Mother uses Ky. law to pull daughter from heroin

webbykevin said:
No, someone requiring insulin for diabetes has an illness, you have a methadone addiction, it's completely different.
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I disagree with the term "addiction" for those who are otherwise clean and stabilized (and are in a MMT program). I'm also on methadone for 3 1/2 years and I consider myself physically dependent on the stuff, but not addicted.

When I think of addiction to anything (not just drugs), the following criteria and behavior is usually key to determining if it really is an addiction:

Addiction implies obsession.

- For example, if you're addicted to something (or someone) you often can't stop thinking about it and planning for your next fix.

Addiction implies negative long term consequences

- What I mean by this is that any addictive behavior (not limited to drug use) tends to produce pleasure, relief, and other payoffs in the short run, but pain, grief, misery, and more problems in the long run.

Addiction implies a lack of control

- For example, once the alcoholic picks up that first drink, (s)he is finishing the entire bottle.

Addiction implies denial

- As addicts begin to pile up problems at work and at home - virtually everywhere - as a result of their addiction and their neglect of ongoing problems, they inevitably begin to deny two things: (1) that the drug is a problem they can't control and (2) that the negative consequences in their lives have any connection whatsoever to their drug use.

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I doubt Guido is obsessed with his methadone, or that he cannot stop thinking about it.

With respect to long term consequences, I believe that MMT has benefited Guido in the long run, and has not made things worse than before he started.

Re. lack of control - If Guido is receiving carries, I don't think he'd drink them all in one sitting for obvious, fatal reasons.

Finally, denial doesn't apply here because chances are that ever since Guido started MMT, things in his life which would be considered important (finances, relationships, lifestyle, etc.) have been steadily improving.

At worst, IMO, Guido is not an addict (re. methadone), but he's also not Mr. Clean (since methadone is an opioid, thus, it causes the body to form a physical dependency to it). More like, he's managing his previous habit by way of opioid substitution so that he can get on with (the other parts of) his life.
 
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ro4eva said:
I doubt Guido is obsessed with his methadone, or that he cannot stop thinking about it.
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That's because its available, takeaway the supply and what happens ?
If there is no medical/biological reason behind it, ie the body doesn't need it to stay alive, then it's an addiction imo.
 
Also, I've known many junkies over the years and the impression I got from pretty much all of them is that methadone is a worse drug to be on than pure grade heroin, and if the clinics offered a choice they would rather have free Heroin.

It's the illegality and hence the cost and the constant chase for it that makes the lifestyle suck, not the drug.
 
Physical dependence and psychological addiction are two separate things. The physical addiction is what makes opiates so damn hard to get off, but even if you aren't physically dependent on opiates, they're just a psychologically addictive as anything else too. It's a bitch.

I was on methadone for 3 years awhile back. In that time I wasn't using anything else or drinking at all, I was going to 12 step meetings and living an otherwise healthy, normal life. I definitely wasn't psychologically "addicted" to methadone. I was on the same dose for a long period of time and aside from a slight feeling in the morning, I wasn't getting high from it at all. This is why I was able to successfully taper from it without falling back into using any mind-altering drugs.

Now, I'm on Suboxone, which in some ways differs from methadone, but it's used the same way with a similar dosing schedule most of the time and they do have quite a bit in common with each other. The main similarity...They're both long-acting potent opioids that don't produce nearly the euphoric high than many others do. You don't have the peaks and valleys in mood that you'd get with other shorter acting drugs that "get you high"....

Being "addicted" to drugs is a subjective thing anyway...and IMO, there's a huge difference between someone using drugs to get high everyday and someone on ORT. It's nobody's business but the person taking the medication. This is a very controversial issue in recovery, but the whole point of getting off drugs is because it's destroying your life. If you can live a normal life and take care of your relationships and responsibilities, where does someone else get off trying to tell you you're "not clean"!

I'd rather be on drugs than be clean and a self-righteous dick!
 
BlueHues said:
I'd rather be on drugs than be clean and a self-righteous dick!
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Why does being clean mean someone is a self righteous dick ?

I went down the opiate path after crushing the soft tissue between the vertebra in my spine and being prescribed high dose (60mg) pure codeine pills with a pretty much unlimited script.

After 3 years of that I was then put on oxycontine and then morphine patches, after a year of that I had a real problem that had nothing to do with back pain but everything to do with opiate addiction/dependence.

