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Nature of the interaction between piracetam and phenethylamines.

egor

egor

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I have been intrigued by this phenomenon for a long time now. The more I read about the combo, the more I think there is really something too it. I am interested in knowing if there is any danger contained within the marked potentiation. It seems that the effects of the phen combined with piracetem is increased by almost as much as a maoi would do. It also seems to change the nature of the experience.
So, ADD, what are your thoughts and experiences with this fascintaing combo??
 
I have no theories about the nature of the interaction, but I can certainly verify the potentiation.
DOB @ 3mg was out of body experience.
amphetamine is greatly potentitated and the come down is super easy as a result.
modafinil=ditto
MDA-normally 100 mg is a great, intensely euphoric dose for me (MDMA is useless). 50-75 is awesome with piracetam.
I've yet to try it before an LSD experience but I took ~800mg approx 2.5 hours into a ~75-90ug trip and it turned it quantitatively adrenergenic-ie, I felt totally in control, to the point of losing that "I am at the will of the universe" magic that is LSD.
I did not notice a significant exacerbation of mescaline effects, but M can be hit or miss anyway with dosing.
As stated elsewhere, Ketamine is null and void.
It would not surprise me if the racetams were found to interact with the dopamine system in some way. Or, perhaps someone here knows how the cholergenic/NDMA system and the DA system interact?
Registered independent, usually vote for cartoon characters or the green party
 
I remember reading a paper stating that giving nicotinamide or better the N,N-diethyl derivative with mescaline, reduced the amount of mescaline needed for full activity and also changed the subjective experience, making it more LSD-like (they gave an explanation of the effect by overlaying both mescaline & nicotinamide over the skeleton of LSD). It might possibly be something like that at work
 
fastandbulbous said:
I remember reading a paper stating that giving nicotinamide or better the N,N-diethyl derivative with mescaline, reduced the amount of mescaline needed for full activity and also changed the subjective experience, making it more LSD-like (they gave an explanation of the effect by overlaying both mescaline & nicotinamide over the skeleton of LSD). It might possibly be something like that at work
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I'm a little confused-Do you believe the nootropics are resembling the psychedelics structurally? Because they are really simple amino acid derivatives, at least the racetams.
Or are you implying some sort of MAOI-like effect, essentially giving the oxidases or reuptake transporters something else to work on?
 
racetams may be competetive/reversible MAOIs? That would explain a lot.

I myself wonder time to time how combining piracetam would be with some 2C's (the most the few reports give is thats 'its unpredictable' - what psychedelic experience isnt?!).
 
I'm a little confused-Do you believe the nootropics are resembling the psychedelics structurally? Because they are really simple amino acid derivatives, at least the racetams.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't know enough about nootropics to be able to say one way or the other, I just added that post so that someone with a lot more knowledge than me might be able to see if that was in any way significant.
 
samadhi_smiles said:
racetams may be competetive/reversible MAOIs? That would explain a lot.

I myself wonder time to time how combining piracetam would be with some 2C's (the most the few reports give is thats 'its unpredictable' - what psychedelic experience isnt?!).
Click to expand...

Prolonged exposure to -racetams can throw me (and several others) into an acute depressive state, so if it is a MAOI of any sort, it would likely be of the Selegiline variety (ie. useless for depression in my experience), since non-selective MAOIs tend to have a mild but certain antidepressant effect on me (talking of Harmaline/Harmine and Moclobemide here).

MAO-B inhibition tends to have scary (IMO) interactions with Phenethylamines, so that could shed more light on the issue.

Although I highly suspect that -racetam induced depression is more due to GABA and NMDA agonism than anything else.
 
samadhi_smiles said:
racetams may be competetive/reversible MAOIs? That would explain a lot.

I myself wonder time to time how combining piracetam would be with some 2C's (the most the few reports give is thats 'its unpredictable' - what psychedelic experience isnt?!).
Click to expand...

there are some Russian papers suggesting that piracetam is a MAOI in certain parts of the brain, however I have only read the abstract and I doubt that piracetam is a substrate for MAO and the modulation of the activity is a downstream effect especially as the inhibitory action is different in different parts of the brain, suggesting that piracetam is doing something else which in turn is modulating MAO a and b activity. In any case the MAO effect seems weak.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3137089&dopt=Abstract

an interesting experiment would be whether piracetam truly enhances DOX compounds which are not as vulnerable to MAO as the 2C's. the experiment would need sub threshold dosing of a dox and a 2c.
 
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egor said:
^^That is one of the papers that lead to my thinking piracetam may be metabolised by mao.
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As far as I know piracetam is not metabolised by mao or anything else, it is excreted unchanged. hence my doubts as to it being a substrate for mao, indeed I am unaware if any piracetam metabolite ever having been found.
which leads to the idea that something piracetam does indirectly effects mao activity if indeed that is the way it interacts with hallucinogens. I still favour the idea that the general increase in neurotransmitter levels receptor levels and the slowing of neurotransmitter turnover means that the effects of hallucinogens are enhanced.

the current best theory for piracetam action is that it effects membrane fluidity which explains how it is so non specific in its effects, however I am wary whenever CNS drugs are said to act through effects on the membrane structure, THC was before CB receptors were found, alcohol was before it was discovered it interacted with GABA... quite possibly piracetam and some of the other racetams is interacting with a known or unknown receptor.
 
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Well as I, and i know nanobrain know, for whatever reason, piracetam + DMT = "a no-no"...

Had it happen a couple times, while taking piracetam (daily i believe for the most part), think it would only happen when the piracetam was near "peak" levels, but a scary couple experiences (smoked and oral DMT w/rue extract) where it feels as if there's severe "mis-wiring" going on, like the radio would be on and i'd hear my own voice over the radio saying something, only it was a "very wrong" audio hallucination - hearing stuff on DMT is normal but this was different, felt "schizophrenic" like some entites/parts of myself got "detached" and decided "lets fuck with this guy!" , a strong feeling of "oh FUCK" like something "else" definitely has control over me (and at anytime can do stuff like touch my back/scare the fuck outta me) - but in a "bad way" thats unexplainable.

Trying to dose myself with GBL to save the day that feeling of "whoever's in control can prevent me from dosing this" causing my hands to shake uncontrollably as i'm trying to measure a dose and down it..ah...

"signals sent through the wrong wires" sounds about right when talking about DMT + piracetam..
 
Honestly, thats a feeling I get on aniracetam/piracetam/choline without any other drugs on board. Its an effect of what I gather (very unscientifically) is the end result of building up many many different chains of logic and pursuing all simultaneously. Brain overload.

I would of figured DMT would combine great with the racetams.
 
Yeah, the "brain overload" thing tends twist the scaled from self-reflection to self-mutilation - hence the depression (at least on my end).

These days I only use Oxiracetam in combination with Huperzine (which is one of the three nootropics that did anything positive for me) only if I needed to study hard while dealing with my current benzo taper. Oxiracetam definitely blocks the benzos' cognitive impairment without rendering them useless for panic attacks.
 
As unscientific as it sounds, I would look at the racetams as a sort of pre-amp for the psychedelic experience, that is, your brain is charged up on them and an adrenergetic substance placed into this mix results in a louder signal.
once again, does anyone know how choline turnover is related to the DA system?
and I would imagine that 2cI would combine rather nicely.
 
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