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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Needle Park, Zurich

parttime crackhead said:
They only need it after they have became addicted to it though. Therefore, break the addiction & break the need (easier said than done right enough). They don't just have a natural need for heroin.
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There you go with that 'sign of the times' thing where everyone's talking about 'they'. You could make the same argument about anti-depressants but wouldn't ban them from NHS prescription. It not easy to appreciate how, and how often, our minds are made up for, not by us.
 
Eh? I don't get your anti-depressant comparison.

Is there really anyone out there who starts taking heroin that isn't at least slightly aware of it's potential danger? It's a bit different than taking something because your GP has told you to. My GP prescribed me anti-depressants & told me absolutely fuck all about them, I had to find out for myself that they weren't a good idea - a lot of people would have assumed them to be perfectly safe as the GP did not indicate otherwise, therefore I would ban NHS anti-depressant prescriptions if they are handed out to people without any proper advice. However, that is surely not the case with heroin. Everyone has heard of heroin, everyone at least knows a bit about it, certainly more than "GPs favourite random anti-dep of the week". No-one is taking heroin thinking "This is a perfectly safe, non-addictive drug." if they are then they are unbelievably fucking stupid & shouldn't really be allowed to pollute the gene pool any further. People clearly are at least partially aware of the potential risks & either decide that they don't care or fall into the "Aye, but it won't happen to me" trap.

Would it make you feel better if I replaced "they" with "heroin addicts"? What difference does it really make? You know what/who I'm referring to & it's not like I'm writing "dirty smackheads" or "junkie scum".
 
No, you miss the point. It's not the 'they' implies prejudice - although the 'polluting the gene' pool comment comes close - it's more the presumption of a group who are all the same, unlike you but for whom you've somehow have the capacity to make decisions. No heroin addict is the same, no more than every black man, traveler, crack user or passenger on the 32 bus.

OK, you'd ban anti-depressants as well. What about hepatitis C treatment? Nobody needs to share needles or engage in bloody sex with infected persons. STDs? HIV? Many people are celibate, I believe it's fashionable among the religious. Certainly, no-one needs to fuck, any more than they need to take drugs. No retrovirals on PTC's NHS either. But you could buy all these and a long list of other 'unnecessary' drugs over the counter if you can afford them. Part time crackhead, full time capitalist?

Think, man. Way you outline your manifesto, I'd sure hesitate before voting for you come the election.
 
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Thanks all for the lively conversation and PTC, you make a good counterpoint argument. I think that what the majority of Blers believe is that the system has failed. You can look at the case of heroin or cocaine sold on the free market or leave the solution in the hands of the medical esteblishment, either scenario is superior to the curent state of afairsPTC

PTC, a theory is being developed and advanced here, based on some scientific evidence that affect (depressive and anxiety disorders have an opioid component.) This has been confirmed by experiential evidence throughout the world, BL being a great repository for such information. Just read the old heroin drought threads and the attendant suffering that resulted when heroin was missing. Sam, a mod on this forum confirms what we have all seen, that in predisposed individuals, the ability to lead a fulfilling life without opiates is suboptimal.

Now we get on the topic, and you made a good argument, junkies, knowing the hazards of gear bear some of the reposibility. What if i told you that it is my experience that many junkies felt insecure, depressed, anxious, grey all their lives and after many attempts at conventional agents, found heroin, if they were lucky.

Now a last question is should hard drugs (ie heroin or cocaine, be provided by the free market.) It is my opinion that in the US this is a fabulous idead, tax em', ect...still provide them at a discount compared to the black market.

Now in the UK, under Rolleston, and the information provided by my friend Charlie, the NHS had a good system going and hroin, cocaine, amphetamine, ect... maintenance makes sense. PTC, who was the brit that went through South America and found coke bars in Bolivia, peru, ect (The Spade, I think...he intimated that their is a huge difference b/w pure and cut coke.

Listen to Charlie and a few other posters, they know what they are talking about. And if an individual's Drug of Chioce isn't the same as yours, i urge tolerance and solidarity. Look there is only a few of us and they wan't us divided. But to quote a yank (well subject of his majesty before independence), "we either hang together or invariably we'll hang seperately."

