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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Needle Park, Zurich

Maybe I'll post the practical method for practical methaqualone synth from cheapskates receipe in Rhodium in one of my posts to test the mods reading comprehesion ability- wonder if that would slip through, burried in the posts.=D

If you work at it you can get a lot past the censors in one way or another. I've no doubt that you'd succeed so long as you didn't do anything to make it obvious to the oblivious like using italics or
Of course some (I trust this spirit still flourishes) would read it & then deliberately forget they read it.
 
B9
If you work at it you can get a lot past the censors in one way or another. I've no doubt that you'd succeed so long as you didn't do anything to make it obvious to the oblivious like using italics or
similar
Of course some (I trust this spirit still flourishes) would read it & then deliberately forget they read it.

I hear you B9 but I was just messing around. Once i did post Cheapstakes' methaqualone receipe and when my thread was closed I protested ( this was like my 3rd or forth post as a Greenlighter and I argued how my first ammendment rights were being infringed on.8( Then Felix reminded me that BL isn't America=D, what an ass I was back then. But I have posted some things through the years, epic stories about Terroir and Cannabis, a Connoiseurs guide to opium (which they were gonna close down b/c it didn't conform to harm reduction but my polite appeal prevented its closing and then I got some interesting info from Salon magazine confirming that a connoiseurs niche for opium existed. But anyway, a serious student of HR requires a braod understanding of the topic, especially breakthrough legislation or theought over the last 30 or more years to know were we are going from and were we come from. Again I enjoyed your contribution- but some of the rules have to have rationales- my argument is that the BL rulling elite should trust the BL community because by joining by definition were special in our cognitive ability/ our ability to have an open mind.

But i've had the censors ignore things only to find they were taboo on other forums (universally).

At any rate, again B9, I appreciate your contributions and hope you like this thread.
 
Ironic it falls to an American to provide details of the Rolleston System. I once asked a drug 'keyworker' what she thought of Rolleston and she told me she had a childhood crush on Charlie Watts.

Readers of this thread ( hopefully, the quality compensates for a lack of quantity) who are in treatment may want to raise the subject with their own 'keys'. Note 'almost no sales of illicit opiates or cocaine occurred' during the 40 years of Rolleston. With 300,000+ criminal addicts, 40.000 or so prisoners in for drug-related offences and the malign influence of the 'drug gangs' evident to any inner city estate resident, the decision to abandon it must retrospectively rank among the most disastrous policy decisions of modern history.

Frankly, I believe our society has suffered for the fantasies of opiophobic. moralising morons long enough. How they still have the gall to claim credibility - and a propaganda-saturated public is duped into allowing them to retain any - is beyond me. It's time to send them packing and return to the sanity of The British System. Change will only come from the bottom up and you who can should speak out now.
 
Ironic it falls to an American to provide details of the Rolleston System. I once asked a drug 'keyworker' what she thought of Rolleston and she told me she had a childhood crush on Charlie Watts.

My first grin of the morning. Thank you.

jspun said:
Maybe I'll post the practical method for practical methaqualone synth from cheapskates receipe in Rhodium in one of my posts to test the mods reading comprehesion ability- wonder if that would slip through, burried in the posts.

Ah, jspun.

I have a lot of time for you and there is indeed wisdom and erudition in some of your posts; not that I agree with all that you say, especially some of the more speculative elements.

The reading comprehension skills of the mods here are fine, thank you, and we're all capable of reading beyond a paragraph. The problem is your spacing of such, on the occasions that you do make the effort to space.

We're dealing with a medium geared towards the concise, and as we're also working with backlit computer screens and not poring over dusty tomes by candlelight there's a massive difference. Check your favourite journals in print and then online and notice the different approaches to layout, even though the content may be entirely the same. There's a reason for that which I'm sure upon reflection you'll appreciate.

Or we could plump for the alternative we discussed between staff of billing you for every pack of painkillers you've cost us after bravely scaling your walls of text. Your choice. ;)

I hope you take my comments in the same spirit as I took yours - a friendy jest, nothing more. :)
 
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B9
my argument is that the BL rulling elite should trust the BL community because by joining by definition were special in our cognitive ability/ our ability to have an open mind.

But i've had the censors ignore things only to find they were taboo on other forums (universally).

At any rate, again B9, I appreciate your contributions and hope you like this thread.


