess to scoring on top lest we're 'punished'. So a false picture appears.

Now, 'new user' numbers are down. You and I know this is because of the low quality of what's available on the street. Elements within treatment think it's because of their 'recovery' agenda. It might help if 'clients' took the trouble to set them straight. Although, to be honest, I think the whole thing's gone so far that every drug user in the country could tell their 'keys' clearly and succinctly where it's really at and it wouldn't make an iota of difference; there's an unspoken agenda of corporate interests and a horrible psychology at work here. The best for which we can hope is for decent dope to return to the streets. Then user numbers would go right up again and the reformers can go in for the kill.

But, yeah, let it all be out front. Like I say, when the boat's rudderless, all hands are needed on deck. "We're all in this together." Enjoy the rest of your day, sailor. ( as in boat, not to impugn your sexuality:))
 
Bold One
having just returned from norway,i was surprised to find that they to have opened a supervised injection room,open to all.i beleive this was a response to the amount of open air injecting in the area where the drugs are sold which was truly out of hand.

Thanks for sharing this piece of info Mr. Bold. I had an excellent Norweigian article from a media outlet based in that country that was translated into English by the English Google translation tool but now it is a broken link. The Swiss experience was discussed at length and in a balanced light. The People of Norway have had a large by Scandanavian standard, heroin scene and injection rooms seemed to be not too far off. Despite the Scandanavian world (sans Denmark's) peopesity to support draconian abstinence only policies, it is refreshing that Oslo is able to make the pragmatic and intellectual leap. For the record (though I believe not an EU member) Norway is booming economically despite their policies compared to say Greece with its Draconian measures- yet another society that didn't fall apart thanks to harm reduction.

Brimz
Happy belated birthday!
You are familiar with California, my home state. The newest blow to harm reduction is that both federal and local authorities are going after cannabis dispensaries despite campaign promises to the contrary, well "Tin Soldiers and Obama's Comming, were finally on our own.":( But at long last, this country seems to be waking from its slumber of apathy.) But politicians are the same in most places-lying fucks, there are just less of them in places like Switzerland, Norway, and a few other countries. Our exception is Ron Paul,MD, Republican presedential canadate and Congressman from Texas. I'm afraid to say that he is too intelligent for the average brainwashed Seppo, more so for the average republican. He's platform includes legalizing all drugs on principle and avoiding foreign entanglements- not very popular subjects calculated to get you elected. Such concepts are not self evident but are "Anathema to these idiots".

Charlie
It certainly wasn't aimed at you, birthday boy, you read even the longest of jspun's vignettes. Think it was more a comment on how his excellent thread earned about a tenth of the views of 'my biggest bogie' type efforts. One of my earliest posts, into which I'd put some fair effort, was airily dismissed as tl;dr. Maybe I'm still smarting but I suspect jspun suffers a similar fate.

As for Treatment, I'd be the first to disillusion any newcomer hoping for a diamorphine script. But there are a lot of 'key' and other drug workers who seem under greater illusions. Like, for example, they 'help'. At best, the state gives people a methadone dependency they didn't previously have and then 'helps' them to give it up. Terrific. And we users, polite folk or certainly inclined to the path of least resistance, can unknowingly add to these illusions-cum-delusions. Owt is better than nowt and nobody on a comedown is going to turn down something, like meth, that takes away the withdrawal symptoms. And, the way they structure the thing, we don't confess to scoring on top lest we're 'punished'. So a false picture appears.

I get tl;dr all the time Charlie. I've certainly enjoyed your posts and share your frustration! Anyway, I'm a big fan of "life suspended, madness of UK drug- treatment." Would like to post it here with your permission. One point that you made is that, "As 'The History of the Brtish System' tactfully puts it, 'a determined few have, in the absence of contrary voice, exercised undue influence'." In Switzerland and in the Realm, in Vancouver, BC, Canada, the disenting voice of the people have restored the drug policies of those countries into a semblance of sanity.