I don't know how to put it any other way, so join us in our crusade for harm reduction. And lets reach out to places like Australia, NZ, ect...were a tweaker (methamphetamine) is acceptable, "chique" but a heroin addict is low life scum...Its just a matter of education...they might not listen to us seppos but fellow cousin subjects of her majesty are more influential...before you kown it we have a world wide movement.

Charlie
It's up to you to decide which you think is more sensible. Under the old Rolleston system, people gave up their heroin scripts on average sooner than they do their black market habits/state sponsored methadone today. If you leave it to the individual to choose, and don't kick him into a 'law of opposition' by pushing your will onto him, everything happens naturally, as it should
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PTC or however, you read the powepoint presentation about heroin maintenance from the University of Geneva, and there is a study showing 1/3 of the people moving on to drug or heroin free treatment modalities. These arent scewed studies, the Swiss wouldn't benefit, but the people voted for heroin maintenance wilst rejecting cannabis legality. Now in this state, CA, they are fucking with our right for medical MJ. WANT TO FIGHT THESE BASTARDS WORLDWIDE, LET US PRESENT A GLOBALLY UNITED FRONT UNDERMINDED BY PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS.
 
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Aye fair does, I agree with most of both your posts & disagree with some. I can't really be arsed anymore. I don't know enough about successful trials or different systems & certainly don't have the motivation or desire to research them so I'll leave it there, I learned some stuff at least.

The only thing I want to pick you up on is the solidarity thing. A good point was made about all heroin users/addicts being different, this applies to the wider group of "drug users" as well. I'm not standing in solidarity with other people just because they happen to use illegal drugs of some sort. I don't really care enough if I'm honest. I'd like to see all drugs legal purely because I think it's ridiculous that they are illegal in the first place but do I really give that much of a fuck about the ones I don't personally use? No, I'm a bit selfish lol. Make weed & MDMA legal & I'd be happy, I wouldn't bother my arse about the rest, it would be a bonus but not one I'd put any effort or time in to.
 
C'mon, no-one would; the idea of organised smack or crackheads is plain oxymoronic.

But it was forty odd years since a bunch of hi-profiles signed the Times advert calling for the legalisation of marijuana and ain't shit changed yet. Well, a de facto legalisation in the name of 'social policing' means that most possession cases are now settled with a caution, the legal equivilant of a ticking off by teacher. But it's not in consequence of lobbying from any 'organisation' but as a matter of administrative and social convenience. Small to middle level pot dealers have never had it so good; their chances of apprehension are minimal because the police are busy who heroin traffickers who didn't exist under Rolleston. Who's going to march?

Strikes in the overworld are the same; you never saw that librarian marching for the dockers. The drug laws and a whole lot more are pure nuts. We all think nutty most of the time, because, like apes, we imitate. It's nutty how one category of drug user will look down one on another, potheads on LSD freaks, acid fans on smackheads, heroin users on crackheads and so on down to Millhouse Farted. Divide and conquer, we're all pawns in a game we do not understand. It's nutty how we all hold opinions over things about which we simply do not know, as if we're somehow diminished if we don't have a role to play and a chance to assert. Know yourself, just like the man said, and take it outward from there. It's nutty I'm wasting time on this at 3 in the morning, let's allow jspun to take us back to Switzerland.
 
Not at all. I don't know the Big Issue seller & they're normally fairly sound. I've often gave the guy near my work a fiver for one.

Like I said, I look down on these particular local smackheads because I know that they are scumbags. I went to school with half of them lol. It's not because of how they look or what drugs they take, it's because of who they are.
 
Now you touch on another of the great heroin ironies. Badassess turn to heroin because it's what the paper says badasses are supposed to do. Maybe they're impressed by heroin chic, which they may understand as cheek. Consequently, you've Dalrymple and other commentators presuming the criminal comes before the addict and liberalsation is pointless because users will still be thieving bastards. And the kind of argument that says, as methadone clinics didn't stop burglaries on the Wirral, their existence serves no purpose.

Me, I was as dishonest as the next man before I discovered heroin but only took to breaking the law when there was money left to pay the black-market junk bills. Since my script, I've stayed legal immaculate. As indeed have all the other once-recidivist diamorphine scriptees in this town. Make of it what you will; for most people, if a 'fact' doesn't fit their preconceived ideas, it doesn't exist.