I think that you are perhaps special in your cognitive ability & maybe a few others but not everyone has the same spirit maybe.
Some are just downright difficult.

Yes I do like the thread very much - if it weren't for threads such as this EADD would be a poorer place. Crisps & vomit are all very well & this type of stuff brings balance to the force.


Thanks to B9 in particular for posting his impressions living in country a while back during the Platszpitz days

I was there on holiday - a member of my family lived in France & worked in Switzerland.
 
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Lol. All this erudition - and from mods, no less - impacts favourably on the site. Now across the Atlantic, the North American land mass and several time zones to await jspun's riposte.
 
Most moderators on here are really amiable, It is just the ones who close threads and yell at people that get noticed.

and all the credit goes to jspun, all I am doing is posting the link where people will see it.


If all threads were like this, I certainly think bluelight would have less traffic, so although I don't like them either, the chips, vomit, and cider threads get pretty fucking lame, but they do draw traffic here.

Does anyone here in the US or Canadia have experience being maintained on their opiate of choice by a doctor?
 
Sorry. I've been away from this site d/t works commitments.:( Enjoy the commits. For this weeks posts was gonna get slightly off (topic- In the EU, all the same and talk about the history of the Finnish Opiate movement pre-post WWII. I posted it originally in drugs in the media. But it makes a good story, atlest I think.

B9.
I think that you are perhaps special in your cognitive ability & maybe a few others but not everyone has the same spirit maybe.
Some are just downright difficult.

Yes I do like the thread very much - if it weren't for threads such as this EADD would be a poorer place. Crisps & vomit are all very well & this type of stuff brings balance to the force.

When I tink of special I recall my sister-in-law, a special eds teacher that desribed me as "high functioning autistic";) Don't think she ment it as a complement.;)

Muvolution thanks for the kind words. Mt DOC was heroin at one time, un Rxable in the USA yet Florida, I here is still possed of a number of "Pain Clinics" analagous to California, Oregon, Calarado, or Hawaii, medical Canabis dispensaries. They write for Oxy or more likely Opana sice Oxy's remomulation or 8 mG "Dillies" dilaudid- hence the weak heroin marlket in the SE. I has a powerful pharm meds to compete with in places like South Florida, I have heard on BL.

Samhadrine's Grin

Ah, jspun.

I have a lot of time for you and there is indeed wisdom and erudition in some of your posts; not that I agree with all that you say, especially some of the more speculative elements.

The reading comprehension skills of the mods here are fine, thank you, and we're all capable of reading beyond a paragraph. The problem is your spacing of such, on the occasions that you do make the effort to space.

We're dealing with a medium geared towards the concise, and as we're also working with backlit computer screens and not poring over dusty tomes by candlelight there's a massive difference. Check your favourite journals in print and then online and notice the different approaches to layout, even though the content may be entirely the same. There's a reason for that which I'm sure upon reflection you'll appreciate.

Or we could plump for the alternative we discussed between staff of billing you for every pack of painkillers you've cost us after bravely scaling your walls of text. Your choice
Ok, so my average paragraph is a BL page and a half.:\ My spelling ability wouldn't win a spelling bee in North Korea.:\ The mods have been patient in fairness. Remeber, I have received the education of a yank- we didn't originate the English language and my Teachers growing up weren't to keen on teaching English Grammar (which they had a horrible command of themselves...our once model educational system in Califronia staring to go shit in the 70s and 80s.... I would gladdly pay for your pack of painkillers, but only after after Greece's and a few other Eurozone members pull down the value of the Euro and ultimately pull down the value of the Pound...in all faireness all of us are gonna feel the bite of inflation, deflation and currency wars...would billing acccept mexican manufactured meds or ones made in South America as trade for just payments for my most loquacious posts?

Time to learn the art of being laconic.

Charlie Clean
Ironic it falls to an American to provide details of the Rolleston System. I once asked a drug 'keyworker' what she thought of Rolleston and she told me she had a childhood crush on Charlie Watts.

Readers of this thread ( hopefully, the quality compensates for a lack of quantity) who are in treatment may want to raise the subject with their own 'keys'. Note 'almost no sales of illicit opiates or cocaine occurred' during the 40 years of Rolleston. With 300,000+ criminal addicts, 40.000 or so prisoners in for drug-related offences and the malign influence of the 'drug gangs' evident to any inner city estate resident, the decision to abandon it must retrospectively rank among the most disastrous policy decisions of modern history.