Charlie Clean
But, yeah, let it all be out front. Like I say, when the boat's rudderless, all hands are needed on deck. "We're all in this together."

I agree with all my heart. We are the enlightened few resistant to 100 years of international brainwashing. It may take years but the only chance that we have at changing public conciousness and public policy regarding drugs is to provide a United Front Internationally. Our movement is grassroots and solidarity is key.
 
(I'm too lazy to go back and look) but I certainly could have posted a tl;dr in here as some good natured ribbing - I have read and enjoyed everything that has been posted in here.

and Brimz, I don't think the situation is a dismal as you make it out to be. I can't speak for the Euros, but here in America, there are actually a fair number of doctors, (maybe 1% or less) that will Rx opiates to chronic users because they know that it works better than ORT, and with a clean pharmaceutical supply, there is a good chance of functioning like a normal human being.

I am a chronic pain patient and I recently just came correct with my doctor and told him I was injecting my Dilaudid, and instead of being a complete prick about it, he just switched me to injectable dilaudid ampules. Fuck yeah. But the point being that many doctors realize that they are working within a system that is corrupt and wrong in the way it addresses these public health issues, and they are going to do their best to practice medicine as they see fit.

EDIT: and even though it is hella disappointing that Obamer outright lied about not closing medical marijuana dispensaries, I don't think that at this point they can put the cat back in the bag. I mean, 15 states have MMJ, and I am in Colorado where it is so entrenched that they could never root it out. When you have professionals like myself, my boss, lawyers, judges, doctors, etc.. using MMJ, busting those people will result in a proverbial shitstorm for the politicians who enable it. It is fucked up that some people have much more sway in the political process, especially those with classic professional jobs, but I honestly don't see "the man" busting me or the 4 other people who work at my firm (I'm an architect) who are on MMJ, or being successful in busting the dispensary we go to, because (as sad as it is) there is a huge difference between fucking with someone's life who works in the service industry for example (no disrespect at all) and someone who works at a job perceived as a traditional profession who has a hella-good lawyer on retainer and the motivation, drive, and egotism to fight the system.

My mother is a probation officer, and I remember growing up getting in blow-out fights about drugs, but the last time she ever hassled me about it, she just said, You can never position yourself as against the system and be successful, you have to infiltrate the system and change it from the inside." which is what I've done my best to do. Little did my fellow students at that rich private school, or now in my professional life, know that I am against everything they hold to be self-evident.

And people can change - now when I visit my parents in Denver, I usually hit up the pot shop, and my mom will leave me coupons and shit, and when I get back she always wants to check out what I got, smell it, see what it's like and how weed as changed, and she is even cool with me giving my pops weed to smoke now, although apparently the 25% THC shit I get is still not as good as "Thai Stick" or "Colombian Gold" from the 70's although I don't know if I believe all that.
 
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Although, to be honest, I think the whole thing's gone so far that every drug user in the country could tell their 'keys' clearly and succinctly where it's really at and it wouldn't make an iota of difference; there's an unspoken agenda of corporate interests and a horrible psychology at work here. The best for which we can hope is for decent dope to return to the streets. Then user numbers would go right up again and the reformers can go in for the kill.

But, yeah, let it all be out front. Like I say, when the boat's rudderless, all hands are needed on deck. "We're all in this together." Enjoy the rest of your day, sailor. ( as in boat, not to impugn your sexuality:)) withdrawal symptoms. And, the way they structure the thing, we don't confess to scoring on top lest we're 'punished'.

i always telll my key everything , what he then tells his boss is another thing , as i may have mentioned he is a friend that i knew before & used to go to the pub with .
 
Yes, that's how it falls down. We don't run into any Drug Service Provider board members or Andrew Lansley down the pub. If you work for them, you tend not to tell them what you know they don't want to hear. If you're not paid for it, it's too a huge a hustle, we've better things to do. Little victories, to educate, chip away where you can and to sneak the idea in under the threshold are the best for which we can hope. Bit by bit, beavers can change the course of the river .
 
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