☛ Official ☚ [Mushrooms Subthread] Different Strains & Cultivation

[Ismene]

So basically I’m asking has anyone got considerable (i.e. at a range of different dosages) experience with both P. cubensis and P. semilanceata, and if so how did they compare?

I've got a lot of experience with both and couldn't really tell you any difference. But I do agree that high dose and low dose mushroom trips can vary a great deal.

Whether the other alkaloids make any difference I'm not sure - the theory is psilocybin converts to psilocin in the body anyway so psilocin/psilocybin affect you in the same way. And as for whether the brain can detect the tiny amounts of norbaeocystin while it's being overwhelmed by psilocin - I doubt it.

I think the key is to capsule the cubensis and the semilanceata, then ask someone else to put them in different jars so you have no idea what you are taking and then see whether you notice any difference. If you know you're taking cubensis then you already have an expectation which will massively affect your trip.

 

[Deadprez]

The only difference i've ever noticed between the two types of mush i've had, Hydro and Outdoor. Outdoor was my first trip and was it the best...i'm patiently waiting to get some this year. As for the exact differece, outdoor made me extremely happy and feel amazing, i just played xbox for like 3 hours straight laughing my ass off because it looked so real and i was having such an intenese game. As for Hydro, everythings very dark and grim, i notice more sadness in things and worry, strange.

 

[Amberthefrog]

Over here last's year semilanceata were a lot stronger and visual than they were in the last few years...

Funny you should say that as I’ve noticed exactly the same thing (East England).

Whether the other alkaloids make any difference I'm not sure - the theory is psilocybin converts to psilocin in the body anyway so psilocin/psilocybin affect you in the same way. And as for whether the brain can detect the tiny amounts of norbaeocystin while it's being overwhelmed by psilocin - I doubt it.

True enough, but just because psilocybin converts to psilocin doesn't mean they affect you the same. For example both heroin and codiene convert to morphine but the affects, especially heroin vs morphine, tend to be reported as different beyond just the dosage difference.

Assuming the active dose of baeocystin is similar to that of psilocin (and that is an assumption on my part because I don't actually know), then some species for example semilanceata and cyan/azurscens have fairly significant amount of it.

 

[bluedolphin]

a cube is a cube. 'strains' are differentiated by growth patterns, habits, and appearance.

Why wouldn't they be differentiated by effects as well? I mean a pot plant is a pot plant, but we all know they are selected based on more than growth and appearance.

Perhaps by "habits" you mean different mushrooms' habits to create different ratios and amounts of active chemicals, mostly Psilocin and Psilocybin.

I believe even within Cubensis strains, there is enough variability in the Psilocin/Psilocybin ratio, as well as enough variability on other less predominant chemicals -- but still active enough to color the trip.

If it were all set and setting I couldn't have eaten mushrooms out of the same batch multiple times with similar effects, controlled for set and setting. But in fact, this is usually the case in my experience.

Pure Psilocin did produce less anxiety and felt cleaner on my body than almost any shroom trip I've had. One notable exception was a batch of Koh Samui mushrooms I once had. I found these to be colorful, light-hearted, and easy on the body.

Why would some shrooms kick in within 10 minutes of ingestion (like Psilocin does) while others take 45 minutes to notice first alerts, unless "Shroom A" had more Psilocin in it, while "Shroom B" maybe had more Psilocybin and other lesser actives?

I have eaten many a mushroom and it's impossible for me to believe that they are all the same Cubensis. On the rare occasion I am shopping for mushrooms, I know which ones to look for and if the man knows the strain, I know which ones I'd rather pass on and which one's I'll jump on.

I mean look at all the Cubensis strains... if a Pink Buffalo can look so different from an Amazonian, why is it so hard to believe they might feel different as well?

Until all these strains are scientifically measured for alkaloid content, I think the empirical evidence points strongly towards "different strains = different trips".

 

[dread]

Hydro mushrooms don't exist. That's just what ignorant people call homegrown mushrooms.

I've never had very intense trips on semilanceata. It's a lot more mellow mushroom IMO.

 

[Amberthefrog]

Why wouldn't they be differentiated by effects as well? I mean a pot plant is a pot plant, but we all know they are selected based on more than growth and appearance.

Perhaps by "habits" you mean different mushrooms' habits to create different ratios and amounts of active chemicals, mostly Psilocin and Psilocybin.

I believe even within Cubensis strains, there is enough variability in the Psilocin/Psilocybin ratio, as well as enough variability on other less predominant chemicals -- but still active enough to color the trip.

If it were all set and setting I couldn't have eaten mushrooms out of the same batch multiple times with similar effects, controlled for set and setting. But in fact, this is usually the case in my experience.

Pure Psilocin did produce less anxiety and felt cleaner on my body than almost any shroom trip I've had. One notable exception was a batch of Koh Samui mushrooms I once had. I found these to be colorful, light-hearted, and easy on the body.