Frankly, I believe our society has suffered for the fantasies of opiophobic. moralising morons long enough. How they still have the gall to claim credibility - and a propaganda-saturated public is duped into allowing them to retain any - is beyond me. It's time to send them packing and return to the sanity of The British System. Change will only come from the bottom up and you who can should speak out now.

I only learned about this report from your posts on this thread- peaked my curiosity. If I had a point, its that if this post gets 0ver 1,000 hits but that is enough to make 20 people notice, maybe "lurking", then we the few, enlightened and grassroots, Charlie shall spread the truth, sow the seeds for a brave New World were the "war on drugs" ceases to exists. This may take decades, but like the Fremen in "Dune", the era of Freedom and Sanity regarding drug laws is an Historical inevitability, IMHO maybe a generational thing, but it starts with us and likeminded people, even if our numbers are still small...this is why we got to do the best to present the truth as best we can, or a good story.

Anyway, for this weeks installement, I pulled out what I think is a "good story", as I alluded to in the beginning of this post:

How times have changed. Interesting article about drug use in Finland in the 20th Century,


Finland - a leading consumer of heroin from the 1930s to the 1950s


By Tommi Nieminen

In 1936 Finland, the small republic led by President P.E. Svinhufvud, ranked first in a significant global statistic, higher even than Japan.
In the two decades that followed, more heroin was used per capita in Finland than anywhere else in the world.
In Northern Europe we were really the odd men out. Finnish heroin consumption was many times higher than that of Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland - and just to put that into perspective, we are talking the combined figure of those four countries.
Heroin was in the medicine cabinets of ordinary citizens all the way until the early 1950s - for instance, in the popular cough medicine Pulmo.

It is no wonder that grandmother or grandfather never said anything about this. Heroin was a good medicine.
“The wave of cocaine in Finland in the 1930s, and the amount of heroin consumption in the 1930s, was fairly new and surprising information for myself as well”, said historian Mikko Ylikangas at his office at the Academy of Finland in Sörnäinen.
The 46-year-old Dr. Ylikangas is the programme director at the academy’s Intoxicants and Addiction research programme. On Wednesday, a book of his will be published. It is the first overall review of the use of hard drugs in Finland from the 19th century to the 1950s.

For the book, Ylikangas dug through hospitals’ patient archives, as well as war archives, and the archives of various police units.
What he found was a Finland of our grandparents - the Finland of the Civil War and Second World War generations - in which consumption of substances such as opium, morphine, and heroin was commonplace.
There was recreational use of drugs as well, but very little. Pharmaceutical drugs were used, because times were hard. There was tuberculosis, insomnia, anxiety, and war.
It could be said that Finland was drugged onto the world map.

There was much heroin, but it was a prescription drug. Ylikangas mentions three rational reasons why so much more heroin was used in Finland than in the rest of Europe.
“Heroin was a good medicine for respiratory ailments - and Finland had plenty of them, in connection with a tuberculosis epidemic. Second, it was cheaper than other similar medicines, and third, the social problems linked with abuse of medicines had not got out of control in Finland.”
Heroin was a super-drug of the time of shortages.
Medicines containing heroin were taken by both young and old alike. There were cheap heroin pills, and Pulmona, a cough medicine containing heroin, was consumed heavily, because tuberculosis was a health problem well into the 1950s.
“Getting heroin was childishly simple”, Ylikangas says. “Its use could have got wildly out of hand, although there are fairly short traditions of abuse in Finland. In addition, the substance was contained in various types of mixtures, which were more difficult to abuse.”

The rest of the world looked at Finland with amazement in the 1930s.
The League of Nations, the predecessor of the UN, urged member states to give up heroin, but the Finland of Svinhufvud refused to do so.
According to medical authorities and the Finnish Medical Association, heroin was a cheap medicine, and no reasons were seen to place restrictions on it.
It could not be replaced by other substances.
Therefore, both domestically-produced heroin and imported versions were used.
Local pharmaceuticals firm Orion’s heroin tablets contained five myelograms of heroin. There was also Adapyrine from Sweden, Diffines from Germany, and Hemyphone from Switzerland.

While the rest of the world started to ban hard drugs, Finland repeatedly went against the trend.
After Finland joined the International Opium Treaty in 1936, wholesalers started hoarding goods intensely. Pharmacies filled their storerooms. The Ministry of Defence immediately ordered 1.5 kg. of heroin for its military pharmacies, and 5 kg. of cocaine.
Nevertheless, abuse of heroin and cocaine remained minimal; from the 19th century through the 1950s, the number one drug of Finnish addicts was morphine.