If they're not alcoholics, I thought all Big Issue sellers were bagheads. You live and learn
 
PTC, to quote chalrlie
Me, I was as dishonest as the next man before I discovered heroin but only took to breaking the law when there was money left to pay the black-market junk bills. Since my script, I've stayed legal immaculate. As indeed have all the other once-recidivist diamorphine scriptees in this town. Make of it what you will; for most people, if a 'fact' doesn't fit their preconceived ideas, it doesn't exist.
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I cant speak to heroin addict/opiate addict in the UK. But, to generalize ( which isn't beyong the realm of possibilty, heroin cultures suprisingly have alot in common- whether heroin or opium. FYI, A)it is hard to generalize and have known both poor, middle class, and heorin addicts that came from wealthy familiies here in San Diego, (addicts have alot in common, the addicts from wealthier backgrounds tend to do better.) And B.) all addicts seem to benefit from the most redimentary of HR (methadone primarily.) And C.) you don' have crystal methamphetamine users to provide a worse bogeyman,

You want buds and MDMA to be legalized or decrimninalized. You, I believe don't opposse the legalization of all drugs out of principle, yet regard opiate addicts as scum bags. In the bid cities, heroin addicts in CA are found among the young and beautiful, in parts of the UK and Eire, I get the impressions this is thee case in Big Cities.

In South Africa, E and Dagga are the drugs of the well off, though Tik (meth), heroin, methaqualone (mandrax), are the drug of the working class.

The point is that if we come together and agitate to legalize drugs then we'll have a better chance of accomplishing it. WERE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT.

You know PTC, the Swiss considered legalizing coke, the heroin is Rx but the coke still, though combos are common place, but I haven't heard coke going Rx. By the way, the Swiss have expiremented with MDMA, cannabis, LSD, ect...despite alittle world condemnation.

Me, I was as dishonest as the next man before I discovered heroin but only took to breaking the law when there was money left to pay the black-market junk bills. Since my script, I've stayed legal immaculate. As indeed have all the other once-recidivist diamorphine scriptees in this town. Make of it what you will; for most people, if a 'fact' doesn't fit their preconceived ideas, it doesn't exist.
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Man, that is as good a tastement to the benefits of diamorph Rx as I've ever heard.

I'll look for Swiss cocaine Rx sxploration- probably have one listed, but I'll look for a good one.
 
jspun said:
You want buds and MDMA to be legalized or decrimninalized. You, I believe don't opposse the legalization of all drugs out of principle, yet regard opiate addicts as scum bags.
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I started reading your post then I stopped as soon as I read that sentence. Go back & read properly any post where I have mentioned the word "scumbag".
 
PTH you made an intrasting observation, in plastic southern CA, the heroin users are upper middle class individuals that got strung out on gear- mostly anoying- fuckheads- still your brothers and sisters on a bigger stage. I can commisarate, but that set is full of hot birds, to use your venacular, I'm just saying that people that use acid, ket, GHB, research chems, coacaine, amphetamine SO4, methaphetamine HCl, mephedrone, ect, ect...and cannabis of course- were all brothers and sisters, even as far as the much globally maligned PCP which is alittle over demonized (so what else is new?)
 
PTH
Like I said, I look down on these particular local smackheads because I know that they are scumbags. I went to school with half of them lol. It's not because of how they look or what drugs they take, it's because of who they are.
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post # 69, its nice that your revising your opinion PTC!
 
Crack - keeps you coming back for more.

But not from me, PTC, let's return the thread to where it belongs. Regardless of your own experience with drug-using individuals, an intelligent prescribing policy benefits not only lessens the 'outsider' plight of dependents and makes it possible for them to live decent lives but also benefits the wider society at large.

Unlike crack, heroin does not inspire violence or criminal activity - quite the contrary - but a need for money to buy extortionately priced black market product as all that's available can and does. Don't let the detail that already thieving bastards might take the drug confuse the argument. If in doubt, look at the quite-staggering figures that have emerged from the Swiss experiment. Then tell your MP. Keep on rocking in Freedonia.
 
Yep, and I know some scumbags who use the 32 bus. And scumbags who are hooked on the football.

All clear, end of discussion and no more panic in needle park?

But good to see jspun getting the replies.
 
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