Now, after 6 months of really hard work and the help and support of some folks in TDS I have completely removed all opiates and pain killers from my life and deal with my pain through meditation and physio. That's what I was after and slowly tapering and learning to manage my diet and my mind was the key to success, along with the desire to be clean. What i didn't want was to just replace the drugs i was addicted to with some other drug that I would have to take for years, that was just shifting the goal posts imo but not winning the game.

But there is nothing self righteous about my position now, I'm just offering my experience (which is all I really have to go on) and I feel that if I was still having to take a drug every day I would in no way be able to call myself clean.
 
webbykevin said:
Why does being clean mean someone is a self righteous dick ?
... self-righteous crap ...
But there is nothing self righteous about my position now, I'm just offering my experience (which is all I really have to go on) and I feel that if I was still having to take a drug every day I would in no way be able to call myself clean.
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No, someone requiring insulin for diabetes has an illness, you have a methadone addiction, it's completely different.
Click to expand...

That's because its available, takeaway the supply and what happens ?
If there is no medical/biological reason behind it, ie the body doesn't need it to stay alive, then it's an addiction imo.
Click to expand...

Just offering your experience?
 
^I wasn't even necessarily calling you a self-righteous dick. This is very contentious issue for thousands of people in recovery all over the world. It goes way beyond this thread. Some people think that people on maintenance who are members of 12 step programs shouldn't be able to say they are "clean" if they're on maintenance, mainly because they think that they're "actually clean" and don't want anyone they consider isn't stealing the spotlight from them! At least, that's what it seems like to me. I was just saying that I'd rather be on maintenance and living my life as person who treats everyone with respect than some asshole who tries to get in everyone else's business. It wasn't directed at anyone specifically.

Sure, there's people on super high doses of methadone and benzos at the same time that are getting high everyday, and I think it's a joke for someone like that to say that they're clean, but it's not my place to decide. Someone on maintenance who's taking it as prescribed and not behaving like a junkie is completely different IMO. It's all about living your life with integrity to me, not what medication you happen to be on.
 
BlueHues said:
^I wasn't even necessarily calling you a self-righteous dick. This is very contentious issue for thousands of people in recovery all over the world. It goes way beyond this thread. Some people think that people on maintenance who are members of 12 step programs shouldn't be able to say they are "clean" if they're on maintenance, mainly because they think that they're "actually clean" and don't want anyone they consider isn't stealing the spotlight from them! At least, that's what it seems like to me. I was just saying that I'd rather be on maintenance and living my life as person who treats everyone with respect than some asshole who tries to get in everyone else's business. It wasn't directed at anyone specifically.

Sure, there's people on super high doses of methadone and benzos at the same time that are getting high everyday, and I think it's a joke for someone like that to say that they're clean, but it's not my place to decide. Someone on maintenance who's taking it as prescribed and not behaving like a junkie is completely different IMO. It's all about living your life with integrity to me, not what medication you happen to be on.
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Great post.
 
When you get on chronic pain maintenance you sign a paper saying you will become habituated and feel sick without your medication. You will feel beyond awful without your medication. Does that make them an addict?

It made me an addict when I decided my dose would be stronger if I injected it and supplemented it with other drugs. So its really my fault. If had told my doctor I was feeling a desperation to relieve my pain it wouldn't have progressed as far. If I had done that I would have fucked myself forever in terms of getting pain medication for relief.

I do believe a balance can be achieved. I know that's pretty cocky of me to say I think I can go back on CPM and not have the same shit happen. I don't plan on taking the ER medications anymore though and asking for my ER meds to be changed to all instant even if it means a lot less medication total.

I digress though there are people who take there medicine and live better and they are doing just fine. I envy them as I have not achieved that. I sure would like to have the ability to work and play sports all the time like I used to and desire to.

So being physically dependent on a medication does not make someone an addict. I would say addiction is when you desire a buzz. Desire for intoxication is my definition of addiction.

In my opinion drug use is when you use drugs to improve your life and how you feel. Drug abuse is when you take so much of the medication you hurt yourself mentally or physically and that's really just self abuse.

As far as 12 step programs I don't buy that all or one notion at all. Ive been to detox for alcohol 3 times, but now I can drink just fine. The only difference between then and now was that my life was so bad I couldn't not consume something and alcohol was what was avalible and I got physically dependent and continued despite the damage.

When I went to detox I was ready. If I had not been ready I would have just drank when I got out. Court imposed drug treatment only kept me clean and sober until I no longer was at risk of doing serious time. My last trip to alcohol detox was voluntary and now I can drink just fine and its been over 6 years.

I think methadone is a great thing for some people. It allows people to rebuild their lives. Opiate dependence aint no joke and is not easy to treat and sometimes MMT last longer than abuse.