“There are long traditions in the abuse of morphine in Finland, and many were already hooked”, Ylikangas says.
It was only during the war that the use of heroin went ballistic.
But let’s not go to the front lines just yet.

The writing of history is naturally always selective, and always more or less ideologically-based.
Schoolchildren are always told how Hannes Kolehmainen, Paavo Nurmi, Ville Ritola, and other athletes "ran Finland onto the world map" in the 1920s and at the Stockholm Olympics of 1912, before the country was even an independent entity.
What has been bypassed is the extent to which the world’s first wave of cocaine-linked crime hit Finland in the 1920s.
In the aftermath of the World War and the Russian Revolution, all kinds of emigrants were operating in Helsinki: Russian nobles and military officers who had lost their money and their power, spies, and smugglers.
The economy was in terrible shape. There was no social security, so people had to find ways of making money.
Some started dealing drugs.

German pharmaceutical companies were on the verge of bankruptcy after the First World War.
To get out of the economic crisis, they sold large amounts of cocaine and morphine to shady characters, who smuggled the goods to St. Petersburg, via Helsinki. There was demand, because there were huge numbers of addicts in the postwar Russia of V.I. Lenin.
“Domestic demand could be satisfied largely by buying it from pharmacies. Then people bought it directly from German ships in the harbour”, Ylikangas says.
Some of the drugs transported on the Germany-St. Petersburg route stayed in Helsinki. Cocaine was available at prohibition era speakeasies, and under the table at restaurants.
“The activities were largely run by doormen. The product that was sold was powdered cocaine”, Ylikangas says.

The drug business was no small matter even compared with today.
In 1925, four kilos of cocaine were found in three police raids in Helsinki.
This is as much as Finnish police and customs authorities seized in 1995-1999.

In Helsinki, small-time drug barons were arrested, such as businessman Tahvo Käppi and a doctor, Kaarlo Kalske, both from Vyborg. They sold drugs by the kilo to Estonia.
Doctors wrote prescriptions for the upper class and cultural figures; before the Winter and Continuation wars, addicts were mainly doctors, nurses, businessmen, artists, lawyers, teachers, and officers.

It was the age of Finnish alcohol prohibition.
Cocaine, for instance, had not been banned.
According to a police report from 1928, drug addition looked like an upper class matter.
Present at a cocaine orgy at the home of Colonel Wennerholm were “the colonel himself, J. Kauppinen, young cadets, and girls. The girls were fed cocaine in oranges and sweets. The base of the thumb was used as a cocaine pit, where cocaine was deposited to be sucked.”
Colonel Wennerholm would actually have been a perfect character for an American crime movie of the 1950s.

Hitler invaded Poland in the autumn of 1939. Josef Stalin's Soviet Union occupied the Baltic States.
Finland responded to the perceived threat of a major war. It began to stockpile hard drugs with vigour.
The Defence Forces signed a contract with the pharmaceutical company Orion, which committed itself to keeping an amount of raw opium in its stockpiles that was equivalent to 150 kilos of pure morphine.
Cocaine, heroin, and morphine were ordered by pharmacies. The medical section of the Defence Staff ordered 50 kilos of morphine and 35 kilos of heroin - enough to produce seven million 5-mg. heroin pills.

The medical officers were still not satisfied: there was not enough of the hard stuff around.
Never mind, for relief was coming.
During the Winter War a ridiculous amount of drugs came to Finland. By the end of 1940, 1,511 kg. of opium alone was delivered to the military pharmacy in Helsinki.
It was supplied mainly by the American Red Cross and the Swedish state. In December 1940 there were 117,000 heroin pills, 469,000 morphine pills, 917 kg. of opium and 351 kg. of morphine.
There was certainly plenty of stuff for the Continuation War, which broke out in the following year.

“It was an interesting time with respect to the substances”, recalls Erik E. Anttinen, Professor Emeritus of social psychiatry.
Anttinen fought during the Winter War, the Continuation War, and the War of Lapland - first in the artillery and - after going to flight school - in the Finnish Air Force.
“Substances qualifying as hard drugs were handed out surprisingly freely, in my opinion. If someone had a cough, he might get dozens of heroin tablets, because it was an efficient cough suppressant”, Anttinen recalls.

