N.J. murder leads to proposed ban on 'bath salts'

[3rd_I_blind]

Way to ignore my main post and focus on my exaggerated metaphor..

If you want a decent discussion, you shouldn't use stupid and irrelevant arguments/metaphors. It's basically rule 1 of decent debating...

If drugs caused people to act in a certain way then why isn't every user acting in this way?

Major newsflash: Not everyone reacts the same to every substance, not everyone is bipolar and not everyone that is bipolar will kill someone while using MDPV. But just as not every antipsychotics or anticonvulsants has positive effects in treating bipolar disorder (or any other disorder, for that matter), not every substance will have the same positive/negative effects in every subject.

Perhaps the discrepancy of your opinion can be illustrated when taking alcohol as an example. Not everybody gets agressive when drunk, nor is everybody still driving while drunk. However, it is a fact that alcohol use in general causes more violence than if there would have been no alcohol. So just as with alcohol, MDPV will cause some individuals to act agressively. Some of those individuals might have done the same stupid shit sober anyway. But this doesn't change the fact that the substance can be blamed for a higher incidence of agressive events. Again, this is not to say someone that's drunk is not to blame i.e. responsible for his own actions. But in a general sense, the substance alcohol (or MDPV) can be blamed for a rise in agressive behavior (for instance).

 

[embers_fading]

He was diagnosed with bi-polar and by the admission of his own mother was paranoid, it doesn't sound like the drugs are the primary cause of what went on here.

The drugs likely did play a role in this. Stimulants can trigger severe mania and psychotic symptoms in people who have bipolar disorder. Of course, the bipolar disorder also likely played a major role here, but this guy was not doing himself any good by using these bath salt stimulants. Sometimes when drugs are combined with mental illness terrible things like this happen. It's difficult to tell whether it was more the drugs or more the illness here, or if it was just the combination of the two that caused this guy to get this sick. The article mentions that he already had big problems with drug use in the past, but it does not mention how poorly or how well he had been doing before he started using the bath salts. Heck, when bipolar people go manic they usually seem/act like they are on drugs even if they are clean.

No, im saying that if a person knowingly takes a drug they are fully responsible for anything that follows. If a person took so many GABAergics they wake up in some random town with no memory of why or how.. they shouldn't have taken so many GABAergics. If someone takes so much speed they don't eat or sleep and end up going psychotic.. they shouldn't have taken so much speed / not slept, etc.. If someone drinks so much they puke, they shouldn't have drunk so much..

If someone unknowingly ingests a drug which causes some negative reponse then a) it's the person who poisoned thems faults or b) it's an accident and no1 (and nothing) is to blame.. accident.

It is possible that he was not himself and not thinking properly when he took the bath salts. When bipolar people go manic their judgment becomes extremely skewed; they will do things that are very out of character for them, things that they would normally never, ever do. Of course, there is not enough information in the article to find out if the guy was fine on his meds before he started taking the drugs or if he was manic when he started using the bath salts. If he was very hypomanic/manic when he took the drugs, it could be argued that he was not in control of himself and was not capable of making rational decisions and considering the negative risks and consequences of those decisions when this happened.

 

[rickolasnice]

I thought it was relevant..

If somebody forgets to put petrol in their car before setting off to an important meeting, therefore making them late.. who is to blame? The car? The petrol? The PERSON?

If somebody has a bad day at work then goes home to beat their spouse.. who is to blame? The job? The spouse? The PERSON?

If somebody doesn't cook their meat properly, despite having knowledge of how it should be done, and gets ill. Who is to blame? The meat? The cooker? THE PERSON?

Perhaps the discrepancy of your opinion can be illustrated when taking alcohol as an example. Not everybody gets agressive when drunk, nor is everybody still driving while drunk. However, it is a fact that alcohol use in general causes more violence than if there would have been no alcohol.

Yah. It's up to the user to know this and to accept full responsibility for their actions, including getting violent, if they decide to drink.

Drugs have no free will, they make no decisions.. they can't be blamed.

To blame users stupid decisions on drugs is a major cop out and pretty pathetic.

 

[3rd_I_blind]

To blame users stupid decisions on drugs is a major cop out and pretty pathetic.

How fucking ignorant can you possibly be!?

Take a look at some quotes from my own posts (below) and tell me: where I have ever said that it could all be blamed on the drugs? It's people like you that are pathetic; viewing the world in only two shades. Of course when you use an addictive substance, you willingly take the risk of becoming addicted. But it is bullshit to say hardcore addicts are still totally responsible for everything that happens because of that first hit. I truly feel sad for you, lacking the intelligence and empathy to understand that people with severe psychiatric disorders can not be fully held accountable for all of their actions. And I feel even more sad when browsing through your posts again, seeing the pointless metaphores and the way you repeat your view ad nauseam. You must be a real winner...

there is a difference between blaming the drugs or laying total responsibility with the drugs.

either way it is not a simple 'the drugs are to blame' nor 'the drugs are absolutely not to blame'.

just as much as it is bullshit to claim he is innocent because 'the drugs did it', it is also bullshit to disregard drug use as a factor.

it is never 100% the drug's fault, or 100% the bipolar disorder. It is a combination of all of it.

if i say drugs are partly to blame, i do not mean the ones using them have no responsibility for their actions.

this is not to say someone that's drunk is not to blame i.e. Responsible for his own actions.

 

[rickolasnice]

Take a look at some quotes from my own posts (below) and tell me: where I have ever said that it could all be blamed on the drugs?

I didn't say you did.. i'm saying users are the only one responsible for any actions that they take while under the influence of it because it was their choice to take it in the first place.

I get the feeling you have done something you regret while being under the influence of drugs and refuse to accept full responsibility for your actions, somehow making you feel better about yourself. I know i have said / done things under the influence that i now regret.. but i am fully aware that all and everything i did was my own fault, and not the drugs, as it was my choice to take them in the first place, knowing that they may affect me in such a way.

 

[phenethylo J]

How come they never try to ban alcohol when some drunk tard shoots some one or hits them with a car while driveing drunk?

 

[Mora Fiend]

^ Because they tried it for 14 years and it was a enormous failure, much like the War on Drugs.

 

[rickolasnice]

How come they never try to ban alcohol when some drunk tard shoots some one or hits them with a car while driveing drunk?

Because alcohol brings in enourmous amounts of tax moneys..

Probably also because the people that decide these things drink themselves..

And obviously alcohol isn't a drug.. it's a drink