I should add some people take low doses of done and continue to shoot smack. Those people are addicts. People also take a lot of benzos with a higher than necessary dose to nod. Once again addict.

However if someone takes methadone to stop shooting smack and does it right I don't think they are an addict, but simply afflicted with opiate dependence which is almost impossible for the average human to conquer and even those who do kick MMT are better on it. It also prevents relapse and ODs.

But I say judge not lest ye be judged. I personally take my hate off to those in MMT and in recovery. Im clean right now, but Im already planning my relapse which is to be a few years away this time, but I know myself and I just want to get my ducks in a row again. Im an addict.
 
dopemaster said:
When you get on chronic pain maintenance you sign a paper saying you will become habituated and feel sick without your medication. You will feel beyond awful without your medication. Does that make them an addict?

It made me an addict when I decided my dose would be stronger if I injected it and supplemented it with other drugs. So its really my fault. If had told my doctor I was feeling a desperation to relieve my pain it wouldn't have progressed as far. If I had done that I would have fucked myself forever in terms of getting pain medication for relief.

I do believe a balance can be achieved. I know that's pretty cocky of me to say I think I can go back on CPM and not have the same shit happen. I don't plan on taking the ER medications anymore though and asking for my ER meds to be changed to all instant even if it means a lot less medication total.

I digress though there are people who take there medicine and live better and they are doing just fine. I envy them as I have not achieved that. I sure would like to have the ability to work and play sports all the time like I used to and desire to.

So being physically dependent on a medication does not make someone an addict. I would say addiction is when you desire a buzz. Desire for intoxication is my definition of addiction.

In my opinion drug use is when you use drugs to improve your life and how you feel. Drug abuse is when you take so much of the medication you hurt yourself mentally or physically and that's really just self abuse.

As far as 12 step programs I don't buy that all or one notion at all. Ive been to detox for alcohol 3 times, but now I can drink just fine. The only difference between then and now was that my life was so bad I couldn't not consume something and alcohol was what was avalible and I got physically dependent and continued despite the damage.

When I went to detox I was ready. If I had not been ready I would have just drank when I got out. Court imposed drug treatment only kept me clean and sober until I no longer was at risk of doing serious time. My last trip to alcohol detox was voluntary and now I can drink just fine and its been over 6 years.

I think methadone is a great thing for some people. It allows people to rebuild their lives. Opiate dependence aint no joke and is not easy to treat and sometimes MMT last longer than abuse.

I should add some people take low doses of done and continue to shoot smack. Those people are addicts. People also take a lot of benzos with a higher than necessary dose to nod. Once again addict.

However if someone takes methadone to stop shooting smack and does it right I don't think they are an addict, but simply afflicted with opiate dependence which is almost impossible for the average human to conquer and even those who do kick MMT are better on it. It also prevents relapse and ODs.

But I say judge not lest ye be judged. I personally take my hate off to those in MMT and in recovery. Im clean right now, but Im already planning my relapse which is to be a few years away this time, but I know myself and I just want to get my ducks in a row again. Im an addict.
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Great post, and lots of respect to you for admitting that you're an addict. My admiration and trust for you has gone up because you chose to tell it like it is. This is a quality that many of us are lacking.

Many addicts will deny their addiction in an effort to preserve self-integrity. They need to realize that it's okay to not be perfect.
 
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ro4eva said:
I disagree with the term "addiction" for those who are otherwise clean and stabilized (and are in a MMT program). I'm also on methadone for 3 1/2 years and I consider myself physically dependent on the stuff, but not addicted.

When I think of addiction to anything (not just drugs), the following criteria and behavior is usually key to determining if it really is an addiction:

Addiction implies obsession.

- For example, if you're addicted to something (or someone) you often can't stop thinking about it and planning for your next fix.

Addiction implies negative long term consequences

- What I mean by this is that any addictive behavior (not limited to drug use) tends to produce pleasure, relief, and other payoffs in the short run, but pain, grief, misery, and more problems in the long run.

Addiction implies a lack of control

- For example, once the alcoholic picks up that first drink, (s)he is finishing the entire bottle.

Addiction implies denial

- As addicts begin to pile up problems at work and at home - virtually everywhere - as a result of their addiction and their neglect of ongoing problems, they inevitably begin to deny two things: (1) that the drug is a problem they can't control and (2) that the negative consequences in their lives have any connection whatsoever to their drug use.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I doubt Guido is obsessed with his methadone, or that he cannot stop thinking about it.