Heroin was a wartime panacea, which was used for pain, cough, arthritis, and muscle aches.
Medics carried two ampules of cocaine in their bags, in addition to four ampules of morphine, 30 opium tablets, and 30 heroin tablets. Those on the front line were issued a package of five heroin pills.
Anttinen took heroin “a few times”. He recalls taking Pervitin (a methamphetamine produced by a Berlin pharmaceutical company) only once, in the summer of 1944, when he flew several combat missions a day in the Karelian Isthmus.
Whoa! Methamphetamine in a plane?
“They did tell me that I shouldn’t take too much for a longer period of time”, Anttinen says. “I don’t recall that there would ever have been any plane accidents caused by taking too much Pervitin."

On the front line, strong medicine is needed, especially for the wounded and for commandos.
All the same, Ylikangas was dumbstruck by the amounts of heroin that were consumed by the Finnish military.
During the Continuation War, 7-9 million Antineralgin heroin pills were consumed annually.
“To my knowledge, no country involved in a war had distributed heroin in such large amounts. The use of Pervitin was somewhat more selective”, Ylikangas says.

The German army had sharply curtailed its use of Pervitin already in 1941 because the substance had led to unexpected problems.
Soldiers experienced hallucinations. Some could not sleep, even though “it had been tested with German precision on both animals and people”, Ylikangas says.
Germany unloaded some of its Pervitin stocks in Finland. According to a secret letter of the medical department of the Defence Staff in August 1941, 850,000 Pervitin tablets were stockpiled by the Finnish Defence Forces.
In emergency situations, especially during the big Soviet offensive of 1944, they were used heavily - even by ordinary foot soldiers.

The Continuation War actually quite equalised the use of drugs.
On the front lines, small farmers and factory workers tried drugs that had previously been available only in Helsinki high society. Some got hooked.
After the war, special forces soldiers told about their experiences in the press and in books. One of them recalled an escape that took weeks while under the influence of amphetamines.
Another said that he had seen large buildings, dancing girls, and chandelliers on the front. One dispatch officer mistook snow-covered boulders for sheep.

After the war, in 1946, Helsinki was a restless capital, with plenty of shady people and crime brought on by the war.
There were nearly 15,000 break-ins during one year. There were divorces, violence, and a stumbling economy. Broken soldiers were institutionalised.
Heroin, amphetamines, and morphine had flowed from the front lines onto the street market, and military pharmacies were bulging with the stuff.
Heroin was used and sold in several cafes and restaurants in the cities. Groups of morphine users lurked in the park of Helsinki’s Old Church, outside the Church of St. Paul, and at the Hietaniemi cemetery.

Erik E. Anttinen, who had experienced three wars, studied to be a doctor.
In the summer of 1950 he was recruited to work at the Lapinlahti mental hospital in Helsinki.
“There were addicts from around the country, because it was a clinic of the Medical School of the University of Helsinki. There were especially many abusers of opiates”, Anttinen recalls.
“We tried to give them medicines that might be less addictive. We tried to listen to them and talk to them in order to ease the anxiety phase. Those people would sweat, and be in terrible pain.”

There were differing views on how many of the addicts had been wounded while on the front.
Erkki Jokivartio estimated that at least 60 per cent of the heroin addicts had been wounded. Doctors Achilles Westling and Jaakko Riippa studied the cases of 108 addicts after the war. Of them the dependency of only 14 was caused by treatment that they received for injuries in action.
In police questioning in the early 1950s, the addicts themselves estimated their numbers at about 1,000.
That was two generations ago.
Much less heroin is being used now, but the abuse of other drugs is much more common. In 2005 an estimated 14,000-19,000 people were believed to be hooked on hard drugs. About half of them lived in Helsinki. Three out of four were hooked on amphetamines.

As far away as UN headquarters in New York, people wondered how it was possible that Finland - a country of four million inhabitants - could consume as much heroin in one year in the late 1940s as other countries use on average in a quarter of a century.
In 1946, for instance, 99 kg. of prescription heroin was consumed in Finland.
Finland was not yet a member state of the UN.
Perhaps that is why the response that New York got from Helsinki was somewhat cool.
The message from Helsinki was Finland intended to continue using heroin, and in fact, it would need more than before - for reasons of public health.
What defiance! After all, this was a country which in subsequent decades has always crawled in front of whatever centre of power that happened to be issuing orders.