Why would some shrooms kick in within 10 minutes of ingestion (like Psilocin does) while others take 45 minutes to notice first alerts, unless "Shroom A" had more Psilocin in it, while "Shroom B" maybe had more Psilocybin and other lesser actives?

I have eaten many a mushroom and it's impossible for me to believe that they are all the same Cubensis. On the rare occasion I am shopping for mushrooms, I know which ones to look for and if the man knows the strain, I know which ones I'd rather pass on and which one's I'll jump on.

I mean look at all the Cubensis strains... if a Pink Buffalo can look so different from an Amazonian, why is it so hard to believe they might feel different as well?

Until all these strains are scientifically measured for alkaloid content, I think the empirical evidence points strongly towards "different strains = different trips".

Interesting stuff. Whilst I’ve always been a bit sceptical about strain differences
I suppose you are right and difference is plausible.

On your first point though, Cannabis was originally two separate species, so it's not really a fair comparison.

 

[Ismene]

True enough, but just because psilocybin converts to psilocin doesn't mean they affect you the same. For example both heroin and codiene convert to morphine but the affects, especially heroin vs morphine, tend to be reported as different beyond just the dosage difference.

They don't convert to morphine in the same amounts or the same rate tho. I would think that psilocybin is always going to convert to psilocin in the same amount and at the same rate.

 

[Ismene]

If it were all set and setting I couldn't have eaten mushrooms out of the same batch multiple times with similar effects, controlled for set and setting. But in fact, this is usually the case in my experience.

No, if you know they are from the same batch then you already have a setting. I used to think this until I took some capsules from a batch I'd always believed were "not visual" thinking they were from the "visual" batch and I had a very "visual" trip.

The only way to eliminate your mindset is to capsule them, put th em in different jars and ask someone else to give you them from the jar he picks.

I think the empirical evidence points strongly towards "different strains = different trips".

I think the empirical evidence points towards "Psilocybin = different trips. Depending on how you feel mentally, depending how you feel physically, depending on the time of day, depending on if the sun is shining or the sky is grey, depending on what other drugs you've taken recently etc etc etc". Psilocybin can give massively different effects all by itself.

 

[Amberthefrog]

Psilocybin can give massively different effects all by itself.

QFT

 

[bluedolphin]

Personally I think I've tripped enough times on all sort of psychedelia and certainly various strains of mushrooms to be able to control for all variables, even the variable of the power of suggestion.

Of course this doesn't help me prove anything. And I'm not saying lots of experience will necessarily lead to my conclusion either.

Also with 4acoDMT in its pure form I experience far less diversity in my trips. Yes the set and setting are different but I would never say "this 100mg bag of 4acoDMT is different than this 100mg bag of 4acoDMT". The effects are almost always the same unless something drastically occurs in my emotional state. But this is obviously something that can be controlled for given the whole spectrum of effects.

If this is true for pure 4acoDMT, why do mushrooms appear to be so much more variable, unless different shrooms = different trips?

 

[psood0nym]

Was about to say the same thing. I've found this to be true with synthetic 4-ho-DMT and 4-AcO-DMT, but not with mushrooms. Still, these chems may be more susceptible to set and setting because the DMT signature tends to make them more "rough and tumble" psychedelics, esp. the 4-ho. Though in my experience I've found them to produce reliable effects along the major metrics of psychedelia. In mushroom experiences the proportions of visuals, stimulation, and body euphoria to one another all vary between batches.

 

[Amberthefrog]

Also with 4acoDMT in its pure form I experience far less diversity in my trips. Yes the set and setting are different but I would never say "this 100mg bag of 4acoDMT is different than this 100mg bag of 4acoDMT". The effects are almost always the same unless something drastically occurs in my emotional state. But this is obviously something that can be controlled for given the whole spectrum of effects.

If this is true for pure 4acoDMT, why do mushrooms appear to be so much more variable, unless different shrooms = different trips?

Good stuff. I've got no experience with the synthetics yet so I can't compare.

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree, as another who has had lots of experience with synthetics and with "naturals." The synthetic 4-HO-DMT is a single isolated chemical, and although of course every trip is different, the qualities and style of the trip is always the same. I could pick it out by its effects from any other 4-sub-tryptamine. Mushrooms, however, have a spectrum of multiple alkaloids, and my theory is that they're combining and synergizing to produce unique effects, much like marijuana strains do, except with fewer chemicals to produce the variations. What I can say for absolutely certain is that 4-HO-DMT isolated is a different experience from mushrooms. They are definitely different, reliably, every time. I would also be willing to bet that psilocybin (4-PO-DMT) has different, but of course similar, effects as psilocin (4-HO-DMT), even if psilocybin turns into psilocin in vivo at some point.

This is all speculation on all sides, of course, and this discussion has come up many times. It's still interesting to talk about though. But I think it's a little more than just the power of suggestion that so many experienced trippers report the same types of differences.

 

[The Wizard]

I ate 3.5 grams of a Thai strain of Psilocybe a few years back and felt vastly different effects than what mushroooms had given me in the past. In the past most my mushroom trips had been very mellow and clearheaded and rarely confusing. However, these Thai mushrooms gave me a speedy, confusing, overwhelming trip.