With respect to long term consequences, I believe that MMT has benefited Guido in the long run, and has not made things worse than before he started.

Re. lack of control - If Guido is receiving carries, I don't think he'd drink them all in one sitting for obvious, fatal reasons.

Finally, denial doesn't apply here because chances are that ever since Guido started MMT, things in his life which would be considered important (finances, relationships, lifestyle, etc.) have been steadily improving.

At worst, IMO, Guido is not an addict (re. methadone), but he's also not Mr. Clean (since methadone is an opioid, thus, it causes the body to form a physical dependency to it). More like, he's managing his previous habit by way of opioid substitution so that he can get on with (the other parts of) his life.
Click to expand...

This is why I refer to myself as being buprenorphine dependent, and not addicted. Even though some people would argue I am heavily addicted to buprenorphine. IDRGAF, it's more about not using heroin = success for me.

webbykevin said:
That's because its available, takeaway the supply and what happens ?
If there is no medical/biological reason behind it, ie the body doesn't need it to stay alive, then it's an addiction imo.
Click to expand...

So if someone's a pain patient, it makes being opioid/opiate-dependent not an addiction, but if their pain goes away, they are all of the sudden addicted as soon as the medical reason for using is gone?

webbykevin said:
What i didn't want was to just replace the drugs i was addicted to with some other drug that I would have to take for years, that was just shifting the goal posts imo but not winning the game.
Click to expand...

You're still doing that, except the source of the "other drug" is endogenous, not exogenous. This is why exercise/eating/meditating are rewarding; endogenous oipoid peptides.
 
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Captain.Heroin said:
You're still doing that, except the source of the "other drug" is endogenous, not exogenous. This is why exercise/eating/meditating are rewarding; endogenous oipoid peptides.
Click to expand...

If I found a way to somehow extract my own endogenous opioids and bottle them for personal use, would the bastards try and make possession of that bottle illegal ? you know I bet they would, That's how fucked in the head these wankers are.
 
webbykevin said:
Why does being clean mean someone is a self righteous dick ?

I went down the opiate path after crushing the soft tissue between the vertebra in my spine and being prescribed high dose (60mg) pure codeine pills with a pretty much unlimited script.

After 3 years of that I was then put on oxycontine and then morphine patches, after a year of that I had a real problem that had nothing to do with back pain but everything to do with opiate addiction/dependence.

Now, after 6 months of really hard work and the help and support of some folks in TDS I have completely removed all opiates and pain killers from my life and deal with my pain through meditation and physio. That's what I was after and slowly tapering and learning to manage my diet and my mind was the key to success, along with the desire to be clean. What i didn't want was to just replace the drugs i was addicted to with some other drug that I would have to take for years, that was just shifting the goal posts imo but not winning the game.

But there is nothing self righteous about my position now, I'm just offering my experience (which is all I really have to go on) and I feel that if I was still having to take a drug every day I would in no way be able to call myself clean.
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Your acting like a self righteous dick. I am happy you got off opiates. But it doesnt give you the right to criticize people who choose to go on maintenance. We are all just trying to live our life in a little peace.
 
Concern

I am this girl's sister. She has a great mother who has done everything for her. Robin has done nothing but been a great mother, and Candice was a great kid, and a great sister. Growing up there were no signs, no hints. She got involved with the wrong person, and the family was blind-sided by it because nobody thought it would happen to our family. Candice was a straight A student, and usually the one to tell me when I was in the wrong. She used to push me to be better, look better, do better. When she was forced into treatment, she was upset at first, but she wanted to get clean herself. It wasnt just about making someone do something, it was about saving the life of your child.
 
I am sorry about your experience, but I want to make it clear, your mother is nothing like the mother in this article! If you saw how candice had been getting, and how she had tried herself and failed to make it through rehab more than once, of her own free will, you would see things differently. Candice wanted to get clean, but wasnt doing it, wasnt making it through programs that would help her, the mother in this article did what she could because she was scared for her daughters life!
 
He was trying to make her use it with him while she was trying to get clean. He would not respect that she was trying to get clean.
 
Hey candicesister welcome to bluelight!! Its really nice of you to stop by and comment. If you dont mind answering some questions im curious about some of the things not clarified in the article.
1. How is candice doing now?
2. How long has it been since she entered the treatment talked about in the article?
3. How did the law work after the judge accepted the petition? Did the police arrest candice? Where was she taken and held ect..

Thanks
 
In America, we're not supposed to lock adults up because their parents disagree with their lifestyle. We can't let emotions cloud that principle.
 
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