“That would probably not happen in Finland under the EU. Now directives are immediately implemented”, Ylikangas says.
Under Paasikivi, Finland finally gave in.
Finland wanted to join the UN. When heroin disappeared from the pharmacies in the early 1950s and the availability of morphine came under stricter control, addicts in Helsinki were in a panic.
Some would break into pharmacies. Others would tour rural pharmacies, which would sell hard stuff to those saying that they were war invalids.

Many doctors were also users.
Dr. Ailo Huhtala said in 1955 that about one per cent of Finnish doctors were drug addicts. According to statistics of the Finnish Medical Association, there were 2,381 doctors in Finland. This means that if Huhtala’s estimate was anywhere near the truth, there were 20-30 drug-addicted doctors in Finland.
“Among doctors there was always a tendency to try to deal with problems quietly among themselves”, Ylikangas says. “They were not hauled into police interrogations. At that time, those in high society were treated at home, or they were sent abroad for treatment.”
Ilkka Taipale, doctor and veteran political activist, believes that some of the addicted doctors had been hooked on heroin already during the war.
“One of the doctors who had been in drug rehab later became the director of the Hesperia Hospital.”

Heroin disappeared in the 1950s.
Drug addicts switched to Algidon, a prescription medicine similar to morphine.
“At first it was thought that it would not be addictive, but it was”, Anttinen says.
Algidon is actually a very powerful drug. People would die from abusing it. There were at least eleven sure cases. Some of the addicts of the time might still be alive.
“I know of at least one Algidon addict of the 1950s who is still alive”, Ilkka Taipale says.
He passes on an interview request, but there is no answer.
This is a pity. The request is still open.


Helsingin Sanomat / First published in print 5.4.2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Fin.../1135245022270

anyway, not about the Swiss Scene, but hopefully an interesting story.

Peace and Good Luck to us All!
 
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Great story, jspun. If you know your history, etc. Unfortunately, when it concerns drugs, history is forgotten or rewritten. My own grandmother was sent as a child to buy a ha'pence worth of opium from the jar displayed, as befitted its best-selling item, on the counter of the village chemist; no 'junkies' or drug crime in those bygone days.

Of course, most BLers prefer to speculate on the sex life of 'Foxy Knoxy'. Pornography is the new, approved opium of the masses. Keep on, jspun, your spelling is far less important than your vision.
 
Chalie Clean
Great story, jspun. If you know your history, etc. Unfortunately, when it concerns drugs, history is forgotten or rewritten. My own grandmother was sent as a child to buy a ha'pence worth of opium from the jar displayed, as befitted its best-selling item, on the counter of the village chemist; no 'junkies' or drug crime in those bygone days.

Of course, most BLers prefer to speculate on the sex life of 'Foxy Knoxy'. Pornography is the new, approved opium of the masses. Keep on, jspun, your spelling is far less important than your vision.

History is important and that is a cool story, Chalie about your grandmother and the village chemists- the BL sex threads are more popular (what happened to that victorian era opiate fueled prudishness?=D

Sam
Time to learn to take me a lot less seriously, I feel.
I love you too Sam,;) (ps your aveage Californian is stuck up, self-centered, and emotionally constipated- sounds like another Island I know;)

In all seriousness, my Euro (and ,mostly Brit and comrades from The Republic have provided me with more serious, lively, elevated discussion....compared to North Americans (yes even Canadians-though they have sensible HR policies in Vancouver, 1st and foremost, maybe Montreal and Toronto, too.) At the risk of sounding chessy, we do what we do for the sake of posterity, hence my rationale, you keep alive history amd examples of successful narco-tolerant societies and you dispell the old lie....that socities with liberal narco-use end in catastrophe.
 
It's an interesting point you make there, jspun, about how the Swiss experiment is denied what Thatcher called 'the oxygen of publicity' for 'political' reasons. Thatcher used the phrase to justify the blanket ban on anything said by 'IRA men' in the British media. Of course, with Ulster in turmoil, she could hardly deny their existence and Sinn Fein, the IRA political wing, was a legitimate political party with representatives elected as MPs to Westminster. ( although, as a matter of principle, they refused the oath of allegiance and never sat in the House of Commons.) In consequence, UK citizens suffered the absurdity of, say, Gerry Adams speeches only permitted on tv if an actor spoke his words.