Has anyone else experienced shrooms that give the effect the Thai gave me?

The few times I've eaten mushrooms since that experience have been mellow, easygoing trips and I kind of miss the energetic, spaced out, ultra euphoric effect of those Thais. I'd sure love to revisit them... I never knew eating just an eighth could be so damn strong.

 

[psood0nym]

The synthetic 4-HO-DMT is a single isolated chemical, and although of course every trip is different, the qualities and style of the trip is always the same. I could pick it out by its effects from any other 4-sub-tryptamine.

What I can say for absolutely certain is that 4-HO-DMT isolated is a different experience from mushrooms. They are definitely different, reliably, every time. I would also be willing to bet that psilocybin (4-PO-DMT) has different, but of course similar, effects as psilocin (4-HO-DMT), even if psilocybin turns into psilocin in vivo at some point.

I've used the same set of basic premises to conclude that though 4-ho-DMT and 4-AcO-DMT are experientially distinct from each other, that neither is distinct from mushrooms. The range of experiential effects that different batches of mushrooms cover subsumes the qualities of both the 4-ho and 4-AcO within its scope. In other words, I can easily imagine eating a wide range of different mushrooms and having a trip indistinguishable from a trip with either of these two chems, but the narrower variance within the experience of either isolated chem means the qualities of each overlap less with one another.

As far as unexpected synergies are concerned. I think its relevant to mention that, in my experience, the combination of 4-AcO-DMT and 4-ho-DMT produced the compromise between the effects of each that one would expect. In other words, no unexpected synergies between a major active constituent of mushrooms and another chem that's likely to be a close analogy to 4-po-DMT. I would speculate that the variance between mushroom batches owes mostly to the proportions of the known active constituents and their interactions with the baeocystins--and maybe even with chems that produce no psychoactive effects in isolation but cause physiological changes, not felt subjectively in isolation, but that nevertheless influence the action of the known active constituents i.e. there is some synergy.

And to The Wizard: From my own experience and the reports of others, it sounds like the Thais probably had a proportionally high 4-ho-DMT content, as this chemical seems to produce the effects you're talking about. Of course that's highly speculative, as Xorkoth alludes to above. In speculating, I assume that 4-po-DMT would be closer in action to the smoother and mellower 4-AcO-DMT, due to the fact that it is theorized to be, like 4-AcO, at least partially a prodrug of 4-ho-DMT, and because mellow mushroom trips, of course, have some reason that they're more mellow, and suggesting that "greater mellowness" is a quality of 4-po experiences is the simplest explanation for those differences.

 

[Ismene]

Has anyone taken different strains of mushrooms blind? So someone has handed you capsules of dried mushrooms and then said "Tell me the strain"?

 

[dread]

I'm quite convinced different mushroom *species* have considerable differences. Different cubensis strains could have subtle differences, they have yet to manifest themselves to me though.

But looking at different species, not only do they have different combinations of the most active alkaloids psilocin and psilocybin, but what about the loads of other "inactive" substances they contain.. You could isolate any substance from a mushroom, try it and find it inactive in itself, but no one can say how all these chemicals alter the effects of the active alkaloids. We just don't know enough about the mechanisms of the brain yet.

Same is true regarding to any psychoactive plant material vs. isolated psychoactive substances, how do we know the plant material doesn't contain hundreds of substances that are thought to be inactive but in fact all contribute to the effects of the plant?

 

[Ismene]

But looking at different species, not only do they have different combinations of the most active alkaloids psilocin and psilocybin, but what about the loads of other "inactive" substances they contain..

Yeah but the brain doesn't have hundreds of different receptors to deal with every single alkaloid in every single mushroom. The bulk of the alkaloids are going to be simply eliminated and expelled in your urine rather than having any effect on the brain.

Allcoholic drinks can contain many different alkalods but at the end of the day it's the active principle - alcohol - that matters. Wine gets you drunk like whisky gets you drunk like beer gets you drunk. Each contains different alkaloids but only one matters.

The trouble is that psilocybin has a vast range of effects by itself. If the sky is grey one day the trip is going to be completely different to if the sun is out. It's nothing to do with whether it's "thai" or "columbian" although it's easy to tell yourself that - I've done it myself. It's only when you've taken each species blind several times that you realise you can't tell any difference.

Until you've taken them blind in capsules where you don't know what you are getting you arn't going to have an accurate opinion on this.

 

[Fishface]

Have you actually done comprehensive blind tests then, Ismene?

 

[Ismene]

Yeah I had 3 jars full of capsuled thai, columbian and those sclerotica thingys. For months I was absolutely convinced the sclerotica wern't as "visual" as the thai.

Then I asked a mate to hand me the dose so I didn't know which it was and see if my opinions were valid. I was wrong every time. The sclerotica gave me the most "visual" mushroom trip of my life. I was out of my fucking tree.

If you know what you're taking it has a massive effect on the trip - no matter how much you tell yourself it doesn't.