30 years later, with Adams an established political figure and Martin McGuiness a serious candidate for the Irish premiership, it all seems very silly. Yet, while the motley 'encouragement to abstinence' 'Purple Gang' lobbies from NA to rehabs receive maximum press coverage, very few Britons - including those receiving or working in Drug Treatment - have much idea about what's happened in Switzerland. The prescription experiment has been a sensational success and welcomed by the electorate. The cantons have gone an awful long way toward solving their drug problem. This isn't news? What kind of politics makes for this strange conspiracy of silence?

A conspiracy in which, sadly, highly unpoliticised UK drug users collude. This is probably the most popular of the British online 'drug sites'. Yet jspun's excellent and highly informative thread has attracted less than 1,000 views. A thread on "chicks I could've fucked if I hadn't been so pissed" attracts over three times that in half the time. Online addict concentration goes on finding the best online pharmacy to buy codeine pills. Most have no thoughts they might, and ought to be entitled to heroin on prescription. Possibly, they're happy to be criminals.

As a wise man once said, what is is what's meant to be. Or, in simpler terms, you get what you deserve. Keep up the good fight, jspun, but remember you battle not only powerful established interests but the overwhelming apathy of our own.

I've only just read this thread. I have no interest in heroin, hence only reading it now out of sheer boredom. Just as I don't really care what the MDMA situation is like in the rest of the country & I know what it's like round here so I don't read the regional MD thread, I don't care how "fucked" people are so I don't read the "OH MY GOD I'M SOOOOO WASTED MAN" thread. Probably the same for a lot of people on here. I don't see why they should be somehow looked down upon because (in this case) they aren't heroin users & have no real interest in what Switzerland are doing with addicts.

You clearly know a shitload more about this than me but I still want to pull you up on one thing. One thing that always ends up getting on my tits.

"...ought to be entitled to heroin on prescription." Entitled to? Why?

I fucking love cocaine (if it's good quality). Should I be entitled to medical grade ching on prescription? As long as I go out & get myself proper addicted to it first?

I can understand the use of it as a tapered treatment but not as long term maintenance, no-one needs to be on heroin forever. They need help to get off it if they're that badly addicted that they need a prescription for it. It shouldn't be a case of "Ahh well, you're a full blown junkie now so stop scoring on the street & get your state-sponsored gear from your local chemist. Have a good day getting wasted" (btw - before anyone says "They already do this with methadone.", I don't think that's right either. That's just swapping one addiction for another.)

I'm not just trying to start an argument either (I know it probably seems that way lol), I genuinely want you to come back & tell me why I'm wrong. Edumacation n tingz init.
 
No you should be entitled to jailtime 8(... Clearly these harm reduction models are far more achieving then the backwards politics where the rest of the world has to go through. Yes you should be entitled to pharmaceutical grade product, drug use should be a free choice instead of the illegality it drowns in right now.

Other then that heroin leaves people physically addicted and cocaine leaves a rather large psychological impression behind. I'd rather see people have these drugs prescribed so they can gradually taper off. If they want to keep on using that's their choice, you're a drug user, I can't understand where you're coming from.

What do you think that is right then? The russian rehab model where they chain you to a bed and just leave you there? Not only is that unhealthy from a medical POV but it's also INHUMANE. (Not saying you do but just showing you both sides of the spectrum)

Very interesting thread, I have much to read.
 
No, I think that all drugs should be legal & I should be able to buy them OTC as I believe it is my choice what I put in my body. However, I don't think that when I then develop a problem with one of these drugs I should be given a prescription for them. So the legal status makes no difference. I think I should be allowed to BUY them in a shop, just as I can BUY them on the street the now. That is a completely separate issue to being prescribed them by a doctor.

I said "I can understand the use of it as a tapered treatment but not as long term maintenance, no-one needs to be on heroin forever." So your Russian rehab patter is a mile out. Prescribed short term to get you off it is fine, I can see no argument against that. Being "entitled" to a long term maintenance script is, in my opinion, not fine.

I don't see my drug use as really having any bearing on my opinion regarding prescribing people drugs that they themselves have gotten addicted to. I like using drugs, I would not expect a prescription for any that I might end up addicted to. Tbh, I don't even think people should be prescribed benzos just because they are already addicted to them, although in that case the potential for death is a valid reason, as far as I know coming off smack cold turkey would be horrible but not life threatening (correct me if I'm wrong, I may well be).
 
No, Parttime Crackhead, yours is a reasonable argument and shows, yet again, how people are the product of their time and its influences. Had you been born a few decades earlier, you could have gone to your GP and been given a prescription for cocaine - not a lotta people know that these crazy days when prohibition is taken for granted - and a hundred years ago you could have bought either opium or coke across the counter and been thought quite 'normal'..

It's up to you to decide which you think is more sensible. Under the old Rolleston system, people gave up their heroin scripts on average sooner than they do their black market habits/state sponsored methadone today. If you leave it to the individual to choose, and don't kick him into a 'law of opposition' by pushing your will onto him, everything happens naturally, as it should. The 'argument' gets diverted into gibberish like 'they'll give them their fags on the NHS next' and, in a period where the education system discourages thought, people follow like sheep with 'opinions' they're dumb enough to think are their own and reason goes right out the window. In my world, you'd buy whatever you want at cost plus reasonable profit from the pharmacy; as you can't, better that drug users should be deemed to suffer a 'medical problem' for which prescription allowance can be made than are treated as criminals for whom only prison is appropriate.

Now, tell me you disagree.
 
Again, PTC, you show again how we're a product of our times with your 'if I got a habit' bit. Why do you presume everyone should be 'tapered off' their usage? Would you demand the same for your coke and herb? Or is it somehow 'different' if you're personally affected?

Me, me, me - the mantra of our age. We live under a system designed to encourage division, prejudice and feeling superior for all the wrong reasons. We only think in terms within its approved limits and in consequence free minds are as rare as hen's teeth. My being considerably richer than you doesn't make me somehow a better man - smackhead, crackhead or fuckhead, we're all God's chillun and none of know very much at all about anything that matters.
 
I kind of agree with you. Although you do seem to be missing the fact that I think we should be able to BUY any drug that we want. I don't understand why it's OK to put someone on a long term script. Surely if they're at the point where they need a prescription just to be able to live their life then it's time to get off it? Therefore rapidly taper them off it. A lot of people making the same argument as you seem to think that people need heroin so they should get it on a script. They don't need it though, do they? They really really really want it, but they don't actually need it.

I wouldn't mind if they had to pay the standard rate for the drug, I do mind when (in Scotland anyway, I think you lot still get charged) they get their prescription for free.

I wouldn't demand the same for coke & weed. I would buy it as I do now. It would be nicer to be able to buy good stuff in a shop rather than shit stuff from a shady dealer but I would never expect the NHS to pay for me to have a ching habit, just as I don't expect it to pay for someone to have a smack habit.
 
No, I think it's rather the opposite. Few people want heroin and all the accompanying hassle and 'biopsychoscocial' drawbacks but some seem to need it. A lot of research still needs to be done before we come close to understanding the neurology and psychology of addiction.

But we're more or less in agreement. Let folk buy what they want and do what they want to alter their own consciousness and only punish them if they break the law and cause harm while under the influence. I don't buy the 'it wasn't me, it was the dope/drink/moon' excuses either.

Meanwhile, in downtown Zurich....
 
No, I think it's rather the opposite. Few people want heroin and all the accompanying hassle and 'biopsychoscocial' drawbacks but some seem to need it. A lot of research still needs to be done before we come close to understanding the neurology and psychology of addiction.

But we're more or less in agreement. Let folk buy what they want and do what they want to alter their own consciousness and only punish them if they break the law and cause harm while under the influence. I don't buy the 'it wasn't me, it was the dope/drink/moon' excuses either.

Meanwhile, in downtown Zurich....

They only need it after they have became addicted to it though. Therefore, break the addiction & break the need (easier said than done right enough). They don't just have a natural need for heroin.

But aye, the second point is bang on. As far as I'm concerned let people do whatever the fuck they want as long as they pay for it themselves & they don't cause any harm to other people. It's absolutely mental that you can be locked up for causing no harm to anyone at all, you can grow a plant in your house & get jailed. That's crazier than giving out free skag on the NHS. 1000 times crazier.
 
They don't just have a natural need for heroin.

Can you be so sure of that?

Some people appear to be predisposed to addictions. Sometimes it's heroin, sometimes other things.

Not necessarily saying they're genetically programmed to score a bag or buy a bottle of gin as soon as they progress from crawling and colouring books, but as mentioned above:
chalie clean said:
A lot of research still needs to be done before we come close to understanding the neurology and psychology of addiction.
 
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